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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #28171740 - 02/04/23 07:48 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Yes, I think in a capitalist society, those with inordinate amounts of capital will have an inordinate amount of influence. Because capital has inordinate value in capitalism.

This is balanced by America being a highly individualistic society, where individuality and individual values are also super near and dear to our hearts. So individuals with tons of capital tend to think their individual values are the best.

But this is all representative of the larger societal values. And if this didn't work as a society, such values would not exist. Especially not as values in so many countries.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
    #28171755 - 02/04/23 08:05 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Oh you mean how Krysten Sinema has a history of bribery?



Possibly but we have no evidence of that. If we're going to pretend that commercials and campaign contributions are bribes then we better lock up Bernie Sanders, he took money from hundreds of thousands of individual bribists.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Brian Jones] * 2
    #28171880 - 02/04/23 10:25 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
So, what's your take on how the superrich can influence congressional (or whatever) decisions legally, and what constitutes crossing the line into criminal attempts to influence?



Obviously any sort of quid pro quo is past the line.  Beyond that, it's a tough problem to solve.

Let's be realistic, though.  This isn't unique to America.  Everywhere you go, those in political power cater to those with economic power.  Whether it's linked to a direct payment of some sort or just some vague notion that you want to keep powerful people happy so they don't fuck with you.  Also, setting aside both of those "less than noble" reasons, there is a very real and practical reason for politicians to want big businesses to thrive.  They employ many voters.  Also, high unemployment leads to social instability.  There are simply tons of societal reasons to favor business.

Yeah, there are times when people give and take bribes.  I have no doubt about that.  The notion that it's some widespread phenomenon is a bit far fetched, however, given the financial disclosures politicians must make. 

Finally, we cannot divorce this problem from the competing freedom interest in speech.  After all, you're not really talking about the billionaire having a direct influence on a candidate as much as the billionaire having an influence on voters and election outcome.  That's where the politician's real interest lies anyway...retaining power.  The only way to cut down on that interest is by seriously curtailing speech.  If spending were limited, who would have the biggest "free" pulpit?  News, TV personalities, etc.  Either way, you still create a special class of influencers who wield excessive power...


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Enlil]
    #28172298 - 02/04/23 04:43 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

sudly said:

It's important to address the percieved bribery that has taken place and not to minimise it.




The way to address bribery is to prosecute it.  There are already laws that prohibit such conduct.
Quote:



Why do you think they spent the better part of a billion dollars?

Why do you think they are spending the money? Do you think it's for the general welfare, do you think it's for charity?




Because they want candidates that support policies that help them.  If you had a billion dollars, you'd want candidates in office that are pro-billionaire.  Those are the ones you'd choose to support, so you'd spend your money trying to get those candidates elected.




There are loopholes that mean it can't be prosecuted.

You're happy to support policies that help the corporations at the behest of the billionaire to increase income inequality through deregulations and tax drops on the wealthiest corporations in existance.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
    #28172302 - 02/04/23 04:48 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Because they want candidates that support policies that help them.


That's the way I see it too. Throwing value at the values we value. Wowsa, is that phrase even slightly valuable? Probably not :lol:

The pursuit of happiness exists in so many ways. Not all who use money express their values in the same way. It's wild to say money only represents one value - greed. It's just not true. Money represents an enormous range of values. That's why money is sort of a placeholder for 'value' at large.

It's more reasonable to have a nuanced approach to the way money represents societal values IMO. But it's convenient to blame the values we don't personally agree with on corruption. And that may be the case some of the time. It's difficult to see those cases clearly in any society. But when they are clear, prosecute :yesnod:

The mere presence of money is not in and of itself clarifying.




Money isn't being villified as a whole, it's a request to have restrictions on political campaign finances where money specifically has a wagering effect.

In every other regard, spend what you can, I'm not envious of billionaires. I don't have aspirations to be one.

I feel good enough as is.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kizzle]
    #28172306 - 02/04/23 04:53 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
Quote:

Oh you mean how Krysten Sinema has a history of bribery?



Possibly but we have no evidence of that. If we're going to pretend that commercials and campaign contributions are bribes then we better lock up Bernie Sanders, he took money from hundreds of thousands of individual bribists.




How would you respond to this evidence?

Quote:

Kyrsten Sinema, the Only Anti-Net Neutrality Dem, Linked to Super PAC Run by a Comcast Lobbyist
The super PAC has made independent political expenditures to support Sinema's elections, and Sinema has directed donations to it through a PAC she used to chair.

https://prospect.org/politics/kyrsten-sinema-anti-net-neutrality-super-pac-comcast-lobbyist/




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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Enlil]
    #28172309 - 02/04/23 04:58 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
So, what's your take on how the superrich can influence congressional (or whatever) decisions legally, and what constitutes crossing the line into criminal attempts to influence?



Obviously any sort of quid pro quo is past the line.  Beyond that, it's a tough problem to solve.

Let's be realistic, though.  This isn't unique to America.  Everywhere you go, those in political power cater to those with economic power.  Whether it's linked to a direct payment of some sort or just some vague notion that you want to keep powerful people happy so they don't fuck with you.  Also, setting aside both of those "less than noble" reasons, there is a very real and practical reason for politicians to want big businesses to thrive.  They employ many voters.  Also, high unemployment leads to social instability.  There are simply tons of societal reasons to favor business.

Yeah, there are times when people give and take bribes.  I have no doubt about that.  The notion that it's some widespread phenomenon is a bit far fetched, however, given the financial disclosures politicians must make. 

Finally, we cannot divorce this problem from the competing freedom interest in speech.  After all, you're not really talking about the billionaire having a direct influence on a candidate as much as the billionaire having an influence on voters and election outcome.  That's where the politician's real interest lies anyway...retaining power.  The only way to cut down on that interest is by seriously curtailing speech.  If spending were limited, who would have the biggest "free" pulpit?  News, TV personalities, etc.  Either way, you still create a special class of influencers who wield excessive power...




Businesses can thrive without millions of dollars of independent expenditure being spent on cushioning the careers of their favourite candidates that ironically show trends of appealing to the causes of the direct donor rather than representing the democratic majority they are supposed to represent.

Businesses can thrive without buying politicians.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28172343 - 02/04/23 05:27 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

And they generally do.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28172370 - 02/04/23 05:50 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Money isn't being villified as a whole, it's a request to have restrictions on political campaign finances where money specifically has a wagering effect.

In every other regard, spend what you can, I'm not envious of billionaires. I don't have aspirations to be one.

I feel good enough as is.




Right. It's clear you want to carve exceptions which limit others' values when they don't agree with your own values.

I also understand that this is because you want to protect the individual with little capital from the one with tons of capital. I think that's valid and why I haven't argued against it.

My counter is that the value on capital is the driver here. Not donations. The wealthy have tons of leverage regardless and that leverage is visible in every facet of society. The little guy will literally defend the guy with tons of capital in many instances. And this doesn't happen because the capital owner bribed a politician. It happens because people in a capitalistic society value capital.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
    #28172400 - 02/04/23 06:08 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Politicians have advertisers. How are you okay with that?

You're allowed to invest in a business or project with the expectation of generating income or profits, but that should not extend to a politician who generates those returns and profits by engineering tax reductions and deregulations towards the investing business.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28172408 - 02/04/23 06:14 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Ok with what? I'm really not ok with capitalism. But I recognize that the only real power the little guy has in such a system is in labor.

Even if the masses don't have capital, the masses are still the engine of capital.

I'm not ok with people blindly giving their labor to capital owners and even defending the capital owners when shit gets tough. It makes next to no sense to me that people blame minority groups and other such nonsense.

In the end we love to elect the wealthy. Always have. Nothing represents our collective value on capital more clearly imo. Advertising is just a way the wealthy battle each other.


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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
    #28172430 - 02/04/23 06:28 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

It's not vilifying money, it's recognising the necessity of restrictions.

Do we vilify bazookas or recognise their danger and that they're not always appropriate?

Unions have plenty of power within their own labor system and even though I support unions, I on principle don't want to see unlimited spending on political campaigns for anyone single individual person or company.

When a minority group like billionaires have more or the same sway as the absolute majority of people, something is wrong. 

While it is important to acknowledge the role that capital plays in creating economic growth and opportunities for people, I also think it's important to find ways to harness that value for the greater good, not solely for the benefit of the billionaire minority.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28172443 - 02/04/23 06:35 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

When capital has a central and defining role in the hierarchy of social class, how can you somehow create fairness by limiting political advertising? It doesn't make sense to me, sorry.


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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
    #28172481 - 02/04/23 06:46 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

The idea behind limiting political advertising is not to eliminate the influence of capital in social class, as that is a complex and deeply ingrained aspect of society. The goal is to limit the undue influence that money can have in the political process.

Limiting political advertising is one way to reduce the influence of money in politics and to create a more level playing field where all voices can be heard and represented. By restricting the amount of money that can be spent on political campaigns, it becomes more difficult for a small group of individuals or organizations to dominate the political discourse and to shape policies in their favor.

In this way, limiting political advertising can help to promote fairness and balance in the political process, even if it does not address the broader issues of social class and the role of capital in society.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28172488 - 02/04/23 06:49 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Can you help me to see at which point in the past the political process has been unbiased towards wealth? Where capital owner's voices didn't play a significant role in policy making?

That might help me see this new causal link you're proposing.


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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
    #28172954 - 02/05/23 02:43 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Can you help me to see at which point in the past the political process has been unbiased towards wealth? Where capital owner's voices didn't play a significant role in policy making?

That might help me see this new causal link you're proposing.




It was more unbiased towards wealth before citizens United when corporations and labor unions were subject to limitations on their independent expenditures in federal elections.

These limitations helped to level the playing field and limit the influence of wealthy special interests.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28173044 - 02/05/23 07:21 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Possibly. It's a social valuation. And it is possible that society is increasingly valuing capital over time. IMO that's hard to know. I'd say slavery for example was a much more extreme show of the influence of capital in relation to human life. And all the myriads of policies that followed.

But it's hard to know because the reach is more global now. So it picks on humans in different ways.

I think the value on capital is strong. Whether it was 200 years ago or now. And advertising really doesn't impact that. It's been core for a long time.

How long has India had a caste system?


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
    #28173050 - 02/05/23 07:32 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

You don't think advertising can have an impact on the value placed on capital?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: sudly]
    #28173054 - 02/05/23 07:34 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

No more than all the other ways capital appears valued by society. If anything, maybe it can replace the need to peacock wealth in more harmful ways.

Maybe it arises because we are becoming less tolerant of the harmful ways.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United allows for unlimited independent expenditure. [Re: Kickle]
    #28173105 - 02/05/23 08:41 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

The value society places on capital is an inherent product of the immense value capital actually creates within society.  No one has to advertise for it because it sells itself.


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