Home | Community | Message Board


Out-Grow.com - Mushroom Growing Kits & Supplies
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop for: Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,395
Loc: Ontario, Canada
The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived
    #2819356 - 06/23/04 12:46 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

One of the main "tools" of science, aside from the Scientific Method itself, is the reductionist approach. It is arguable that science could never have progressed as far as it has, and likely would not continue to progress, without the ability to pick apart the Whole into its constituent Parts and then analyze those parts separately. This approach, unfortunately, habbitually ignores Meaning. At its greatest, science should not attempt to provide Meaning in the theories it predicts.

With its drive to separate the Parts from the Whole, science must toss aside all (or most) parts not currently being investigated. Although it does become relavent at some point, it is not very constructive to take the surface temperature of a star in the Andromeda galaxy into account while examining the composition of rock here on Earth. This, I think, is the main reason why Meaning is not something science can provide. The best science is not intuitive.

So what place, then, does science have in the achingly Human search for Meaning?

"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure." -- Albert Einstein

If science must only focus on the parts, and in general on only one part (or a small subset of parts), it can not provide Meaning in any way as Meaning is derived chiefly from the Whole and how each part interacts to create the whole. As long as science regularly views Humans (or, at least, the Human consciousness using science) as separate from Creation as a Whole...it can not provide us with even a glimmer of what it means to be Human, a part of Creation. Of course that only speaks for the present state of science...and as we all know, nothing ever stays the same :smirk:

I think that, should science and its methods progress enough in the future, we will be able to derive some Meaning from our scientific theories...one day. Certain areas of science are beginning to take a serious look at "the whole" and what effect or purpose (which I can consider Meaning) each part plays in "the whole". It may be that, some day, we will have mathematics powerfull enough to describe Creation as a whole without removing Humans as a separate part. On that day, I think, we will have a profound insight in to why we are here.

Food for thought, as always :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: trendal]
    #2819413 - 06/23/04 01:02 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure." -- Albert Einstein

i think it would be cool to find that the certain variations of air/wave pressure could be universally enjoyed. .. like there was some biophyiscal response to certain combinations of frequencys/variations.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,395
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: BleaK]
    #2819420 - 06/23/04 01:06 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

i think it would be cool to find that the certain variations of air/wave pressure could be universally enjoyed. .. like there was some biophyiscal response to certain combinations of frequencys/variations.

Exactly!

By ignoring the "whole", which (with music) includes the listener, and focusing in on just the mechanics of the music itself (by treating it as a variation of wave pressure) science misses any chance at deriving Meaning from the explanation/theory.

If we had a theory robust enough to describe both the wave pressure AND the human response...then perhaps we could find some Meaning :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: trendal]
    #2819494 - 06/23/04 01:31 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Take your negative attitude and insults somewhere else  :mad:


Edited by Shroomism (06/23/04 01:46 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 64,512
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: trendal]
    #2819522 - 06/23/04 01:38 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

ahh such a refreshing and insightful post  :laugh:
I think that one day we will reach a point where science and spirituality can merge harmoniously.. and the scientific method can be transformed to include the spiritual implications of technology and significance of everything as a whole.. the necessity to create right-brained technology which flows in harmony with nature, or enhances it. The knowledge that all things are sacred and connected in every way imaginable would bring a dramatic change in the way ?science? functions. It will evolve and become a single entity.. one that communicates telepathically, and has access to vast archives of universal knowledge, one that uses advanced processes of logic, rational thinking and cognition, but also maintains a creative spirituality. 

As far as the science of the future.. personally I think we can find some meaning in sacred geometry..













--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemycil
Stranger
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: trendal]
    #2819723 - 06/23/04 02:49 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Science isn't about "Meaning" with a capital M. It's about going to the moon, inventing new medicines, extending the human lifespan, so on and so forth. Can you define what you "mean" by "Meaning"? Are you talking about a world where you no longer have questions to ask about your relation with the universe? Is that really a world you want to live in?

Also, I object to your assertion that science does not give us an idea of what we are in relation to the universe. We have turned the atomist speculation into indisputable fact. We have expanded human conception of history. We used to believe in a 4000 year old earth build around human beings. Now we speculate a 20 000 000 000 year old universe of vast and unimaginable scale. We understand the molecular basis for life - genetics. We have constructed primitive artificial intelligences which give us enourmous capability to communicate and analyse data - computers. The list is endless. Where would YOU be without science?


Edited by mycil (06/23/04 02:55 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisible2Experimental
Male User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: trendal]
    #2819741 - 06/23/04 02:55 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

if you lived back in platos times with these ideas you would be a well known philosopher...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemycil
Stranger
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2819757 - 06/23/04 03:01 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

No he wouldn't. That post is full of sloppy undefined terms. "Parts", "whole", what the hell is he talking about? It sounds more like an anti-intillectual diatribe than anything else.

"With its drive to separate the Parts from the Whole, science must toss aside all (or most) parts not currently being investigated"

This sentance makes no sense. Example, please?

"is not very constructive to take the surface temperature of a star in the Andromeda galaxy into account while examining the composition of rock here on Earth"

Like I said, anti-intillectual crap, combined with a seriously deficient use of capitalisation in an attempt to create verbal authority.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,395
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: mycil]
    #2819765 - 06/23/04 03:05 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisible2Experimental
Male User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: mycil]
    #2819775 - 06/23/04 03:10 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

well um it made alot of sense to me... even if I diden't agree with 100% of it


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemycil
Stranger
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: trendal]
    #2819777 - 06/23/04 03:10 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Defend yourself, scoundrel! *sound of sword and scabbard*


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: mycil]
    #2819873 - 06/23/04 04:04 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I knew it was you Sclorch, you puppet, you!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: Swami]
    #2819959 - 06/23/04 05:10 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Not I, Sir!

Maybe it's "K".... back from the dead.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: trendal]
    #2819986 - 06/23/04 05:28 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Here is the catch though....

Unless you can directly experience the whole, and every aspect of that whole, the only way you have to learn anything about the whole is to break it down into parts or different aspects, learn about them, and how they relate to the others...but you can never be sure you learned everything there is to learn about them, or how they relate, so you can never be sure you finally decifered the whole, with out the ability to check your findings by directly experiencing the whole and all its aspects to make sure you've got it right. Thus without full knowledge of the whole its very hard to attach meaning to its parts. Atleast in an objective since, you can attach whatever subjective meaning you disire, but it may or may not be accurate when compared to the ojective meaning of the whole. So again you never know if you've got the right meaning, or the full meaning so you can never know the whole, unless you already knew it completely before starting...and unfortunately we dont seem to find ourselves in that position, and if we did...why bother to make the effort in the first place? no matter what we do, without prior and full knowleged of the whole the only thing that will ever be certain...is that nothing is ever certain.

Sincerely,
That which is...and has no choice but to be.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis (Retired)
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 25,716
Loc: Iceland
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2822372 - 06/23/04 11:16 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"We have turned the atomist speculation into indisputable fact"
there are no indisputable facts.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemycil
Stranger
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2822728 - 06/24/04 01:41 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

But the doesn't the information content of the whole require a mind exponentially larger than the whole to comprehend it?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,395
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: mycil]
    #2822731 - 06/24/04 01:44 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Godel's theorem :wink:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,849
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: mycil]
    #2822747 - 06/24/04 01:51 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mycil said:
No he wouldn't. That post is full of sloppy undefined terms. "Parts", "whole", what the hell is he talking about? It sounds more like an anti-intillectual diatribe than anything else.




So, for you, then, the thread should be titled "The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Not Derived". :lol:  :rolleyes:

Anyways... I'm tending to think that meaning isn't implied. Meaning itself does not exist anywhere but the mind. What do you make of that? Well, what you make of that is different than what he makes of that, and is different than what I make of it. My understanding of any one thing or everything does not have an equal understanding somewhere else.

We have all followed different pathways which have brought us to perceive differently than others. That isn't to say that there isn't similarities between different sets of understandings.... however.. each concept exists in its own space, completely independant of every other concept.

I draw a symbol and assign it a meaning. In a sense, I created that symbol. I defined what that symbol meant. However, the meaning I assign that symbol cannot be transferred to any other conscious perceiver as it exists in my mind. The point is,  the symbol itself does not carry, on its own, any sort of attached meaning. I can communicate, if possible, some of the meaning that I implied on this symbol to others... but what justifies said meaning as the ultimate, undeniable meaning for that symbol?

I'm not presenting some clear and consise point here, obviously, but rather exploring some thoughts that are a part of a collection of concepts that aren't unlocking so easily for me right now. Let's say... that symbol... is a stop sign.

Through observation, if we are intelligent enough, we could perceive patterns relevant towards the meaning of the symbol, the stop sign, and begin to understand its meaning. For example, watching cars and the way the drivers in them react to this sign... but, still, the meaning still is not being implied by the sign itself. The drivers have constructed the signs meaning, it has been passed on with communication and observation... the meaning is still existing entirely in the minds of the perceivers....

So, then, is meaning meaningless? Is there something that has constructed meaning for this universe, this thing known as life, this phenomenon known as consciousness? There has to be some reason we have come to find the meanings that we have found... our understanding keeps advancing, becoming more unclouded and more reflective of reality... are we making something out of nothing.... or maybe, perhaps this existance is carrying implied meaning... I think I've went past a line where no answers come at this point in time. :lol:

:nut: Carry on...

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,395
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2825043 - 06/24/04 08:01 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

You could probably use "purpose" in place of "meaning" with what I'm talking about here.

What does it "mean" to be a part of creation/existence?

or

Do I (and everything else) have a purpose?

To me, the obvious answer is YES :wink:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,944
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: The Whole, the Parts, and the Meaning Derived [Re: trendal]
    #2825256 - 06/24/04 09:26 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I agree that the value-free, value-neutral, value-avoiding model of science that we inherited from physics, chemistry, and astronomy, where it was necessary and desirable to keep the data clean and also to keep the church out of scientific affairs, is quite unsuitable for the scientific study of life. Even more dramatically is this value-free philosophy of science unsuitable for human questions, where personal values, purposes and goals, intentions and plans are absolutely crucial for the understanding of any person, and even for the classical goals of science, prediction, and control.

As a relevant sidenote in response to the statement in your thought-provoking post, regarding the 'holes' of Science and it's analytical system(s); I believe it is important to recognize the occult models pertinent to the metaphysical/spiritual/'meaningful' sheaths over the logical/scientific/physical explanation which is merely reductionistic.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Amazon Shop for: Scales

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Meaning?
( 1 2 all )
Viaggio 1,160 21 07/05/04 05:42 AM
by Brugman
* Why evolution isn't a scientific theory.
( 1 2 3 4 ... 13 14 all )
Mr. Mushrooms 10,118 267 04/20/09 05:22 PM
by zouden
* from a scientific materialist perspective, can life have real meaning? Deviate 1,001 18 09/06/05 10:32 AM
by crunchytoast
* Ludwig van Beethoven slaphappy 1,188 14 10/24/06 05:59 PM
by Fospher
* Scientific Rant : Abortion, Stem cells and Animal testing wyldeman007 1,328 11 01/16/09 08:36 AM
by Lakefingers
* How comfortable are you with the possibility that you mean nothing?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
Ratci 6,268 165 12/08/08 10:57 AM
by Icelander
* Finding meaning in EVERYTHING...do you?
( 1 2 all )
MOTH 3,137 29 04/23/05 05:16 AM
by MOTH
* Scientific Proof of God daimyo 1,885 18 03/11/06 06:01 PM
by SkorpivoMusterion

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
2,241 topic views. 0 members, 6 guests and 11 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Edabea
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.113 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 16 queries.