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Offlinefft2
journeyman

Registered: 06/15/04
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Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ?
    #2818214 - 06/22/04 07:59 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers for following orders ?


Bush Claimed Right to Waive Torture Laws  :mad2:

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040622_1767.html


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Offlineuki
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Registered: 06/13/04
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: fft2]
    #2818236 - 06/22/04 08:03 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

pissed is for lack of a better word for how i feel about the current administrations policies on any topic or ideal.


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Anonymous

Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldie [Re: fft2]
    #2818258 - 06/22/04 08:08 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

soldiers can, are, and should be held accountable for their actions, even while obeying orders. i believe it's actually an official policy that soldiers must disobey 'immoral or illegal orders' (whatever that actually amounts to), but i'm not sure.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldie [Re: ]
    #2818318 - 06/22/04 08:23 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

See My Lai. I just find it very hard to understand how it is that if there were orders from above to """"torture????"""" prisoners that this was the only crew that got them. The press has been crawling all over this and it remains only one crew. How come? Torture my ass. They did even plug the fuck in.


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Offlineblu3
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Registered: 03/06/04
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: fft2]
    #2819812 - 06/23/04 03:29 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fft2 said:
Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers for following orders ?






In short, not at all.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: blu3]
    #2819849 - 06/23/04 03:48 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I just hope the people who allowed it to happen and gave the orders get it worse than the ones who followed the orders.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: fft2]
    #2820572 - 06/23/04 12:55 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers for following orders ?




Soldiers are bound to NOT following an order if they know it to be unlawful. It is their responsibility to notify the chain of command.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: fft2]
    #2820642 - 06/23/04 01:26 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers for following orders ?




Absolutely not. Bad judgement (or stupidity) is not an excuse. Any soldier should know the difference between right and wrong. The Nuremberg defence is not valid. That said, prosecutions should go up the chain of command.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: grib]
    #2822411 - 06/23/04 11:31 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

'oh i was just following orders' = biggest bullshit excuse in the history of mankind. Because some greasy fuck in shiny boots told you to drop a nuke on hiroshima you went ahead and did it?

just because some angry man with a little moustache told you to throw jews in an oven you did it?

well I ORDER you to kill those towelheads! ....


what no response? wait *puts on elaborate hat with tassels and a big shiny metal star* ok now its ok to follow me blindly! i am an OFFICER for god's sake.

summary... you must be responsible for your own actions, and blind deferance to authority is NOT an excuse for evil.


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OfflineAhronZombi
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Registered: 04/06/04
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: fft2]
    #2823015 - 06/24/04 04:15 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

im not against the troops but if you torture or do anything negative you are gonna have to pay. but ultimitly their leaders at the top mainly bush need to be punished. i hope the UN declares the government planned it and our country is shunned across the world like nazi germany, that may be what it takes to wake up america to what is going on


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Registered: 04/14/04
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2823404 - 06/24/04 09:05 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
'oh i was just following orders' = biggest bullshit excuse in the history of mankind. Because some greasy fuck in shiny boots told you to drop a nuke on hiroshima you went ahead and did it?




Now Hiroshima is a war crime? Interesting you didn't mention Pearl Harbor. If the US didn't do it, it's not that wrong, right?
Quote:


just because some angry man with a little moustache told you to throw jews in an oven you did it?




I don't think that it was "unlawful" to do that, and the majority of the people probably supported it. Make your analogies work if you want to stay here long and not be the resident boob. ( don't worry alex, your place as resident f***wit will be forever)
Quote:


what no response? wait *puts on elaborate hat with tassels and a big shiny metal star* ok now its ok to follow me blindly! i am an OFFICER for god's sake.




If it's UNLAWFUL, they are REQUIRED to not follow it. Hiroshima wasn't unlawful, neither, in Germany, was gassing/burning jews.


You are a complete nitwit.


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Anonymous

Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: fft2]
    #2823423 - 06/24/04 09:15 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

about as pissed as we were when 3 aussie diggers were shot by an english firing squad for following orders under a british commander in the boer war
they're called scapegoats
whatever happened to rape and pillaging and sharing the spoils of war?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Registered: 05/28/04
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: ]
    #2823855 - 06/24/04 01:17 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

?Now Hiroshima is a war crime? Interesting you didn't mention Pearl Harbor. If the US didn't do it, it's not that wrong, right??

Fucking right dropping nuclear bombs on civilian cities is a war crime. And pearl harbor was wrong too, but I?m just using a few examples here man chill out, I cant list every human act of violence. In case you didn?t notice my next one was about Germany, so lay off with your American-bashing bullshit.

?I don't think that it was "unlawful" to do that, and the majority of the people probably supported it. Make your analogies work if you want to stay here long and not be the resident boob. ( don't worry alex, your place as resident f***wit will be forever)?

you are amazing. Im not saying anything about laws. Im saying Gassing Jews to death was wrong, ethically, and defending that by saying it was supported by the majority or not against the law is insane. If you really base your life that way, that?s your decision, but im not going to sit here and argue with you about weather Hitler and Hiroshima were wrong or not.

You seem to have missed the whole point of my post , which was that ethics and orders are separate things. Following orders does not justify genocide nor nucleur bombs on civilians, and saying that your not responsible because you decided to turn your personal judgment over to a man with a uniform is bullshit.

?If it's UNLAWFUL, they are REQUIRED to not follow it. Hiroshima wasn't unlawful, neither, in Germany, was gassing/burning jews.?

Again, I don?t give a shit about laws. I give a shit about human life though, and that I think is where you and me differ.

?you are a complete nitwit?

and? you?re a poo-poo head!


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Offlinekadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2824211 - 06/24/04 03:16 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

interesting how the torture of some POW's is the biggest deal right now. I would personally be more worried about many other things that government is doing. But ya it is definatly fucked up.

"that this was the only crew that got them."

Maybe the only crew thats caught. There very well could be more. There are people just as sure of more torture as the government was sure of weapons in iraq. but maybe its just yet another tool to scare the population into beleiving whatever is said.

if your into learning about bush, read his biography. It is actually fairly unbiased, although many people have made it out to be an attack. Anyway, watched a documentary about it, the author ended up comiting suicide over this, after much problems with buch and his lawers. Fortunate son, by J H Hatfeild. It was banned from the states a while ago, maybe its for sale there now?


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: grib]
    #2824304 - 06/24/04 03:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> Any soldier should know the difference between right and wrong.

Obviously somebody that has never been a soldier in a war. I don't mean to belittle you, but rather to make a point. A soldier is taught two things: follow orders and kill the enemy. Any morality or values that a soldier has are ground away during training. A soldier is not a person. A soldier is a killing machine. A machine... no feelings, no thoughts, follow orders and kill.

We can discuss what the soldiers should have done, but we are looking at the situation through human eyes, not soldier eyes. They were doing what they were trained to do in order to survive. I'm not claiming they were trained to torture the enemy... but they were trained to see the enemy as an object, not as a person... a dangerous object that wants to kill them...

As disgusted as I am by the images of what our soldiers have done, I cannot fault them. They were following orders, following training... they were torturing objects, not people. The soldiers had basic training on how to handle prisoners of war in the field. They did not have specific training on how to be prison guards in a prisoner of war camp. Their officers took advantage of this, as did the generals higher up, as did the secretary of defense and the president himself.

If anybody should be sitting in front of a jury trying to prove that they are above the law, it should be Bush and Rumsfeld. The soldiers that are getting the wrap are simply a scapegoat.

> If it's UNLAWFUL, they are REQUIRED to not follow it.

Show me one pfc that will disobey a direct order from a co because they think the order may be unlawful...


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: Seuss]
    #2824380 - 06/24/04 04:03 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

seriously tho, does anyone else find it wierd that i was called  a 'boob' and a 'nitwit' simply for saying that following orders is not a legitimate excuse for nucleur bombs on civilians and nazi genocide?

:confused:


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2824413 - 06/24/04 04:09 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It's asinine that anyone should call you a boob or nitwit for expressing views that are correct.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Registered: 04/14/04
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2825079 - 06/24/04 08:16 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Fucking right dropping nuclear bombs on civilian cities is a war crime.




Maybe you could show me where in any of the Articles of War, the Geneva Convention, or any other document, the fact that bombing an enemy nation is a war crime. Thats kind of how wars work.
Quote:


And pearl harbor was wrong too,




Pearl Harbor was an unprovoked, unannounced act of aggression. However, it was not a war crime.
Quote:


you are amazing. Im not saying anything about laws.




Explain to me how you can use the word "crime", but not be talking about laws.
Quote:


If you really base your life that way, that?s your decision, but im not going to sit here and argue with you about weather Hitler and Hiroshima were wrong or not.




Wrong? Yes. War crimeS? Not hiroshima.
Quote:


You seem to have missed the whole point of my post ,




The topic is "... prosecuting our soldiers." Lets stick with that one.
Quote:


which was that ethics and orders are separate things. Following orders does not justify genocide nor nucleur bombs on civilians, and saying that your not responsible because you decided to turn your personal judgment over to a man with a uniform is bullshit.




If you are following the orders of a superior officer that truely are executive orders, such as bombing a target or running a camp, then you aren't violating the law and you can't be punished for it. Is that wrong? Definatly, as pertaining to the holocaust. That is why their are internationallaws against war crimes.
Quote:


Again, I don?t give a shit about laws. I give a shit about human life though, and that I think is where you and me differ.




If you don't give "a shit" about laws, perhaps you'll refrain from clicking on threads that deal with prosecution? They are somewhat related, dontchaknow!


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2825162 - 06/24/04 08:59 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Make your analogies work if you want to stay here long and not be the resident boob. ( don't worry alex, your place as resident f***wit will be forever)





Just bleeping out some words doesn't make it not a flame.

Choose your words more carefully in the future.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Is anyone else pissed that we are prosecuting our soldiers ? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2825186 - 06/24/04 09:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I actually didn't bleep that out, I thought it was some program/scritp that did. Point taken, I won't tell the group what it already knows about Alex.


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