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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
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Dictatorship is here
    #2817086 - 06/22/04 02:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Papers comrad

Quote:

US citizens do not enjoy a constitutional right to refuse to reveal their identity when requested by police.




snip

Quote:

In a dissent, Justice John Paul Stevens says the Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination must always shield a criminal suspect who is being questioned by police. Since police may only request the name of someone they find suspicious (under the upheld Nevada statute), that person is by definition a criminal suspect who may not be compelled to make statements that might incriminate him, Justice Stevens says.

"The court reasons that we should not assume the disclosure of petitioner's name would be used to incriminate him," Justice Stevens writes. "But why else would an officer ask for it?"

Stevens adds, "A name can provide the key to a broad array of information about a person particularly in the hands of a police officer with access to a range of law enforcement databases."




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OfflineRedo
CTA

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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: cb9fl]
    #2817250 - 06/22/04 03:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Suspicious needs to be defined clearly, because if your walking down the street in a bad area at 3am is that suspicious?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: Redo]
    #2817301 - 06/22/04 03:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Many years ago I walked to the movie theatre on Sunday night and caught the 10 PM show. Getting out around midnight, I was walking home when I was trailed by a solo lady cop on patrol. She asked me where I was going and what I had been doing. I told her I went for a walk and was heading home. She asked me my name and I refused quoting the Supreme Court. She continued this mild harassment for a block or two yelling at me out of her police car window. Finally I ignored her. She then pulled over and asked me if I had a problem with police. I stated that if undue harassment was standard policy, then yes I had a problem.

She called for back-up, though I am not particularly intimidating physically nor did I display any anger or threatening behaviour. A few minutes later, a male cop shows up, tires screeching. He vaults out of the car and stands in front of me on the sidewalk to block my way and growls, "I hear you have been giving my partner some shit!" He folds his arms across his massive chest and stands meancingly in front of me. "No officer," I reply calmly, I am minding my own business and walking home." He makes some more threatening sounds, then I say, "OK officer Ortiz, badge # 416, you have two options. You may arrest me and I will not resist or you will kindly get out of my way and let me pass." He continued to glare as I brushed passed him. "We will be keeping an eye you!" He yells.

Whatever...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineuki
fool of wisdom
Registered: 06/13/04
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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: Swami]
    #2817425 - 06/22/04 04:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

my friend got stopped walking to tai chi class in florida... why? suspiciously walking too slow.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: cb9fl]
    #2817434 - 06/22/04 04:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Dictatorship is here



Not yet, but I can't say it isn't for a lack of effort.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: cb9fl]
    #2817440 - 06/22/04 04:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

While I find this decision abhorrent, it's not all that hard to see both sides.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2817852 - 06/22/04 06:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
While I find this decision abhorrent, it's not all that hard to see both sides.




Thats why we need clear definitions of what suspicious is, or else its on a cop to cop basis.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: Redo]
    #2818058 - 06/22/04 07:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well, I don't know how you define suspicious. I suspect it'd be along the lines os.... Well I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

\Think about it though.... there's a murder with a rough description of the suspect. Do you really want to hamstring the police and prevent them from questiong people who resemble the description? (bearing in mind that most eye witness descriptions suck)

I don't like the thought of that happening yet neither do I like the thought of a suspect getting away because the cops can't get a name or ID.

A toughie to be sure.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2818391 - 06/22/04 08:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Think about it though.... there's a murder with a rough description of the suspect. Do you really want to hamstring the police and prevent them from questiong people who resemble the description? (bearing in mind that most eye witness descriptions suck)





First I highly doubt a person that has committed a crime would give his real name. Friends of mine with suspended licenses have given false names out of state and gotten away with it so I'm pretty sure a criminal might try the same thing.

Second the only thing this does is give way to national identity cards and further erode our personal freedoms.

When an officer is called to a situation to investigate some supposed crime (note, just to investigate) he should be able to adequitely assess the situation without getting a person's name.

In a situation with a suspected murderer then if they have enough evidence against that person they should arrest him. You also need to note from the ruling that if a person was in custody of the police he would be covered by the Miranda Act and thus be perfectly in his rights to not give his name or any other information. However in this case they're saying that because he wasn't in custody and it was just a Terry stop his Miranda rights did not apply.

That is ludicrous. A person should have the right at all times to not say a word to a police officer. If you followed the case you would see the cop had an anonymous tip telling him a man slapped or hit a girl in a truck. The cop arrived at the seen on an anonymous tip and instead of trying to assess the alleged victim's state simply pestered Hiibel for his identification.

So now any cop can walk up to you and say they received an anonymous tip saying someone matching your description committed some crime and demand identification. If you refuse you can now be charged with a crime.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: cb9fl]
    #2818412 - 06/22/04 08:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

not cooperating makes u a suspect :laugh:


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: cb9fl]
    #2818434 - 06/22/04 08:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

A person should have the right not to identify themselves, but the cop should still be able to detain them untill they have been ID'd one way or another.


In other words the person refusing to identify themselvedcould not be charged with a crime for refusing to identify themselves, but if there is a need to know, there is a need to know.


--------------------


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Offlineuki
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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2818442 - 06/22/04 09:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

oh how simply you blindly follow along...


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: uki]
    #2818461 - 06/22/04 09:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

No actually, I just disagreed with the court's ruling.


I believe they can be detained, but not charged with a criome.


--------------------


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2818467 - 06/22/04 09:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"GUILTY UNTILL PROVEN NOT-GUILTY" - someone smart.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,009
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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: cb9fl]
    #2818522 - 06/22/04 09:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

First I highly doubt a person that has committed a crime would give his real name.


  name or ID.


Don't know many cops do you?  You have some bizarre ideas. Evidence? It takes time to gather, and if a cop responds to a murder, a witness points at you, or in the direction you went and gives a vauge description that sounds like you, you truly expect the cop to go gather evidence while you stroll off?  :rotfl:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2818585 - 06/22/04 09:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It takes time to gather, and if a cop responds to a murder, a witness points at you, or in the direction you went and gives a vauge description that sounds like you, you truly expect the cop to go gather evidence while you stroll off?




No I expect him to arrest that person thus granting that person the legally established Miranda rights whereby that suspect would legally be allowed to provide no responses to the officers questions.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,009
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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: cb9fl]
    #2818607 - 06/22/04 09:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Right. Instead of asking for a name, he should go right ahead and make the arrest.

Good system.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
enthusiast
Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 399
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Re: Dictatorship is here [Re: cb9fl]
    #2818621 - 06/22/04 10:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
No I expect him to arrest that person thus granting that person the legally established Miranda rights whereby that suspect would legally be allowed to provide no responses to the officers questions.




They actually aren't the Miranda "rights", they are the rights established in the Constitution. Popular misnomer, not your fault. If you don't want to give your name, thats fine. But they are allowed to hold you, if they have arrested you, until they determine your identify. If you want to sit in jail for 15 years and be a dick about it, thats fine. Bring some KY.


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