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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #28186238 - 02/13/23 09:02 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Popularity and platform are intrinsic to politics. The charisma factor, for sure. Many actors have reached the top of political hierarchy. Many powerful and skillfull politicians can't get the votes strictly due to being perceived unlikable....ala Hillary

Why do candidates co op "patriotic" songs? Same thing.




It's true that charisma and personal popularity do play a role in politics, and it's not uncommon for actors and other celebrities to pursue political careers or endorse political candidates.

However, the issue with unlimited corporate expenditure in political campaigns, as allowed by Citizen's United, is that it gives corporations an outsized level of influence over the political process and the outcome of elections, potentially leading to undemocratic outcomes and departing from the principle of one person, one vote.

Patriotic songs and other tactics to appeal to voters can be a part of a larger campaign strategy, but ultimately the difference lies in the potential for unlimited expenditure to sway elections on a larger scale.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Enlil]
    #28186248 - 02/13/23 09:07 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Thank God for free speech.




Free speech as guaranteed by the constitution, is not the same as unlimited financial contributions to political campaigns. The concept of 'one person, one vote' is a more accurate representation of free speech, as it ensures equal influence for all individuals in the political process, rather than allowing unequal influence based on corporate interference.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28186249 - 02/13/23 09:08 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

A vote is not speech.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Enlil]
    #28186262 - 02/13/23 09:12 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
A vote is not speech.




Do you see a vote as a form of expression, or a form of action? Because the first amendment protects expression, not action.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28186272 - 02/13/23 09:16 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Are those mutually exclusive in your twisted worldview?

All expression is action.  Some action is expression.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Enlil]
    #28186307 - 02/13/23 09:38 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Are those mutually exclusive in your twisted worldview?

All expression is action.  Some action is expression.




There are differences between individuals and corporations regarding free speech.

Political spending by individuals can be seen as a form of expression protected by the first amendment, while corporations political spending raises questions about fairness and influence in the political process, as corporations are not considered to have beliefs or opinions like individuals do.

While some actions such as assembling to petition the government are considered protected forms of expression, corporations are not considered human beings and do not have the same constitutional rights as individuals.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28186775 - 02/14/23 07:15 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

You are operating on a lot of assumptions.  Lots of corporations have beliefs and opinions.  Many corporations are specifically formed to serve a set of values and/or beliefs.  Still more are formed for profit but have a set of core values and/or beliefs defined at the outset.

What makes you think corporations are not considered human beings?  What makes you think they do not have the same constitutional rights as individuals?  Corporations have been treated like people under the law for a long time.

For much of this thread, you have been arguing that the rich shouldn't be able to spend unlimited money on an issue or candidate, but you also have this strange aversion to corporations doing so.  Corporations are not generally owned by the rich.  They are owned by large groups of people, each of whom have a small investment in them.  There is no reason that group of people shouldn't have the same right to expression as a single billionaire has.  Citizens United gives them the same right.

Earlier in this thread, you posted a graphic showing some names of people who spent large amounts on independent advertising.  Citizens United did nothing vis a vis that issue.  Before and after CU, individual rich people could spend unlimited money. 

Throughout this whole thread, you've been arguing inconsistent and unrelated points and placing the blame on a court case that had very little to do with it.


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Enlil]
    #28187371 - 02/14/23 04:36 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

What is the difference between these groups spending a billion dollars on TV spots, versus say, if they spent the money to put a huge, visible from Earth, LED sign on the moon that said, Vote So and So 'XX, Is that acceptable?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Ice9]
    #28187456 - 02/14/23 05:45 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Lol, no, that's some supervillain shit.  I think that was actually an episode of The Tick.


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #28187469 - 02/14/23 05:56 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

That's where I stole it from :lol:


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Ice9]
    #28187511 - 02/14/23 06:29 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

That's also a thing that Coca Cola considered...

But now that we have drones, I think we're more likely to have drone advertisements. Bit cheaper than engraving the moon.

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Enlil]
    #28187990 - 02/15/23 12:19 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Corporations are not considered human beings as they are separate legal entities, with their own set of rights and obligations that are distinct from the rights and obligations of their owners or employees.

They are created to achieve specific business goals, and while they can have values and beliefs, they do not have personal opinions or emotions in the same way that individuals do.

Corporations have unlimited lifespans and can accumulate unlimited amounts of wealth, which can give them disproportionate power and influence in society, raising questions about fairness and equality.

There already are limitations on what can be given to a candidate, and I want to extend those limitations back to corporations.

I want to regulate corporate spending on political campaigns, as it is regulated with political candidates. With limitations to expendature on political campaigns for corporations.

It is what it is, the solutions are difficult and time consuming to achieve, but they are not off the table, their probability of being successful is low but changing and they can't be ruled out.

I don't mind you saying you don't think change will happen, but that it can happen is non-negotiable at this point.

To me your only argument is the altered definition of free speech that the Citizens United case ruled into law.

You've accepted that change already.

You didn't vote for it.

Would you have voted for the Citizens United ruling to allow unlimited independent expenditure for corporations on political campaigns?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28188021 - 02/15/23 01:44 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Corporations are not a single entity of the blood and bone of a human, moreover, the US is not composed of a single person. That doesn't mean they don't have corporate personhood with rights...for instance to enter into a contract.

Are you saying that corporations should not have similar rights enjoyed by a person, even though the makeup of corporations are people? It seems you are extending your stance to now include the peoples' right to freedom of association.

There is no way to directly vote on a ruling or a federal law ; the Constitution doesn't even explicitly provide a right to vote.


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Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
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Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (02/15/23 06:57 AM)

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28188042 - 02/15/23 02:33 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

The corporate veil separates the legal identity of the company from its owners, limiting their personal liability for business debts and legal issues.

I understand the protection of a corporate veil is not absolute and that it can can be lifted in cases of illegal activities or director misconduct. The issue of political spending is related to campaign finance regulations and the amount of money corporations can contribute to political campaigns.

In some cases, business owners can rely on the legal concept of the corporate veil to remove liability from themselves and their actions by assigning responsibility to the company.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28188184 - 02/15/23 07:09 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

What limit $$$ limit would you place on corporations? Does it matter if its a type S or type C?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28188668 - 02/15/23 01:10 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

The limitations that currently exist without the loophole that allows for unlimited expenditure by corporations.

Both S corporations and C corporations offer limited liability protection to their owners, and although there are differences in the rules for shareholders and profit distribution between the two types of corporations, when it comes to regulations and laws related to campaign finance, they generally apply to all corporations, regardless of their tax status.


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