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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27759734 - 05/02/22 09:13 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:

In my ideal imaginationland drug policy doesn't exist because there's no need to regulate drugs in an ideal world and we can take drugs whenever we want without risk of harm. In imaginationland the question of regulating drugs would be as alien to us as the question of regulating sand
:rail2:




Cheers to that!

I've seen some examples of that, even to the point of influencing laws and enforcement- things like traditional fermented drinks, bhang, and even psilocybes in some countries.

I'm honestly more worried about the environmental impact of substances than their effect on peoples' mental states. I think people should be free to do whatever they want with their minds and bodies, but I also have a lot of issues with what constitutes freedom and informed consent. I don't think that, for example, letting 13 year olds take up smoking, without information or understanding about its long-term effects, represents meaningful freedom.

But yeah, seriously, the only drug policies I'm making are personal ones, about what to take/buy/sell/grow. And the ones I fantasize most about from a legal/societal standpoint mostly deal with quality control and avoiding douchebaggery. Like, why the fuck do people have to deal with fentanyl or levamisole in their cocaine? That's just completely unnecessary. Like, I'll just take the baseline level of danger and long-term heart damage, please.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: SharaVabdas] * 2
    #27760776 - 05/02/22 11:19 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SharaVabdas said:
Good point. My ideal drug policy is to entirely dismantle the state, now that you mention it.



I feel that...


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 2
    #27760777 - 05/02/22 11:21 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
Quote:

Rhizomorph said:

In my ideal imaginationland drug policy doesn't exist because there's no need to regulate drugs in an ideal world and we can take drugs whenever we want without risk of harm. In imaginationland the question of regulating drugs would be as alien to us as the question of regulating sand
:rail2:




Cheers to that!

I've seen some examples of that, even to the point of influencing laws and enforcement- things like traditional fermented drinks, bhang, and even psilocybes in some countries.

I'm honestly more worried about the environmental impact of substances than their effect on peoples' mental states. I think people should be free to do whatever they want with their minds and bodies, but I also have a lot of issues with what constitutes freedom and informed consent. I don't think that, for example, letting 13 year olds take up smoking, without information or understanding about its long-term effects, represents meaningful freedom.

But yeah, seriously, the only drug policies I'm making are personal ones, about what to take/buy/sell/grow. And the ones I fantasize most about from a legal/societal standpoint mostly deal with quality control and avoiding douchebaggery. Like, why the fuck do people have to deal with fentanyl or levamisole in their cocaine? That's just completely unnecessary. Like, I'll just take the baseline level of danger and long-term heart damage, please.



Agreeed! Age restrictions actually have an evidence base for being effective in reducing harm unlike adult prohibition.

Safe supply saves lives!


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Offlinehigh_desert
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #27798512 - 05/30/22 01:28 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Imagine a world or country where every drug is legal. Would that be your ideal drug policy? Or would you rather there be specific restrictions on certain drugs?

For me, i would legalize all the safe, classic psychs and then have some kind of restrictive policy for the more dangerous drugs like coke, meth and heroin, to prevent accidental deaths.

What would your custom Drug Policy be like?


*fixed typos




I agree with this. I think mushrooms should be controlled like legal weed, LSD should be completely decriminalized but somehow not generally available to the public in, and heroin meth and coke should be decriminalized. Caging people for drug use alone is barbaric.

A real question I have is what do we do about alcohol.. After all my years working in an ER I think alcohol and heroin share the top spot for the worst drugs. Alcohol's effect on society is like a slow motion 50 car pileup and its severe effects on the individual is pretty much what it's like when people lose it to dementia. Heroin bleeds people dry like a vampire and kills them slow, makes them desperate and it's very sad. But over the course of a few hours alcohol can make a relatively normal person completely insane, dangerous irresponsible weapon and the hardcore long term physical effects of it are terrifying... It looks like a fever dream in hell. Of all the messed up drug events i saw in an ER, the alcohol related ones were far and away the worst, and I've frequently seen and fought with people in deep violent meth psychosis. In 6 years I never once saw any problematic patients on lsd or mushrooms, except one 14 year old with preexisting severe psychological issues.

Anyway, I always like to bring up alcohol in any discussion about psychs legality because the fact that alcohol is legal and encouraged in the US but psilocybin, mdma and lsd are not only illegal but schedule 1 is so profoundly wrong that it made me lose faith in society from a young age and I never really got it back.

I can go on and on about this sorry..


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: high_desert] * 1
    #27798933 - 05/30/22 11:18 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

high_desert said:
Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Imagine a world or country where every drug is legal. Would that be your ideal drug policy? Or would you rather there be specific restrictions on certain drugs?

For me, i would legalize all the safe, classic psychs and then have some kind of restrictive policy for the more dangerous drugs like coke, meth and heroin, to prevent accidental deaths.

What would your custom Drug Policy be like?


*fixed typos




I agree with this. I think mushrooms should be controlled like legal weed, LSD should be completely decriminalized but somehow not generally available to the public in, and heroin meth and coke should be decriminalized. Caging people for drug use alone is barbaric.

A real question I have is what do we do about alcohol.. After all my years working in an ER I think alcohol and heroin share the top spot for the worst drugs. Alcohol's effect on society is like a slow motion 50 car pileup and its severe effects on the individual is pretty much what it's like when people lose it to dementia. Heroin bleeds people dry like a vampire and kills them slow, makes them desperate and it's very sad. But over the course of a few hours alcohol can make a relatively normal person completely insane, dangerous irresponsible weapon and the hardcore long term physical effects of it are terrifying... It looks like a fever dream in hell. Of all the messed up drug events i saw in an ER, the alcohol related ones were far and away the worst, and I've frequently seen and fought with people in deep violent meth psychosis. In 6 years I never once saw any problematic patients on lsd or mushrooms, except one 14 year old with preexisting severe psychological issues.

Anyway, I always like to bring up alcohol in any discussion about psychs legality because the fact that alcohol is legal and encouraged in the US but psilocybin, mdma and lsd are not only illegal but schedule 1 is so profoundly wrong that it made me lose faith in society from a young age and I never really got it back.

I can go on and on about this sorry..




It's interesting how Prohibition gets trotted out as an "example" of how criminalizing drug use doesn't work.

It really seems like we've lost all historical context on how Prohibition came to be, and also what it actually meant.

All your experiences in the ER times 100. Dudes blowing their entire paychecks on booze, letting their kids starve, and beating on their wives. It still happens today, of course, but shit like that was rampant in the early 20th century. There was a legit full-blown social and public health crisis, and the sort of alcohol abuse that was rife in a lot of communities was completely incompatible with the advancement of women in society.

As for Prohibition itself, it was a lot more like "The entire US is a dry county" than it was a 1990's style war on drugs. People didn't go to prison for having a couple beers on them. Al Capone went down for tax evasion.

All in all, it was probably just a reaction to an insane situation, and probably did help temper some of the madness.

But what can you do, really? Alcohol is probably the easiest drug to produce, and it's now been introduced to every culture on earth. People will always find a way to make and consume it. I guess it's ultimately down to socialization and advertising.


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Edited by B Traven (05/30/22 11:19 AM)


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Offlinehigh_desert
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven]
    #27804976 - 06/03/22 10:05 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

I just think there has to be some kind of uniformity in substance laws that reflects the actual dangers of the substances. I definitely don't think alcohol prohibition is practical or even necessary but the hypocrisy of psilocybin and thc prohibition in the face of alcohol's neverending havok on society is just deeply wrong. If the negative effects are certainly less than alcohol, then how could any society in good conscience prohibit them so strongly? When it comes to locking people up in cages for abstract harms to society then matters of principle should matter immensely.
Of course we all know that these laws are relics of an unconscionable attack on dissenting voices in American society.. Back then AND now the use of these draconian laws are no different than Putin locking up his critics for whatever bullshit they can concoct or any other of a number of examples of such tyranny.


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: high_desert]
    #27805643 - 06/04/22 12:07 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

high_desert said:
I just think there has to be some kind of uniformity in substance laws that reflects the actual dangers of the substances. I definitely don't think alcohol prohibition is practical or even necessary but the hypocrisy of psilocybin and thc prohibition in the face of alcohol's neverending havok on society is just deeply wrong. If the negative effects are certainly less than alcohol, then how could any society in good conscience prohibit them so strongly? When it comes to locking people up in cages for abstract harms to society then matters of principle should matter immensely.
Of course we all know that these laws are relics of an unconscionable attack on dissenting voices in American society.. Back then AND now the use of these draconian laws are no different than Putin locking up his critics for whatever bullshit they can concoct or any other of a number of examples of such tyranny.




Psilocybin laws are another pretty wild story.

Pretty much amounts to an accident of history. I don't think anyone involved in passing those laws really knew or cared much about psilocybes at all.

There was research being conducted into both LSD and psilocybin as therapeutic drugs. That was the only reason hallucinogenic mushrooms were on the government's radar at all, rather than in the traditional shadows where they belonged. Then clowns like Timothy Leary blew the acid scene up, and naturally that lead to a moral panic. When they went to address LSD in legislation and regulations, they basically included mushrooms as an after-thought, since they were now associated with acid in the psychiatric literature. I don’t think there was really anyone to advocate for or against them when that all went down. They just got lumped in with a bunch of other stuff, and nobody has really known what to make of it ever since.

Not trying to get all radical and shit here, but to be fair, American society is and always has been pretty into repression and hypocrisy.


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OfflineNakedNexus
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #27813469 - 06/10/22 02:26 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Not trying to get all radical and shit here, but to be fair, American society is and always has been pretty into repression and hypocrisy.




Oh for sure, just look at our attitudes towards sex; obsessed with it but censor everything regarding it. We are bat shit insane in our paradoxical natures. I think most of our crises devolve down to mental health issues on a global scale.


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #27892104 - 08/06/22 05:24 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I'd make them all legal except for crap like bath salts, flakka and spice, and if somebody does something stupid, they'd have to do jailtime or probation with drug tests but they'd only be drug tested for the drug(s) that contributed to their stupidity. Each time they failed a drug test, they'd have to serve double the amount of jail time they did last time.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: thirtygoats] * 1
    #27895926 - 08/09/22 02:05 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I don't believe 'bath salts' are a valid pharmacological category. The term has traditionally been used by mass media to fuel a moral panic surrounding the use of Novel Psychoactive Substances (NPS); predominantly referring to cathinones.

I also don't believe there is a pharmacological or social basis for criminalizing cathinones over any other class of stimulant - methylone or mephedrone isn't much riskier to the individual nor society compared to traditional amphetamines such as methamphetamine. In fact, I would argue they are lower-risk in many instances

I won't lie, it sounds like you just don't like drugs which have become infamous in the media due to being poorly understood & a few case reports being sensationalized... Methamphetamine, cocaine, etc. etc. was the same at some point in time.

Legalize all drugs! (I.e., legalize the existence of drug users) :heart:

Quote:

thirtygoats said:
and if somebody does something stupid,



If somebody does something stupid why can't we just charge them for doing that stupid thing and not for the substance use? We do this with alcohol...

I encourage everyone in this thread to be weary of how War on Drugs-style thinking may be permeating our efforts to liberate people who use drugs (e.g., 'X drug is better than X drug' or 'we should mandate that people stop using drugs in X circumstances/for X drugs'). Too often we end up reproducing the very structures we are trying to resist in our resistance strategies & ideologies :super:


--------------------

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Edited by Rhizomorph (08/09/22 02:10 PM)


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27898689 - 08/11/22 10:02 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
I don't believe 'bath salts' are a valid pharmacological category. The term has traditionally been used by mass media to fuel a moral panic surrounding the use of Novel Psychoactive Substances (NPS); predominantly referring to cathinones.

I also don't believe there is a pharmacological or social basis for criminalizing cathinones over any other class of stimulant - methylone or mephedrone isn't much riskier to the individual nor society compared to traditional amphetamines such as methamphetamine. In fact, I would argue they are lower-risk in many instances

I won't lie, it sounds like you just don't like drugs which have become infamous in the media due to being poorly understood & a few case reports being sensationalized... Methamphetamine, cocaine, etc. etc. was the same at some point in time.

Legalize all drugs! (I.e., legalize the existence of drug users) :heart:

Quote:

thirtygoats said:
and if somebody does something stupid,



If somebody does something stupid why can't we just charge them for doing that stupid thing and not for the substance use? We do this with alcohol...

I encourage everyone in this thread to be weary of how War on Drugs-style thinking may be permeating our efforts to liberate people who use drugs (e.g., 'X drug is better than X drug' or 'we should mandate that people stop using drugs in X circumstances/for X drugs'). Too often we end up reproducing the very structures we are trying to resist in our resistance strategies & ideologies :super:




Alcohol use is criminalized in some situations. Just as a for-instance, I got a "minor in possession" charge when I was 20. The cops shut down a keg party and interviewed every single person as they walked out the door. If you said you were 21, they checked your ID. If you said you hadn't been drinking, they breathalyzed you. If you failed the breathalyzer, they'd arrest you on the spot for providing false information. Basically, the only thing to do was say, "yes, been drinking, no, not 21" and collect your summons to appear before judge Roy Bean a month later. I later met someone from the same state where this happened who used the term "drunkard" on occasion. Wasn't like this guy didn't drink, either. That was just his preferred King James Bible way of talking about people who were too drunk for his liking and doing stupid shit.

From the taxation/financial issues, to the schizoid attitudes, to the racial disparities, American attitudes towards alcohol absolutely laid the psychic foundation for the war on drugs.

But I digress. Yeah, crack babies are a myth, and meth mouth is mainly just from pounding too much mountain dew and passing out with your mouth open. Every single criminalized drug got there because some "out" group was using it, and horror stories got out to the general public. Chinese men getting white women hooked on opium. Mexicans smoking Marijuana and losing their minds. Hippies dropping acid and turning gay/slutty/communist.

I'm pretty sure the big story with bath salts was the homeless man in South Florida who ate another guy's face off. I don't even know how true the story is, but I do know that there's a high probability that people in South Florida who are living under a bridge and smoking bath salts probably have lots of other psychological comorbidities. But a homeless zombie wacked out on some crazy new synthetic drug is the perfect boogie man for a moral panic.

I grew up in a time and place where PCP was wildly popular. At the end of the day, despite all the issues with that drug- many of which were just related to purity and inconsistent dosing- I only ever heard one really fucked up story about it, and that was just a kid who smoked and started seizing up. Never knew anyone who put their fist through a plate glass window or lost their shit in any other way. Just lots of sleepy conversations with people who were rather obviously "on drugs."

All the craziest shit happens on alcohol, or alcohol in combination with something else, and you're right, for the most part we just let it slide and address the behavior.

I'm actually pretty fed up with all the  conversations around legalizing weed, and statements like "we can put the bad guys out of business" or "weed should be legal because it's harmless." Like you said, it really is drug war thinking. Nothing is truly harmless, the "bad guys" have done a pretty good job of supplying the world with weed, and corporate cannabis seems perfectly poised to shit the bed on just aboit every level.

Proper mental health care would go a long way towards addressing these issues, as would a revamping and expansion of various social services. But then they wouldn't have as many psychological issues to exploit and profit from, and people might not put up with as much abuse at work if they lost their fear of poverty.


Edited by B Traven (08/11/22 10:07 AM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 2
    #27914255 - 08/22/22 08:00 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
But then they wouldn't have as many psychological issues to exploit and profit from, and people might not put up with as much abuse at work if they lost their fear of poverty.



So...in short, capitalism is to blame?

(slightly joking but only partially; the issue evidently intersects with other economic & social policies & social inequality as a whole)

I agree with everything you said. If 'good' drugs caused an opioid epidemic and the 'bad' drugs can cure PTSD, we have to not only start having - but also normalize - discourse that interrogates drug war logic.

repeating to people that bath salts are just cathinones twisted into a terrible image of face eating by the media, which often sides with the war on drugs, gets tiresome; not everyone is intent on learning when they often have a personal attachment to drug war logic that helps cope when confronted by the complex & uncertain terrain of psychoactives' risks and benefits (not referring to anyone on here, but the general public, for clarification!). "hard drugs" and "soft drugs" is an appealing dichotomy for those who have little background in psychopharmacology or drug policy. Yet this heuristic contradicts every empirically sound study on drug harms (e.g., Nutt et al.) when considering both harms to individual & society.

Again, it's drug war logic and I've seen this theme underpinning most of the drug policies suggested in this thread; we are ironically assuming drug war logic in our very efforts to resist the drug war when we categorize drugs this way. each drug requires an extensive review of its psychopharmacology & impact on society to determine an individual drug policy for each drug.

This is just the ongoing struggle though. Good on ya for being informed :hug:


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Edited by Rhizomorph (08/22/22 08:02 PM)


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Invisiblethetruthsohelp
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Rhizomorph] * 1
    #28166149 - 01/31/23 03:42 PM (11 months, 20 days ago)

DO I own my own body and mind or does the state? Thats really what it boils down too. 100% legalization, all drugs accross the board is the policy i would choose.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: thetruthsohelp]
    #28167353 - 02/01/23 10:37 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

thetruthsohelp said:
DO I own my own body and mind or does the state? Thats really what it boils down too. 100% legalization, all drugs accross the board is the policy i would choose.



I think this is too simple... I argue that we need to look at it as a spectrum, not a dichotomy; I.e., autonomy as a continuum. Some people have less & some have more; there is no absolute freedom or constraint (this is essentially social conflict theory).

Nobody has full autonomy; we give that one up to enjoy collective freedoms such as healthcare, freedom from risk of bodily harm &/or death (we give up the freedom to not wear a seatbelt). The freedom to have affordable healthcare (healthcare costs cannot sustain people being stupid at mass-scale). On a deeper level, we give up some degree of autonomy during micro-interactions with other individuals & cultures on a day-to-day basis as well.

We exist in a constant push and pull of autonomy and structural limitations; we reproduce social norms or break them; but nobody is free of some constraint and thus, social control is an inherent part of life.

So the institutions need rules governing individual autonomy only to the extent necessary. The political debate often regards what is actually necessary; where do we break the rules (laws or social norms) and when do we reinforce them (we can all agree rape is bad, for example).

-----------------

I agree with legalization, but there needs to be systems in place to avoid the burden on the medical system - which is shared & utilized collectively, as well as paid for by tax dollars. There are effective ways to do this but we must recognize that there likely requires some degree of structural constraint on individuals' autonomy. Screening procedures, psychoeducation, waiting periods, etc. are a must if we don't want to see the opioid crisis just skyrocket (more rapidly than it already is, that is).

People should be allowed to access a pharmaceutical supply of drugs, especially if they are treating a medical condition (substance use disorders) which can be deadly due to the contaminated drug supply, and deadly withdrawals (e.g., benzos). But, we can't just have your local gas station selling heroin to any passerby who feels the impulse to try while just going about their Saturday afternoon.

Classical psychedelics are a different story, but we need laws consistent with the psychopharmacology of each chem; not blanket policies that are rooted in racist drug war logics. The same goes for unrealistic ideals surrounding legalization & purist notions of liberty (that could probably never exist outside an extremely chaotic/lawless society anyways)


--------------------

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:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (02/01/23 10:38 AM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: thetruthsohelp] * 3
    #28177329 - 02/08/23 09:06 AM (11 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

thetruthsohelp said:
DO I own my own body and mind or does the state? Thats really what it boils down too. 100% legalization, all drugs accross the board is the policy i would choose.



So, you should be able to buy cyanide at the local CVS?  Ricin?


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Enlil]
    #28177453 - 02/08/23 10:33 AM (11 months, 13 days ago)

:cookiemonster:


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Rhizomorph] * 2
    #28203313 - 02/24/23 10:14 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

ideally?

first and foremost, i would eliminate poverty and homelessness. that helps a lot with the baggage that comes with addiction to the harder stuff.

then i would like to see all drugs legalized, age-restricted, and regulated for purity, with strong public education campaigns on how to safely consume, and safe consumption sites for adults.

then i would want to see an end to the drug war along with a release of all drug offenders who are not a danger to the public or themselves.

then i would want us to make amends to all the countries we have destroyed in the name of the drug war.


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #28203321 - 02/24/23 10:33 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

I like the recent law changes where I live.
It is not illegal to possess drugs under a certain weight.
THC is legal, ketamine is legal for treatment assistance,C-PTSD, PTSD & depression.
I believe shrooms will be next.

The rest... I am undecided but I do like that we are steering away from prosecuting people for drugs.


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: millzy] * 2
    #28203322 - 02/24/23 10:34 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
ideally?

first and foremost, i would eliminate poverty and homelessness. that helps a lot with the baggage that comes with addiction to the harder stuff.

then i would like to see all drugs legalized, age-restricted, and regulated for purity, with strong public education campaigns on how to safely consume, and safe consumption sites for adults.

then i would want to see an end to the drug war along with a release of all drug offenders who are not a danger to the public or themselves.

then i would want us to make amends to all the countries we have destroyed in the name of the drug war.



Great answer....
100% agree


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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”


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InvisibleRhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Other


Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 785
Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: millzy] * 1
    #28206639 - 02/27/23 11:31 AM (10 months, 25 days ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
ideally?

first and foremost, i would eliminate poverty and homelessness. that helps a lot with the baggage that comes with addiction to the harder stuff.

then i would like to see all drugs legalized, age-restricted, and regulated for purity, with strong public education campaigns on how to safely consume, and safe consumption sites for adults.

then i would want to see an end to the drug war along with a release of all drug offenders who are not a danger to the public or themselves.

then i would want us to make amends to all the countries we have destroyed in the name of the drug war.



:whatshesaid::snoopyes::cookiemonster::awesomenod::elmo::seriousthumbsup:

psychoeducation, psychoeducation and more pharmaco-psychoeducation!


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (02/27/23 11:32 AM)


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