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Kryptos
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28177945 - 02/08/23 04:22 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I don't think your graph shows increased voter turnout since 2010 the way you think it does. Matter of fact, I think that without the last two data point, voter turnout would be flat. 2018 and 2020, for better or for worse, led to higher turnout due to the nature of the candidates.
This kinda ties in with the politics as spectacle idea, though. Perhaps making politics into this big, expensive, team game with all the bells and whistles and brouhaha does raise voter turnout, and while I am loathe to call increased turnout a bad thing, I wonder how the means of the turnout affect the reality of the politics in question? It's almost like old school propaganda vs modern firehose of disinformation...but the analogy falls apart because it is still one person one vote. And straight up mentally disabled people still get to vote (I hope). No matter how dumb or misinformed you are, you should still get to vote.
Maybe we should ban politicians from owning things?
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kryptos]
#28178097 - 02/08/23 06:14 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Who knows, after all....if you can't prove it with statistics, you are not trying hard enough. How would one get the methodology to quantify why someone voted?
Were you duped? Do you have a low IQ? Did you pick the candidate because you liked his last name? Did PAC expenditures on political ads fuck with your head?
Still, a little over half voted. The needle is hovering where it has been with no high discernable difference. If we had less spectacle, no more Fox news? No more commentary masquerading as objective news?. Very tempting but one has the right to be duped, I guess.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (02/08/23 06:15 PM)
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Kryptos
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28178155 - 02/08/23 06:54 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Were you duped? Do you have a low IQ? Did you pick the candidate because you liked his last name? Did PAC expenditures on political ads fuck with your head?
I assume that one of those things is true, at minimum. Possibly multiple.
Though I also think it's kinda hard to pull money out of politics, too. There was an episode of Mad Men, around the Nixon election, where Bert Cooper congratulates...one of the people for buying up ad space for zit cream right around the election, blocking off the time slots that Kennedy needed to buy.
Like, that's clearly going to have political side effects, but could also be done completely innocently with no political motive whatsoever.
How do you prevent such, uh, wild coincidences?
Either way, I don't think that more money in politics raised voter participation. I think Trump's odious tomfoolery was a much bigger factor. After all, spectacle requires a cast. You can't put on a show without actors.
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sudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kryptos]
#28181589 - 02/11/23 12:00 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Just know, it is important to be aware of the potential impact that advertising can have on the political landscape, and to consider the implications of unregulated spending on advertisements.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Kryptos
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
#28182031 - 02/11/23 09:26 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Gonna do an analysis for potential political side effects before you let your kid put up a lemonade stand?
Of course, we also need a third party confirmation of the political effects on your lemonade stand.
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sudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kryptos]
#28182426 - 02/11/23 01:57 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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A lemonade stand is a small-scale operation for children and does not have the potential to influence elections and policies in the same way that large amounts of money spent on political advertising could.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Kryptos
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
#28182521 - 02/11/23 02:58 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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You'd think so, but there are at least 14 states that have laws specifically naming lemonade stands.
Similarly, a well-placed lemonade stand can easily disrupt a polling location.
Unless your point is to find some arbitrary line that makes sense only to you, I don't see why you discount my argument that a lemonade stand needs a third party analysis for political side effects.
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sudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kryptos]
#28182544 - 02/11/23 03:06 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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It sounds like you are trying to find some arbitrary line that makes sense only to you, because what is your point about a lemonade stand have to do with unregulated spending on advertisements for political campaigns?
The two are not equivalent. Is the lemonade stand donating millions?
The lemonade stand can have an analysis for political side effect, but as a single lemonade stand I don't see how you could argue that it's going to be anywhere near or equivalent to several million dollars of corporate spending on political advertisements from a single company.
As long as the lemonade stand isn't in the pathway that's not a conflict of interest, in Australia they hold sausage sizzles and numerous polling stations, for people waiting in line or mingling.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kryptos]
#28182555 - 02/11/23 03:16 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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My stance is this, that taking significant funds from lobbyists representing an industry before voting on legislation affecting that industry can raise questions about the independence and impartiality of the elected representatives to the decision-making process. This can lead to the perception of a conflict of interest, as the decision-maker may be influenced by the financial relationship with the lobbyists.
All I've heard from arguments here are that they don't ultimately care or think that financial relationships with lobbyist do influence the elected representatives and legislative decision makers, but I would refer you all to the examples we have of individuals like Krysten Sinema who clearly have been influenced by financial relationships with their lobbyists.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Kryptos
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
#28182758 - 02/11/23 05:31 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Then you've clearly not been listening to the arguments.
When I was a kid, ten dollars was very significant. Today, ten dollars is a rounding error on my credit card bill.
So, what exactly do you mean by "significant" funds, and why is a million dollars significant and ten dollars not?
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Sulfurshelfsean
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kryptos]
#28183584 - 02/12/23 08:28 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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A million dollars creates a larger platform than ten. 100,000 times more. Money being speech means the person with more has a louder voice. Regardless of whether or not that voice is right/wrong/illegal/immoral etc...we're supposed to have a system that makes sure a minority can't subvert a majority, and vice versa. A level playing field should be a standard for elections IMO. How do we do that? I don't pretend to know the answer.
--------------------
   Everything is better when it is done ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN!
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Kickle
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Sulfurshelfsean]
#28184194 - 02/12/23 02:56 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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If the majority doesn't immediately value what the minority has, but values instead what the majority has, then the majority immediately holds the majority of the value.
It seems simple to me. But it's not a very intuitive thing I guess.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kryptos
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
#28184507 - 02/12/23 06:52 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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It's intuitive, but the minority is willing and able to use force to ensure the supremacy of the value of the thing they have.
What happens when you replace money with something else? Depending on your relation to US borders, either the CIA or the FBI takes an immediate interest. As does the FED and the IRS. And potentially the SS, depending on exactly how you decided not to value money.
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Kickle
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kryptos]
#28184540 - 02/12/23 07:17 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Well it starts with valuing the majority of people IMO. If we don't value each other then we definitely don't stand a chance of being united.
And if the majority isn't united then there is no way to "be" the majority
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kryptos
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
#28184613 - 02/12/23 08:15 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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And how do we do that?
Keep in mind that a videogame congratulating you for punching Nazis was a very controversial political opinion like, three years ago.
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Kickle
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kryptos]
#28184616 - 02/12/23 08:19 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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That's why I don't think it's very intuitive to see the big picture like this. It's much more intuitive to find little things we disagree on.
IMO it just starts 1 person/family at a time taking the large view and maybe some day can grow to be a majority.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
#28184620 - 02/12/23 08:23 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Only if the mode to do so exists....there needs to be more speech, not less, even if that means unlimited expenditures.....just my opinion
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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sudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kryptos]
#28184792 - 02/13/23 12:37 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Then you've clearly not been listening to the arguments.
When I was a kid, ten dollars was very significant. Today, ten dollars is a rounding error on my credit card bill.
So, what exactly do you mean by "significant" funds, and why is a million dollars significant and ten dollars not?
Here's a list of 19 people who have put significant funding into political campaigns through unregulated expendature. Combined they are able to drown out a majority by flooding the advertising market.
Combined those 19 voices can have a louder voice than hundreds of thousands.

The limit on most individuals is $2500.
Choose your hill to die on.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (02/13/23 12:44 AM)
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sudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
#28184795 - 02/13/23 12:47 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: Well it starts with valuing the majority of people IMO. If we don't value each other then we definitely don't stand a chance of being united.
And if the majority isn't united then there is no way to "be" the majority
If one valued the majority of people they would aquiesse that one person gets 1 vote.
Although I do see the caveat that I'm in Australia and here voting is mandatory, so in the US, the majority of a vote may not necessarily reflect the overall majority of voters because the decision to attend is optional and sometimes lengthsome to undertake.
A lot of people don't turn up to elections or participate within it in the US.
Bipartisanship doesn't work when oppositions want to reflect different time periods in history from bringing us back to the 60s with gay weed hysteria, and now the 30s with introductions by republicans to bring back child labor in mines.
National surveys and polls provide relevant insight into the mindsets and voting intentions of the public. They can paint a decent general picture of the overall voting mindset, and some polls indicate that on issues like Marijuana federal legalisation, the majority wants it.
Now in my mind if someone values the majority then such a survey is a reliable indication that the voice of this majority is not being heard, and not being listened to.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
#28184996 - 02/13/23 05:17 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Spending looks about even, and the top spending Republican spent about $75,000 more than the top Democrat in 2020.
Quote:
sudly said:
Combined those 19 voices can have a louder voice than hundreds of thousands.

Result: DEMOCRAT president in 2020 elected.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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