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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28185034 - 02/13/23 06:20 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Only if  the mode to do so exists....there needs to be more speech,  not less, even if that means unlimited expenditures.....just my opinion




I agree with this. Best to be equally able to express our values, and unite around basic human values.

If the majority of people value their fellow human, that majority will include those in minority positions. Such a value is not tied to or limited by social circumstances. It's tied to being a human. And anyone who values other humans becomes one of the majority de facto.

It changes the landscape of what it means to be in the minority. Being in the minority then means not valuing your fellow human. And wealth is an asset not a hindrance for such a majority.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28185038 - 02/13/23 06:30 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Well it starts with valuing the majority of people IMO. If we don't value each other then we definitely don't stand a chance of being united.

And if the majority isn't united then there is no way to "be" the majority




If one valued the majority of people they would aquiesse that one person gets 1 vote.

....

Now in my mind if someone values the majority then such a survey is a reliable indication that the voice of this majority is not being heard, and not being listened to. 






I do think there is a subtle difference between valuing people and valuing the specific values of people. Strip back the specifics and just value the person first IMO. The way we arrive at our specific values is so varied and tied to so much. It quickly gets confusing to start our evaluation at this point. Strip a bit farther back and it's easier IME. Starting from a place of valuing the other person, as a person, it becomes easier to discuss differences in view peacefully.

I think the majority "votes" with all their actions. Not just at the poll box. Standing up for what you believe in is good. I just think there is a distinct wisdom in creating a majority which values our commonality as humans first, and then argues about specific movements second. Inverse priorities seems much less wise to me. After all, the biggest majority exists in just being human.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28185286 - 02/13/23 10:41 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
That's why I don't think it's very intuitive to see the big picture like this. It's much more intuitive to find little things we disagree on.

IMO it just starts 1 person/family at a time taking the large view and maybe some day can grow to be a majority.




I think we might disagree on the nature vs. nurture argument of intuition.

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Then you've clearly not been listening to the arguments.

When I was a kid, ten dollars was very significant. Today, ten dollars is a rounding error on my credit card bill.

So, what exactly do you mean by "significant" funds, and why is a million dollars significant and ten dollars not?




Here's a list of 19 people who have put significant funding into political campaigns through unregulated expendature. Combined they are able to drown out a majority by flooding the advertising market.

Combined those 19 voices can have a louder voice than hundreds of thousands.



The limit on most individuals is $2500.

Choose your hill to die on.




Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of reductio ad absurdum, but it is my favorite rhetorical style. You will find that I am, in fact, on YOUR hill. I just climbed a little bit farther up, in an effort to demonstrate the ridiculous nature of your argument when taken to the (il-)logical conclusion.

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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28185501 - 02/13/23 01:15 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Spending looks about even, and the top spending Republican spent about $75,000 more than the top Democrat in 2020.

Quote:

sudly said:

Combined those 19 voices can have a louder voice than hundreds of thousands.







Result: DEMOCRAT president in 2020 elected.




You forgot three 000s.

And with regulated expenditure the results probably would have been far more interesting. The unregulated spending doesn't guarantee victory, but it sure has a large influence on voter behaviour through the advertising it buys.

Unregulated expenditure has an undue influence, especially when it's in the tens or hundreds of millions from a single person.

Why do you think Adelson spent over $200 million? Out of the goodness of his heart, for charity?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28185506 - 02/13/23 01:18 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Bloomberg spent his money on his own campaign, though.  Look where that got him.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
    #28185508 - 02/13/23 01:20 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Only if  the mode to do so exists....there needs to be more speech,  not less, even if that means unlimited expenditures.....just my opinion




I agree with this. Best to be equally able to express our values, and unite around basic human values.

If the majority of people value their fellow human, that majority will include those in minority positions. Such a value is not tied to or limited by social circumstances. It's tied to being a human. And anyone who values other humans becomes one of the majority de facto.

It changes the landscape of what it means to be in the minority. Being in the minority then means not valuing your fellow human. And wealth is an asset not a hindrance for such a majority.




What are you referring to as the minority, the poorest of us of the richest of us?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Enlil]
    #28185510 - 02/13/23 01:21 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Bloomberg spent his money on his own campaign, though.  Look where that got him.



That's not included in this graph.

Quote:

Ahead of the 2020 election, Mike Bloomberg spent a record-breaking $1.1 billion of his own money running for president, and another $150 million supporting Democratic candidates and causes. This year, with the 2022 midterms 12 months away, the former New York City mayor has spent about $1.6 million so far, according to Federal Election Commission data. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michelatindera/2021/11/05/heres-where-mike-bloomberg-the-biggest-spender-in-the-2020-election-has-donated-this-year/?sh=4ae1b0c95a10




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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28185513 - 02/13/23 01:22 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

If the majority of people value their fellow human, that majority will include those in minority positions. Such a value is not tied to or limited by social circumstances. It's tied to being a human. And anyone who values other humans becomes one of the majority de facto.




What a sweet world you must live in.  Unfortunately, that's not planet Earth.  The majority has always oppressed the minority for as long as civilization has existed.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28185514 - 02/13/23 01:23 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Bloomberg spent his money on his own campaign, though.  Look where that got him.



Did Adelson?



I don't know who Adelson is.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Enlil]
    #28185517 - 02/13/23 01:26 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Bloomberg spent a billion on his own campaign and spent $150 million on others.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Enlil]
    #28185524 - 02/13/23 01:29 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

sudly said:

If the majority of people value their fellow human, that majority will include those in minority positions. Such a value is not tied to or limited by social circumstances. It's tied to being a human. And anyone who values other humans becomes one of the majority de facto.




What a sweet world you must live in.  Unfortunately, that's not planet Earth.  The majority has always oppressed the minority for as long as civilization has existed.




The minority in regard to the voting population is the multibillionaires who can afford to spend tens of millions on funding their select political campaign advertisements.

The minority is the billionaire who can buy a louder voice than ten thousand people combined.

The rich minority don't value the majority as they pay for legislation changes that benefit them, not the majority of the public, as evidenced by Krysten Sinemas actions around drug price regulations.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
    #28185531 - 02/13/23 01:32 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Well it starts with valuing the majority of people IMO. If we don't value each other then we definitely don't stand a chance of being united.

And if the majority isn't united then there is no way to "be" the majority




If one valued the majority of people they would aquiesse that one person gets 1 vote.

....

Now in my mind if someone values the majority then such a survey is a reliable indication that the voice of this majority is not being heard, and not being listened to. 






I do think there is a subtle difference between valuing people and valuing the specific values of people. Strip back the specifics and just value the person first IMO. The way we arrive at our specific values is so varied and tied to so much. It quickly gets confusing to start our evaluation at this point. Strip a bit farther back and it's easier IME. Starting from a place of valuing the other person, as a person, it becomes easier to discuss differences in view peacefully.

I think the majority "votes" with all their actions. Not just at the poll box. Standing up for what you believe in is good. I just think there is a distinct wisdom in creating a majority which values our commonality as humans first, and then argues about specific movements second. Inverse priorities seems much less wise to me. After all, the biggest majority exists in just being human.




Then say one person one vote and be done with it!

There usually is a voting majority that you appear to be ignoring the existence of.

Inverse priorities? What democracy shouldn't be at the top? 1 person one vote is the top priority here.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28185537 - 02/13/23 01:34 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

One vote per person is already the law, bro.


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Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser

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Posts: 11,594
Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kryptos]
    #28185538 - 02/13/23 01:35 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Then you've clearly not been listening to the arguments.

When I was a kid, ten dollars was very significant. Today, ten dollars is a rounding error on my credit card bill.

So, what exactly do you mean by "significant" funds, and why is a million dollars significant and ten dollars not?




Here's a list of 19 people who have put significant funding into political campaigns through unregulated expendature. Combined they are able to drown out a majority by flooding the advertising market.

Combined those 19 voices can have a louder voice than hundreds of thousands.



The limit on most individuals is $2500.

Choose your hill to die on.




Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of reductio ad absurdum, but it is my favorite rhetorical style. You will find that I am, in fact, on YOUR hill. I just climbed a little bit farther up, in an effort to demonstrate the ridiculous nature of your argument when taken to the (il-)logical conclusion.




Mate, if you're on this hill then cool beans, but by golly, people here do appear to be asking what the difference is between a million dollars and ten and they seem earnest.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Enlil]
    #28185559 - 02/13/23 01:51 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
One vote per person is already the law, bro.



The principle of one person one vote has been undermined by unregulated and unlimited independent expenditure.

Because unregulated and unlimited expenditure on political campaigns can undermine the principle of one person, one vote, by giving disproportionate influence and power to individuals, groups, or organizations that are able to spend large sums of money on political advertisements.

This can lead to a situation where the opinions and interests of a wealthy minority are given greater weight and consideration in the political process, as opposed to the views and needs of the broader electorate. In essence, unlimited spending on political advertisements can serve to skew the democratic process in favor of those with the financial means to dominate the airwaves and influence public opinion.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28185574 - 02/13/23 02:06 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

What are you referring to as the minority, the poorest of us of the richest of us?

I would say the minority is first reflected in our personal values. It is when others share our personal values that we tend to value them. Ergo we personally value a minority of humans the most, based on this type of evaluation. 

I think evaluation in this way looks different at scale: capital is a diverse enough value holder that a majority of people include capital in their personal values. And as a result the minority of humans with the most capital hold the majority of the collective value.

Minority is just a product of inclusion/exclusion. I think any prioritized value on a specific trait or attribute is going to lay the foundation for creating a minority group somewhere along the line. And one counter to this imo is to value others first and foremost as a human.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Enlil]
    #28185586 - 02/13/23 02:14 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

said:
If the majority of people value their fellow human, that majority will include those in minority positions. Such a value is not tied to or limited by social circumstances. It's tied to being a human. And anyone who values other humans becomes one of the majority de facto.





What a sweet world you must live in.  Unfortunately, that's not planet Earth.  The majority has always oppressed the minority for as long as civilization has existed.




Yeah, I think this is true from a certain perspective. There's always a minority at the bottom with a majority above that. And that line moves as you "zoom out". And the inverse looks true from a certain perspective as well. There's always a minority at the top with a majority below it.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
    #28185589 - 02/13/23 02:16 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

The majority and minority are voting populations.

Unregulated and unlimited expenditure on political campaigns can undermine the principle of one person one vote by giving some individuals or organizations greater influence over the outcome of elections through their financial resources, effectively giving them a greater voice than others.

This can create a situation where the interests and values of a small minority of wealthy individuals or organizations are prioritized over the majority of citizens, leading to a distorted representation of public opinion in the political process.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28185596 - 02/13/23 02:20 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Spending looks about even, and the top spending Republican spent about $75,000 more than the top Democrat in 2020.

Quote:

sudly said:

Combined those 19 voices can have a louder voice than hundreds of thousands.







Result: DEMOCRAT president in 2020 elected.




You forgot three 000s.

And with regulated expenditure the results probably would have been far more interesting. The unregulated spending doesn't guarantee victory, but it sure has a large influence on voter behaviour through the advertising it buys.

Unregulated expenditure has an undue influence, especially when it's in the tens or hundreds of millions from a single person.

Why do you think Adelson spent over $200 million? Out of the goodness of his heart, for charity?





Your right, Me typo, I stand corrected. The proportion remains the same, though. If indeed top dollar guarantees undue influence, your link doesn't show that.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28185597 - 02/13/23 02:20 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Unregulated and unlimited expenditure on political campaigns can undermine the principle of one person one vote by giving some individuals or organizations greater influence over the outcome of elections through their financial resources, effectively giving them a greater voice than others.




Could be. What's your solution to the problem if not to examine our collective values and determine how minority influence arises in oversized ways, repeatedly and regularly?

IMO finding the source of a leak is more important than just shoveling out the water around us..

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