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Offlineoldschoolhead
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size of cubes=lost potency?
    #2819927 - 06/23/04 04:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

ok..so alabama is doing great.. we have found many many a cube this summer already.. BUT.i have a question..
and yes i know every active mushroom growns  with different potency.. BUT. .lets say we have 1 field.. and the active cubensis mushrooms are very potent.. would the larger ones keep potency just in larger weight? or would they loose? i know however there may be no DIRECT answer to this. just wondering what your experience(s) are?

:crazy2:


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Offlineshibby1169
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: oldschoolhead]
    #2819962 - 06/23/04 05:10 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

the bigger they are, the less u take. the bigger ones normally have a good amount of psilocin in them. dont take risks.


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Invisible@cro
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: shibby1169]
    #2819994 - 06/23/04 05:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What the fuck are you talking about? Don't take risks?
There's nothing poisonous about psilocin. Psilocin is needed for your trip. Psilocybin doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, psilocybin is converted to psilocin after ingestion which can then travel around and work its magic.
And as for the bigger ones being less potent, I'd like to see your data.

I'm not trying to flame, but WTF?

Peace


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Invisibletranced2
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: @cro]
    #2821420 - 06/23/04 04:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I thought psilocybin is only produced up until the veil tears. I believe he is saying the huge ones that are opened and grown would be less potent than a smaller one with viel closed.


Potency = amount of psilocybin/weight of specimen


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: oldschoolhead]
    #2821520 - 06/23/04 05:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

my experience is that the "loss" in potency from a mushroom that was let grow past it veil breaking time, is not a factor. you wont even notice any loss in potency. take it like you normally would, by weight.

peace & potency
Casil


--------------------
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~Casil



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OfflineGumbyM
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: oldschoolhead]
    #2822326 - 06/23/04 10:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Cubensis reach maximum potency right after the veil breaks. They stop producing psilocybin after this happens. As far as losing potentcy, no they won't lose any unless they're in the sun or heated up(heat destroys psilocybin).


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: tranced2]
    #2822834 - 06/24/04 02:25 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Read the posted paper here by Beug and Bigwwod or Bigwood and Beug, both 1982 or so ont he arious levels of psilocybine poency from one to ten in four flushes of home grown varieities vs. natural outdoor grown shrooms.

I sun dry cubes here all of the tiem without much pitency loss. you have to o the worms eat the caps. I posted that story here also about the flies, the shit the spores, the ants, etc.

Pictorials even your grandparents would be proud of.

mj


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Invisible@cro
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: Gumby]
    #2822841 - 06/24/04 02:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Gumby said:
Cubensis reach maximum potency right after the veil breaks. They stop producing psilocybin after this happens.




Would you mind showing me your reference?
As far as I know, it is thought that this is the case by some but there is no data other than, subjective, bioassays and a big bandwagon.

Peace - @cro


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: @cro]
    #2822906 - 06/24/04 03:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Time to bust open a nice morsel of theory.

Fisrt of all. One should make it clear when a theory is so to avoid passing a statement as fact.

Here's my theory on the matter...all of which is theory based on an education in biology, chemistry and shroomology.

Regarding potency and veils. I think that I will present a general case to build the base for my theory. Take into account the rate of growth of a fruit body per time. Also take into account the rate of psilocin/psilocybin synthesis and oxidization. I assume that for practical purposes the rate of synthesis is constant and related to the overall mobilization of energy and directly related to the rate of mass increase. I propose the rate of oxidization is inversely proportional to the increase in mass.

This is my explaination for the above. It is known that cAMP is a biochemical that induces pinning. cAMP is a signaling molecule in both glycogen synthesis (inhibits) and glycogenolysis (upregulates). Glycogenolysis then leads eventually to the production of ATP (energy). I believe it is this mobilization of energy which allows the fungi to form hyphael knots and eventually fruit bodies. The fungi needs energy to form the protein structure to build the mass of the mushroom. It goes to reason that other growth related processes are also upregulated along with the increase in available ATP. These processes should include psilocin/psilocybin synthesis and peroxidase, catalase, and superoxide dismutase or more generally anti-oxidants.

So here's the story line:

The mushroom is increasing in size as well as creating psilocybin, psilocin and anti-oxidants. During this stage of growth potency remains reletively stable. Then there reaches a point in which the rate of growth decreases. At this point the rate of psilocybin, psilocin and anti-oxidant synthesis decreases. This deacrease marks a point of increased potency loss due to both the reduction in psilocybin, psilocin synthesis as well as an increase in oxidization due to a decrease in anti-oxidant synthesis. I think that the actual rate of degradation varies greatly depending on the environment. To most I would challenge the ability of one to even discern the difference in a blind test. Generally it may be thought that a good reference for this point is the breaking of the veil. I suggest that the breaking of the veil is not an accurate point of reference due to factors that influence this event. The factors being environmental as well as strain specific. Through experience I have seen many fruits open their veils early but continue to grow well beyond this point without a noticed decrease in the rate of mass increase. As well I have seen that some fruits retain their veils to a very late point in growth

All in all I think that this veil potency theory is more of a rule of thumb. I think a better determination would be to watch the rate of growth of the fruits. Most importantly this theory is an un-tested theory and is mostly speculative.
_________________________________________________

As for size:

I assume that the potency of a fruit is largly dependant (disregarding strain, flush number, and other non-identical factors) on the rate of oxidization of the fruit. Oxidization of a fruit takes place at the interface of the fruit with oxygen and is directly related to the surface area of the fruit. So simply, the surface area to mass ratio of a large fruit is smaller than that of a small fruit. It follows that the rate of oxidization of a large fruit is proportionally less than the rate of a small fruit when considering size.

Joshua


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: Gumby]
    #2822920 - 06/24/04 03:22 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

>As far as losing potency, no they won't lose any unless they're in the sun or
>heated up(heat destroys psilocybin).


Sorry, but this statement also isn't correct. Psilocybin is quite temperature hardy, it can easily sustain temperatures of boiling water for short times without disintegrating. A practical example for this is that one can prepare a tea by boiling the ground mushrooms which is at least as potent as if one was to eat these ground mushrooms.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: Anno]
    #2822936 - 06/24/04 03:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I like mushroom tea...it makes me feel all psilly inside.

Joshua


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: Anno]
    #2822942 - 06/24/04 03:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Check this out.

I heard a story tonight about a method of ingestion that I had never heard of before.

One takes a large spoon and makes a mini oil bath or alcohol bath. Then one takes a quantity of chopped shrooms. Then one adds oil or alcohol and gently heats. With heating the extraction takes place. One then ingests the resultant fluid to trip.

Ever hear of anything like that before?

Joshua


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: Joshua]
    #2822945 - 06/24/04 03:36 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Also remember that baby Psilocybe cyanescens ay 30-40 in a fresh ounce will get ten or more people fried as opposed to four to six mushrooms in a fresh ounce which would ony get 4-6 people high.

Baeosystius loses 80 percent in dryig.

AS Anno noted you can make tea, eat them in speghetti or soup or stew and get really enebriated without much potency lose.

mj

Againt o t others. Find the paper I posted here. If not it should n be i my forum at http://www.thenook.org

mj

Thanks joshua. i hope most of our fellow shroomerites understood what you said.


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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: Joshua]
    #2822950 - 06/24/04 03:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Good to see you in here :smile:
I think this is the general idea behind reasoning out the size vs potency controversy.  In fact it makes quite a bit of sense.  I just see people saying this veil breaking thing all the time, I think I even said it a few times  :blush:, But there really has been no studies of any kind on this that I am aware of.  I think it started with someone with the same logic as you and has just been a bandwagon thing ever since, one person tries to propose a theory and the rest is history, it's fact from then on out.
Here's a question for you.  If psilocybin is a secondary metabolite then couldn't we also see a build up of it with age?  As primary metabolites are broken down, they are partly converted to secondary metabolites, which, a lot of times, are the alkaloids we come across.  For example, it is well known that potency of peyote increases with the age of the cacti because it takes time for these alkaloids to build up. 
Just another thought.

I'll see you in a couple weeks.
Peace - @cro


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: Joshua]
    #2822951 - 06/24/04 03:41 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

>Ever hear of anything like that before?

No, but since according the MERCK the solubility of psilocybin is best in water, I'll stick to my tea.

the quote from MERCK index:
" Sol in 20 parts boiling water, 120 parts boiling methanol; difficultly sol. in ethanol. Practically insol in chloroform, benzene. "


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Invisible@cro
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: Joshua]
    #2822957 - 06/24/04 03:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I've heard of people putting mushrooms in alcohol before but I've just never really liked the mix of the two, although it should work ok.  I've mixed the two (not in a concoction) before but the ride home in a cop car was not a fun thing to do while tripping  :crazy2:  At least they didn't know I was.
And the oil seems strange I wouldn't think it would be too soluble in that.

Peace


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: Anno]
    #2823006 - 06/24/04 04:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, it sounded like it was more of a freebase melting to me...the things people get confused.

Joshua


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: @cro]
    #2823013 - 06/24/04 04:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If psilocybin is a secondary metabolite then couldn't we also see a build up of it with age? As primary metabolites are broken down, they are partly converted to secondary metabolites, which, a lot of times, are the alkaloids we come across.




I would agree. I wish I knew more about the biochemical pathway of psilocybin and psilocin.

Joshua


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"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2823021 - 06/24/04 04:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

http://jeremybigwood.net/JBsPUBS/JBScientific/VariationOfPsi/

A link to the paper MJ refers to.

Hey MJ can I call you by your first name?

Joshua


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"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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OfflineGumbyM
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Re: size of cubes=lost potency? [Re: Anno]
    #2823086 - 06/24/04 04:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well I'll be damned. I'm just relaying what I've read in the past. Don't shoot the messenger :x


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