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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Check???
    #2818024 - 06/22/04 07:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Im tired of this idea that human nature is inherintly opposed to self governance...

If people cant govern themselves. then cops cant. and governments CANT.

if people cant govern themselves. they cannot govern a government.

whos keeping cops in check?

who is requiring the govt to follow the constitution?

READ MY QUOTE.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleDieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 28,148
Re: Check??? [Re: BleaK]
    #2818063 - 06/22/04 07:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What do you propose?


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Anonymous

Re: Check??? [Re: BleaK]
    #2818083 - 06/22/04 07:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Im tired of this idea that human nature is inherintly opposed to self governance...

i'm afraid that insofar as there always seem to be people who initiate force if given the chance, the nature of some humans (and that's all it takes) is opposed to self-governance.

as long as people such as this exist, the state will be both an inevitable and necessary evil. the most we can do is see to it as best we can that it serves as a defense from them, and not a tool for them.


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Check??? [Re: ]
    #2818107 - 06/22/04 07:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Im tired of this idea that human nature is inherintly opposed to self governance...

i'm afraid that insofar as there always seem to be people who initiate force if given the chance, the nature of some humans (and that's all it takes) is opposed to self-governance.

as long as people such as this exist, the state will be both an inevitable and necessary evil. the most we can do is see to it as best we can that it serves as a defense from them, and not a tool for them.




and were doing such a great job.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Check??? [Re: DieCommie]
    #2818115 - 06/22/04 07:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
What do you propose?




i dont propose anything.

i think we already live in a state of anarchy. and the state has convinced us otherwise.

we just need to overpower them as theyve overpowerd us.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Anonymous

Re: Check??? [Re: BleaK]
    #2818128 - 06/22/04 07:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

and were doing such a great job.

let's work on it then. let us defend liberty. giving up on government only delivers it into the hands of those who would use it for the worst.


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Anonymous

Re: Check??? [Re: BleaK]
    #2818135 - 06/22/04 07:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i dont propose anything.

i think we already live in a state of anarchy. and the state has convinced us otherwise.

we just need to overpower them as theyve overpowerd us.


each one of those statement contradicts at least one of the others.


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Check??? [Re: ]
    #2818146 - 06/22/04 07:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
and were doing such a great job.

let's work on it then. let us defend liberty. giving up on government only delivers it into the hands of those who would use it for the worst.




gotta have liberty to defend it. and furthermore. that task is solely the individuals.

i must take and hold my own liberty. i cannot give it to a govt to protect for me.
if i do. its not my liberty.

BY the way.. my initial questions still stand..
how do we governt a government when we cant govern ourselves?

AND whos to say the govt hasnt already fallen into the hands of those ppl u mentiond?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Edited by BleaK (06/22/04 07:41 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Check??? [Re: BleaK]
    #2818151 - 06/22/04 07:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

gotta have liberty to defend it. and furthermore. that task is solely the individuals.

which basically means vigilante posses and improptu "trials" for the accused. this is, incidentally, still a (very poor) form of government.


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Check??? [Re: ]
    #2818153 - 06/22/04 07:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
gotta have liberty to defend it. and furthermore. that task is solely the individuals.

which basically means vigilante posses and improptu "trials" for the accused. this is, incidentally, still a (very poor) form of government.




how will a cop and a court solve a problem better than the people who are actually involved?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Anonymous

Re: Check??? [Re: BleaK]
    #2818162 - 06/22/04 07:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

how will a cop and a court solve a problem better than the people who are actually involved?

they can be held to some standard of objectivity and consistancy. a lynch mob cannot.


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Check??? [Re: ]
    #2818169 - 06/22/04 07:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
how will a cop and a court solve a problem better than the people who are actually involved?

they can be held to some standard of objectivity and consistancy. a lynch mob cannot.




whos holding them to that standard?

WHO decides what the standard should be?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Edited by BleaK (06/22/04 07:48 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Check??? [Re: BleaK]
    #2818229 - 06/22/04 08:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

WHO decides what the standard should be?

people who are not directly involved in that particular situation.

listen... i understand what you're saying and your point is well taken. i see where you're coming from here, but i don't think every one of the conclusions you're alluding to is totally valid. you may be interested in reading these threads:

In Defense of Rational Anarchism

The Reluctant Anarchist

one of the foremost and convincing 'anarcho-capitalist' (anarchist) writers, in my opinion, is murray n. rothbard. his opus, "man, economy, and state" is actually available online if you're into reading pages and pages of somewhat dense literature on politics and economics from a computer screen: http://www.mises.org/rothbard/mes/chap1a.asp


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Check??? [Re: ]
    #2818297 - 06/22/04 08:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
WHO decides what the standard should be?

people who are not directly involved in that particular situation.





EDIt: so som people who are indirectly involved... and cant govern themselves... they can govern me and you...?

thats ur fucking reply....?

ive read those posts.

IM OBVIOUSLY the best person to decide if a women should get an abortion.
since im not directly involved....

btw i have an endless list of bookmarks toooooo much to read already but thx for the link.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Edited by BleaK (06/22/04 08:20 PM)


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Offlineuki
fool of wisdom
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 213
Loc: the milky way
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Check??? [Re: BleaK]
    #2818361 - 06/22/04 08:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

to govern means to manipulate and to control. how the hell can any honest soul justify any form of government?


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Check??? [Re: uki]
    #2818369 - 06/22/04 08:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

uki said:
to govern means to manipulate and to control. how the hell can any honest soul justify any form of government?




its good to manipulate yourself. :wink:


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,186
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Check??? [Re: uki]
    #2818543 - 06/22/04 09:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Please. I'm begging you. You're killing me.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Check??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2824397 - 06/24/04 04:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 25,815
Loc: Iceland
Re: Check??? [Re: BleaK]
    #2824460 - 06/24/04 04:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

awesome post, totally true. The thing is, its not black and white. You cant trust ALL people, so the idea is to have a powerfull force of trustworthy people (the po po) who will regulate and protect us from the untrustworthy people. But of course the cops are just as likely to be untrustworthy as anyone else, and even more so once they are given badges and guns.

sadly i dont know a workable alternative, unless its to move out of the city structure in favour of smaller communes or a hermits life.


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Check??? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2824474 - 06/24/04 04:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
awesome post, totally true. The thing is, its not black and white. You cant trust ALL people, so the idea is to have a powerfull force of trustworthy people (the po po) who will regulate and protect us from the untrustworthy people. But of course the cops are just as likely to be untrustworthy as anyone else, and even more so once they are given badges and guns.

sadly i dont know a workable alternative, unless its to move out of the city structure in favour of smaller communes or a hermits life.




BINGO!! i got bingo weee!

damn now we just gotta reduce the popluation density..


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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