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Thomas Envisio
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A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+-
#28192903 - 02/18/23 11:30 AM (11 months, 3 days ago) |
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Hello DIYers . . .
I realize some of you are highly creative and you think outside of the box. I need instructions on how to safely take out the carbon bubbles from beer, and still have a product that is satiating to most peoples' palettes. If I can do that first, I'd then like to learn how to safely alter the acidity level, so people don't get "heartburn" or acid-related problems.
What would be a realistic, honest path here?
Cheers!
Edited by Thomas Envisio (02/24/23 01:40 PM)
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koraks
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beer, Wine, & Liquor [Re: Thomas Envisio] 1
#28193133 - 02/18/23 02:15 PM (11 months, 3 days ago) |
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Leave it uncapped for a day.
If people don't like it, serve it to the British. They're more familiar with this concept.
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Thomas Envisio
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beer, Wine, & Liquor [Re: koraks]
#28193913 - 02/18/23 10:56 PM (11 months, 2 days ago) |
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Not a bad idea.
Does anyone have a more chemistry-related method?
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Thomas Envisio
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beer, Wine, & Liquor [Re: Thomas Envisio]
#28202585 - 02/24/23 01:36 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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Anyone?? Anyone at all??
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geokills
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: Thomas Envisio] 1
#28203679 - 02/25/23 08:40 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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If you are wanting to remove the CO2 bubbles in attempts to remove the carbonic acid, that likely will not have a major affect on overall pH. Beverage fermentation produces CO2, which reacts with H2O to create H2CO3 (carbonic acid) in solution. Letting the solution go "flat" by allowing the CO2 gas bubbles to escape might allow some H2CO3 in solution to break down back into CO2 + H2O, but the affect on overall pH will probably be exceedingly minimal, as carbonic acid is a pretty weak acid to begin with.
Winemakers use tend to use potassium bicarbonate and/or malolactic fermentation using a malolactic bacterial culture to reduce acidity.
Quote:
Addition of 3.4 grams of potassium bicarbonate per gallon will reduce acidity by 0.1%. This material may be added immediately before drinking and cold stabilizes more easily than a wine treated with calcium carbonate, but has the disadvantage of raising the pH more. A reduction of about 0.2% is a practical maximum. About 70 to 75% of the acid reduction will occur immediately and the remainder during cold stabilization. A salty or bitter taste will be evident in the wine from potassium ions when used at the upper levels. Potassium carbonate may also be used (2.4 grams per gallon will lower acidity 0.1%), but most of the research indicates a preference for using potassium bicarbonate. You will get foaming when it is used because of the CO2 released.
Source: https://www.thebeveragepeople.com/deacidification-wine-potassium-bicarbonate.html
Quote:
A malolactic fermentation is essentially a controlled bacterial fermentation with a selected malolactic bacterial culture. It is something separate from the alcohol fermentation and is usually started at the tail end of a yeast fermentation or later. The malolactic culture slowly ferments malic acid into both lactic acid and CO2 gas. Not only is lactic acid not as tart as malic, there will be less of it when the fermentation is done, by about half. The other half is dissipated from the wine as CO2 gas. Some types of wines are routinely put through a malolactic fermentation for flavor considerations, but not all wines are well suited for a malolactic fermentation. For this reason, you should use malolactic fermentations with caution when used for the sole purpose of reducing wine acidity.
Source: https://blog.homebrewing.org/reduce-wine-acidity/
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Thomas Envisio
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: geokills]
#28204639 - 02/25/23 08:31 PM (10 months, 26 days ago) |
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This is a bit off-subject. Blood Into Wine.
https://watch.plex.tv/movie/blood-into-wine
What other improvements can now be made?
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the astronaut



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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: Thomas Envisio]
#28207009 - 02/27/23 04:09 PM (10 months, 25 days ago) |
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If you don't add priming sugar before bottling it won't get carbonated.
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Thomas Envisio
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: the astronaut]
#28207558 - 02/28/23 12:44 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
the astronaut said: If you don't add priming sugar before bottling it won't get carbonated.
Are you referring to beer, wine, and/or liquor? Can you elaborate?
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the astronaut



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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: Thomas Envisio]
#28209919 - 03/01/23 05:40 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Sorry I was referring to beer as wine and spirits are not carbonated.
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Thomas Envisio
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: the astronaut]
#28211944 - 03/03/23 12:57 AM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Why are none of the beers sold in stores un-carbonated, in your view?
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geokills
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: Thomas Envisio]
#28212314 - 03/03/23 10:39 AM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Technically, priming the beverage such that it is a live product and "bottle conditioned" helps protect the beer from oxidation. As a consequence of the CO2 produced from the yeast, having no where to escape the container, the gas is forced into the liquid and the beverage becomes carbonated.
Secondarily, purveyors carbonate beer because it is a general preference, however as koraks noted, there are "cask style" ales that are brewed more or less flat and sometimes served through a nozzle that aerates the liquid to simulate some measure of carbonation, although to me it doesn't at all taste carbonated, rather just froths it up a bit.
You can also find a limited selection of nitrogenated ales on the shelf in well stocked stores, which are more creamy, without the carbonic acid or bite of the big bubbles on the tongue that one would experience from a typical carbonated beverage.
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Thomas Envisio
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: geokills]
#28212361 - 03/03/23 11:15 AM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Thank you for these tips! I just don't want my customers to be burping and farting, while also having to take a bathroom break every 35 minutes. I want my customers to feel classy, clean, and sophisticated.
Any further tips are much appreciated!
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the astronaut



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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: Thomas Envisio]
#28213097 - 03/03/23 08:12 PM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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In my opinion about un carbonated beer is that it's generally unappealing, like a uncarbonated coke. It would be hard to sell I'd imagine.
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Thomas Envisio
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: the astronaut]
#28213440 - 03/04/23 12:24 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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What could be substituted in its place to be even more appealing? Let's get deep with the options and take our time.
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koraks
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: Thomas Envisio] 2
#28213479 - 03/04/23 01:57 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Thomas Envisio said: I just don't want my customers to be burping and farting, while also having to take a bathroom break every 35 minutes. I want my customers to feel classy, clean, and sophisticated.
I think hospitality involves allowing clientele to choose for themselves how they want to feel, and how to achieve that. Within reasonable limits, of course. The approach of decarbonating drinks you're investigating now basically boils down to sending the message to your clientele "I took the bubbles away to prevent you lot from behaving like you're in a pig pen". It's a far cry from true hospitality, which revolves around accommodating people, not limiting them.
Put differently, if you want your clientele to feel classy, clean and sophisticated, make the kind of atmosphere that attracts classy, clean and sophisticated people. We frequently eat out in restaurants and the patronage generally fits your description very well. All of these places serve beer to those who enjoy it. I've never noticed much farting going on and there are also no queues in front of the bathrooms. Turns out if your clientele is sophisticated, it doesn't matter all that much what you put on the menu, as it doesn't change how and who people are, intrinsically.
Moreover, if you want to reduce bathroom breaks to a bare minimum, it's a better idea to not serve drinks that have a diuretic effect. This means no alcoholic and caffeinated beverages. Better not serve tea, either. Water is your best bet.
In short, I think there's a conflict between what you're trying to achieve and how you're going about it. If you explain in more detail what the context is (i.e. what kind of place are you running, what demographic does it cater for, what kind of experience are you trying to offer etc.), people may be able to help you in a more targeted way.
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Thomas Envisio
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: koraks]
#28213644 - 03/04/23 07:41 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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I really appreciate your comments here, koraks. Allow me to add some commentary I feel is now appropriate. First, let's pretend for a moment that you and I have both become separate owners of large venues intended for no-nonsense musicians and no-nonsense audiences. Let's also pretend we've got multiple vendors outside and inside in various formats, including alcohol servers.
People are going to drink. They may get rowdy. They may get sweaty. And they may take too much of multiple things. It might NOT be our ideal audience in terms of having a sophisticated night out on the town, but in this example, this is our distinct audience and our distinct reality.
Do I really want them farting from the carbon we allowed into the beers? Do I really want them burping from the carbon as they bounce up and down after slamming beer upon beer? Ideally, no. Do you? I want my audiences to feel like they're in heaven for at least two hours, and that they can then bring a piece of that heaven home with them from within.
Aside from the gas issues, let's talk about an unheard elephant in the room. What about disabled people (IBS/IBD/Crohn's/GERD/Bile Acid Malabsorption/Leaky Gut Syndrome/Etc.) who have "gut"-related issues --- knowingly and unknowingly --- and they're tossing down beer like it's the Final Nite Of Life, AND they're also in the audience in significant numbers. Do I also want them farting and burping while dancing?
That's probably NOT what I want in the year 2023. Do you? We could give everyone the equivalent of a Heineken WITHOUT the gas. We could give them the equivalent of a Guinness WITHOUT the acidic effects of current beers on the market worldwide. How do we pull this off at least as a hypothesis?
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: Thomas Envisio]
#28213791 - 03/04/23 09:08 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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This is a tough one. There are already a million cocktails something for everyone really. Plus quality craft well brewed beer already attracts fancy people. Wine has it's own fancy people it draws.
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koraks
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: Thomas Envisio] 1
#28213815 - 03/04/23 09:24 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Well, I suppose it's noble of you to try and civilize an audience that's apparently not very civilized to begin with, but I don't think taking carbonated drinks away from them is going to do much. Again, not serving alcohol sounds like a far more sensible start.
As to the people with gastric problems: why not leave it to people to decide for themselves what's best for them? In that sense, serving a range of beverages such as gluten-free beers (increasingly available) would be a nice idea.
So I still think you're betting on the wrong horse with the de-carbonated drinks.
Anyway, if you insist on decarbonating drinks, my advice remains to let them outgas since this is by far the cleanest approach: it adds nothing to the beverage.
As to the 'acidic effects': not sure what you're hinting at with this, but if you want to raise the pH of a beverage, you could add something like (food grade) sodium carbonate. I'd suggest doing this at a decent scale and adding a carbonate or even hydroxide solution to the beverage while monitoring pH. Keep adding until you hit the 6.5-7.5 range, which is pH neutral. You'll end up with a somewhat buffered and hence fairly stable pH.
Since you don't want to mess with stuff intended for human consumption unless you know exactly what you're doing and how it relates to food safety, I'd strongly suggest consulting a food technologist with your questions. Anyone in the business will be able to give you a couple of ways to decarbonate and raise the pH of drinks.
Both decarbonating and raising the pH will have an effect on overall drinking experience and flavor. The main 'benefit' of this will be that people will mostly refrain from ordering your beer because it's, well, gross. If you don't believe me, give it a try with some regular beer that you bring to a neutral pH by adding food grade sodium carbonate. You'll need a pH meter for this, but these days they can be had for around $10; these ones aren't super high quality, but adequate for what you're doing. If the beer hasn't totally fizzed out by now, leave out out in a glass until it has entirely outgassed, but adding the carbonate will probably get rid of all the bubbles instantly anyway. I'd suggest chilling the beverage before drinking it. It'll still be bland and yucky, especially due to the higher pH, but the chilling will make the drinking experience slightly less depressing.
Do you intend your audience to return to your venue, or is it OK if they only order a drink once, leave and never return?
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Thomas Envisio
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: koraks]
#28215304 - 03/05/23 03:51 AM (10 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Do you intend your audience to return to your venue, or is it OK if they only order a drink once, leave and never return?
Here's the kicker...I understand your point, but I don't know if you fully understand mine. I realize fully that you're suggesting that this is a bit of a dead end, and what I want can't be achieved.
However, let's start anew and approach this as technicians in the beer industry. Let's say you own Budweiser and I own Heineken. Sales are great and consistent. Yet, we both know we could make better beers and healthier beers. Let's say we decide to have a competition to see who can develop a healthier version of these beers, while still maintaining any good qualities that are already present.
For me, I want that gas replaced so my customers are not farting and burping. Especially those with gut-related conditions. Perhaps you would go a different direction and improve on flavor or packaging. What steps can each of us take as technicians to make the next enjoyable generation of beers?
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koraks
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Re: A New Generation Of Truly Modern Beers, Wines, & Liquors -+- [Re: Thomas Envisio] 1
#28215335 - 03/05/23 04:46 AM (10 months, 19 days ago) |
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Alright, I'll cut you some slack.
First, I've got to say I'll remain skeptical, mostly because you depart from two assumptions that I doubt have much relevance in practice: 1: that there are significant health aspects related to the carbonation or pH ('acidity level') of beverages like beers. 2: that the burping issue is somehow problematic.
But let's assume that you're right in those assumptions, or that there's at least a niche market that shares your views. Btw, note that the major brewers haven't jumped on this, which suggests that there's no significant explicit demand for this in the market. If there were, someone would have exploited that gap long ago.
Anyway, assuming you're onto something nobody recognized before, I would remain of the position that bringing a beverage to a neutral pH is a simple matter of adding a suitable pH buffer, which is well-understood and common practice throughout the food industry. I mentioned carbonate as one direction, but there's a range of chemistry that works for this, and that's approved for food use. So that's an easy one.
The other easy one is the carbonation - especially at an industrial scale, it's easy to decarbonate beer. Just allow any carbon dioxide to diffuse away during fermentation, just like in winemaking. Before bottling, kill off the remaining yeast; sulfite is a common agent used for this, but pasteurization will also work. This yeast-killing step is necessary due to the high level of remaining sugars in beer.
The tricky bit will be to do all this while maintaining an attractive flavor profile and drinking experience. The acidity level and carbonation are vital components of the beer-drinking experience in terms of aspects such as mouthfeel and flavor. You can't really fix that - you might increase the bitterness a bit (add hops) to compensate for a lack of acidity, or add citrate for a tart flavor profile, but at best it'll be a workaround and not a real substitute. More promising routes are adding all kinds of flavorings, either of natural origin or synthesized esters, that create an altogether different flavor profile while retaining the 'core structure' of beer as a grain-derived, alcoholic ferment.
As such, you'll end up with a drink that somewhat resembles beer, but isn't quite the real deal. This might be OK for your purposes, and as said, it's easy enough to trial it informally with home/kitchen methods.
As to gut-related conditions or other personal preferences: note that e.g. gluten-free beers have been introduced and apparently see modest popularity given the types that are available, although it's a negligibly small niche within the entire beer market. Alcohol-free beers are a bit more popular, but at least in Europe mostly see popularity in beer-derivatives like Radlers, although proper alcohol-free beers also seem to be gaining in acceptance lately (they can indeed be quite nice; some alcohol free IPA's are pretty close to the original and worthwhile in their own right). This might be the sort of example that fits your ideas, where you end up with something that's not quite beer, but derived from it and sort of 'works' as it is.
In short, I think you essentially have all you need to get started if you want to experiment on this. I'll repeat the earlier suggestion of trying a beer-derivative by decarbonating it and raising its pH. The latter can even be done by buying a pack of sodium bicarbonate (check any brewer's or baker's store). Add small amounts to the beer until it stops producing any bubbles. The bicarbonate will react with any acids present to form CO2 gas, which will bubble out of the beer. You'll end up with a pH neutral or very mildly alkaline quasi-beer. You could try it as it is, and/or add flavorings as you desire. Go crazy with the ginger, coriander seeds and whathaveyou!
If you want to pursue this, just get started and give it a try; see where it takes you. Again, I have doubts about the market potential, but on the other hand, if you give a nice spin to it I'm sure there are people who will buy into the arguments you're giving, even if I don't personally agree with them.
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