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OfflineKickleM
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Preventative medicine * 4
    #28167298 - 02/01/23 09:38 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Two viewpoints to start, then the tie-in to preventative medicine.

1: Emotions are beyond our control and we should therefore not beat ourselves up when we experience troublesome emotions. This only adds insult to injury.

2. Emotions are within our control and we should therefore work to cultivate the kindest and healthiest emotional landscape we can. This leads to an emotional life filled with less trouble and disease.

The Dalai Lama describes the second viewpoint from the idea of preventative medicine. Once a negative or harmful emotion is present, it's too late, and yes one needs to heal, not continue to add more negative emotions. But if we can control our response to a negative emotion at that point, why couldn't we control our response before? And so why get to that point in the first place? We all stop the process as soon as we can. But prevention is the best medicine because then you don't have to deal with the sickness in the first place. Thoughts?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28167316 - 02/01/23 10:03 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

The fear of dying for example, is mitigated thru counseling in the moment; which wolf are we going to feed so to speak, the fear or the acceptance.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28167327 - 02/01/23 10:14 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Yeah that's a deep look imo


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: Kickle]
    #28167349 - 02/01/23 10:34 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

We can all accept the inevitability of death, but as preventive medicine I think it is unlikely to prevail as well as counseling in the moment.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28167362 - 02/01/23 10:45 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Yeah I think that's generally true. No need to go that deep unless you're already there.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: Kickle]
    #28167396 - 02/01/23 11:08 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

And what better counseling, I assume, than to hear a voice saying " You we're wrong, God does exist, and I am here to help you cross over."


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: Kickle]
    #28167439 - 02/01/23 11:32 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

"why couldn't we before?"

noble truth #2, desire, long entrenched and all that mess, attachment.


Edited by syncro (02/01/23 11:33 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28167586 - 02/01/23 01:17 PM (11 months, 19 days ago)

sorry Dalai Lama,
you cannot control emotions or any other mental reflexes, but you can introduce relaxing to the image of each emotional aspect of self in your practice (maybe this is what he means by control - deliberately add the idea to your practice), and the result of that is better recovery from when your emotions kick in reflexively, which they still will do, but not so resoundingly, or embarrassingly.

it is a more graceful way to live, and it is honest.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28167752 - 02/01/23 03:34 PM (11 months, 19 days ago)

you cannot control emotions

maybe that's why it wasn't stated to control the emotion
but rather that emotions are within our control

once a negative or harmful emotion is there, too late. missed the window for preventative medicine.
just like once sickness is there, too late to prevent it.

but yeah, if you don't already do this, it's about adding it into practice
adding in context about what relates to cause/cessation of negative emotions and referencing that context
like the context of bacteria in relation to soap and referencing that to wash your hands when sensible


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: Kickle]
    #28167856 - 02/01/23 05:05 PM (11 months, 19 days ago)

Maybe preempt is a good word. And once preemption is practiced there is better ability to interfere at any stage of it as it is recognized. Preemption may be the practice of peace or witnessing, or a more direct counter thought.

I think you just said that. :smile:


Edited by syncro (02/01/23 05:07 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: Kickle]
    #28167901 - 02/01/23 05:41 PM (11 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
you cannot control emotions

maybe that's why it wasn't stated to control the emotion
but rather that emotions are within our control

once a negative or harmful emotion is there, too late. missed the window for preventative medicine.
just like once sickness is there, too late to prevent it.

but yeah, if you don't already do this, it's about adding it into practice
adding in context about what relates to cause/cessation of negative emotions and referencing that context
like the context of bacteria in relation to soap and referencing that to wash your hands when sensible



nothing is in your control but you are here out of interest, so let me continue.
in the practice you reach sustained application with some equanimity and while attempting to maintain your calm, you look back at what you want to work on which is the emotional outburst yesterday at the fish shop when the lady scraped you with her purse - you only need bear upon it for a minute and remain calm, and move to another tear in your emotional fabric or merely resume practice without making any adjustments.

you can ask dalai lama if he agrees with me.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: syncro]
    #28167912 - 02/01/23 05:47 PM (11 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Maybe preempt is a good word. And once preemption is practiced there is better ability to interfere at any stage of it as it is recognized. Preemption may be the practice of peace or witnessing, or a more direct counter thought.

I think you just said that. :smile:




good word yes, but
it is not pre-empt either, once the reflex kicks it kicks and it is worse if when it kicks while you post-pre-empt with a counter kick.

patching the reflex is an associative project, you can only do it offline when relaxed (like in zazen or in therapy), and you have to visit it several times, on different days, in slightly different ways while keeping relaxed.

eventually active relaxing becomes attached to this trigger and that can spread to related triggers if you give it attention in your calm practice.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28167915 - 02/01/23 05:49 PM (11 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Maybe preempt is a good word. And once preemption is practiced there is better ability to interfere at any stage of it as it is recognized. Preemption may be the practice of peace or witnessing, or a more direct counter thought.

I think you just said that. :smile:





Well it strikes me that if I am looking, I will naturally be averse to the negative outcomes which result from negative emotions. And if I am naturally averse, I will naturally look for way to avoid those negative emotions emerging again. Through this process I will then be driven to find the cause or seek help in finding the cause. And if I find a specific cause but it isn't the root cause, I know I need to keep looking. And keep investigating. And I'll know I've reached the root when it begins to work as you said. When it preempts the emergence. And then maybe I can not only uproot it before it emerges, but begin the work to stop planting such seeds all together.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28167926 - 02/01/23 05:59 PM (11 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
you cannot control emotions

maybe that's why it wasn't stated to control the emotion
but rather that emotions are within our control

once a negative or harmful emotion is there, too late. missed the window for preventative medicine.
just like once sickness is there, too late to prevent it.

but yeah, if you don't already do this, it's about adding it into practice
adding in context about what relates to cause/cessation of negative emotions and referencing that context
like the context of bacteria in relation to soap and referencing that to wash your hands when sensible



nothing is in your control but you are here out of interest, so let me continue.
in the practice you reach sustained application with some equanimity and while attempting to maintain your calm, you look back at what you want to work on which is the emotional outburst yesterday at the fish shop when the lady scraped you with her purse - you only need bear upon it for a minute and remain calm, and move to another tear in your emotional fabric or merely resume practice without making any adjustments.

you can ask dalai lama if he agrees with me.




I am here out of interest. Your practice likely looks different than mine. And that would be expected IMO. We are not in the same circumstances, so why should it appear the same?

Equanimity is great
Maintaining calm is cool
Using those tools is groovy as well :thumbup:

If I come across something on the application or accumulation of equanimity from the DL i'll post it :smile:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: Kickle]
    #28168106 - 02/01/23 08:23 PM (11 months, 19 days ago)

my practice is to sit with the patient, not to chase away or block demons, and if they come I sit with them. I don't see root causes, but I see the straws that break the camels' backs and I sit with them.


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InvisibleLithop
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: Kickle]
    #28168519 - 02/02/23 04:04 AM (11 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:But if we can control our response to a negative emotion at that point, why couldn't we control our response before?



Because we're human and have so many factors to consider that these things can easily pass us (me lol) by. I'm sure of the fact that there are times where not only am I not controlling or moderating my response emotionally, but not even aware I'm in a situation that it ought to be done! Hence: adopting practise as the first step toward honest awareness.

Quote:

Buster_Brown said: which wolf are we going to feed so to speak, the fear or the acceptance.



:yesnod:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
good word yes, but
it is not pre-empt either, once the reflex kicks it kicks and it is worse if when it kicks while you post-pre-empt with a counter kick.
patching the reflex is an associative project, you can only do it offline when relaxed (like in zazen or in therapy), and you have to visit it several times, on different days, in slightly different ways while keeping relaxed.
eventually active relaxing becomes attached to this trigger and that can spread to related triggers if you give it attention in your calm practice.



So the idea is to, through practise and honest view/understanding, 'patch' the reflex so the counter-kick and kick cancel one another out but in a way that you're still aware of the choice you could have made? (Seeing the possible outcomes and using calculated compassion to choose saying "No problem." instead of shouting at the bag lady in the fish shop) If so, is the overall excersise there that of preventative medicine?

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I don't see root causes, but I see the straws that break the camels' backs and I sit with them.



:toast: The power that comes from offering nothing but your honest prescence. Fuckin 'A.

Quote:

Kickle said:
And keep investigating. And I'll know I've reached the root when it begins to work as you said. When it preempts the emergence. And then maybe I can not only uproot it before it emerges, but begin the work to stop planting such seeds all together.



Stopping planting the seeds after such consideration feels like preventative medicine to me, and falls more into category 2 of the OP as I see it.

Cheers! :psybong:


--------------------


๐ŸŒฌ๏ธ ๐ŸŒป โžžโžžโžž โฎโฎโฎโฎ ๐ŸŒˆ โนโ‘คโ“ฟ ๐ŸŒฌ๏ธ ๐ŸŒป โžžโžžโžž โฎโฎโฎโฎ ๐ŸŒˆ โนโ‘คโ“ฟ  ๐ŸŒฌ๏ธ ๐ŸŒป โžžโžžโžž โฎโฎโฎโฎ ๐ŸŒˆ โนโ‘คโ“ฟ


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: Lithop]
    #28168591 - 02/02/23 06:24 AM (11 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Lithop said:
...

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
good word yes, but
it is not pre-empt either, once the reflex kicks it kicks and it is worse if when it kicks while you post-pre-empt with a counter kick.
patching the reflex is an associative project, you can only do it offline when relaxed (like in zazen or in therapy), and you have to visit it several times, on different days, in slightly different ways while keeping relaxed.
eventually active relaxing becomes attached to this trigger and that can spread to related triggers if you give it attention in your calm practice.



So the idea is to, through practise and honest view/understanding, 'patch' the reflex so the counter-kick and kick cancel one another out but in a way that you're still aware of the choice you could have made? (Seeing the possible outcomes and using calculated compassion to choose saying "No problem." instead of shouting at the bag lady in the fish shop) If so, is the overall excersise there that of preventative medicine?




I don't see programming by anticipation working at all, sorry if that is what you got from my poor example.
I do see a generalist approach of patching in calm clarity to challenged feelings, so this specific history can be used in contemplation while preserving one's equanimity, thereby being the calm friend you need.

Quote:

Lithop:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I don't see root causes, but I see the straws that break the camels' backs and I sit with them.



:toast: The power that comes from offering nothing but your honest prescence. Fuckin 'A.




yes the presence - inserting the creative mind where you are in the moment.

I think it is easier to understand dignity than compassion but they go to the same place.

Note: I honestly fail more than I succeed, and have run rather than standing or being with my people in trouble. No excuse.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28168685 - 02/02/23 08:21 AM (11 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
my practice is to sit with the patient, not to chase away or block demons, and if they come I sit with them. I don't see root causes, but I see the straws that break the camels' backs and I sit with them.




Demons? I don't follow, what are you talking about here?

Aspiring for a kind and healthy mind doesn't involve demons does it? It seems to me to involve an unkind and unhealthy mind.

Where in equanimity is aspiration to be avoided?
Where in equanimity is recognizing aversion to be avoided?
Where in equanimity is kindness not to be valued?
Where in equanimity is any obstacle to changes that lead to health and well-being?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: Kickle]
    #28168713 - 02/02/23 08:49 AM (11 months, 19 days ago)

not demons then,
just what you want to be preventative about.

demon has fewer syllables than 'what you want to be preventative about'

strife is better and fewer syllables, forgive me again.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Preventative medicine [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28168725 - 02/02/23 09:00 AM (11 months, 19 days ago)

If it feels like strife then strife is a good starting point IMO. Recognizing the aversion present in strife. And exploring whether feelings of strife are unhealthy or unkind.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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