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OfflineWonkoTheSane
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Registered: 12/08/21
Posts: 8
Last seen: 1 month, 12 days
Orellanine (C. Orellanus/rubellus) - water soluable?
    #28185045 - 02/13/23 06:51 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Hi experts,

I'm working on a (non-commercial) project discussing the dangers of psychedelic mushroom misidentification and accidental ingestion of toxins, and I'm pondering if accidental Orellanine ingestion (found in C. Orellanus/rubellus) can be mitigated by making psilocybin tea as an alternative to eating the mushroom body.

I know that many people prefer making tea, but this would be an additional "benefit" of ingesting the psilocybin this way.

According to Sagepub article Human and experimental toxicology of orellanine the toxin is not water soluable:

Quote:

Orellanine, orellinine, and orelline are soluble in dilute sodium hydroxide, ammonium hydroxide, and dimethyl sulfoxide; slightly soluble in methanol; and practically insoluble in most organic solvents and water. Orellanine, contrary to orelline, is well soluble in alkaline solutions. (final paragraph in chemistry section)





Questions:

1) Is the above quote correct? Does anyone know of any alternative sources that supports or contradicts this?

2) Is the interpretation that a tea prepared from C. orellanus/rubellus would be safe to ingest correct?


Best,
WTS

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
Mycologist
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Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,392
Last seen: 2 days, 18 hours
Re: Orellanine (C. Orellanus/rubellus) - water soluable? [Re: WonkoTheSane]
    #28185383 - 02/13/23 11:49 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

I don't think it would be a good idea to drink tea of any toxic mushroom, especially since hot water makes a lot of things much more soluble. 

Mushrooms that contain orellanine are easy to identify and wouldn't be confused with psychoactive species by people who are paying attention, so I think that learning mushroom ID is the best way to avoid being poisoned.

Orellanine containing species are pretty rare on the USA, though I did DNA sequence one from northern California.  They have also turned up in Michigan.

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OfflineWonkoTheSane
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Registered: 12/08/21
Posts: 8
Last seen: 1 month, 12 days
Re: Orellanine (C. Orellanus/rubellus) - water soluable? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #28186487 - 02/14/23 12:26 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Thank you for replying Alan.

I did not consider changes in temperature being a factor in solubility and will look into it.

In terms of avoiding poisoning I wholeheartedly agree that correct identification (and knowledge of habitat) is the way to go, but if making tea actually adds an additional layer of security I would like to include this information in the section discussing the different ways of ingesting the mushroom.

Foraging for psychdelic mushrooms is becoming increasingly popular, and where I am located there is a lot (and I do mean a lot) of C. rubellus around.

If one in 10 000 identifications are wrong the habit of making tea could potentially still save someones life (or kidneys) is my take on the situation, but I will not include this information in the project until I get positive verification that the information is correct.

So if anyone is (or knows a chemist) that would like to add something to the discussion that would be highly appreciated. :smile:


WTS


Edit:

Water Solubility Estimate from Log Kow (WSKOW v1.41):
    Water Solubility at 25 deg C (mg/L):  4.292e+005

https://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.10266115.html

Anyone familiar with EPIsuite/WSKOW(?) and can do a calculation at 100C?

Edited by WonkoTheSane (02/14/23 01:16 AM)

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