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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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The global economic "pie" * 1
    #28158963 - 01/26/23 07:56 PM (1 year, 1 day ago)

The central issue with capitalism is that the pie is not large enough for everyone to be comfortable, especially globally. And to enlarge the pie still further is counterproductive because it only exacerbates the very real and very critical environmental crises we face. As things are, the pie is already too large, and yet the population only increases rapidly. This is a very deep basic flaw.

Is there any way, today, to provide, in a satisfactory way, for all eight billion of us without utterly destroying the life-sustaining capacities of the planet?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28158985 - 01/26/23 08:19 PM (1 year, 1 day ago)

I think  best case scenario: capitalism is doomed by labor issues. There may be a way to sustain consumers and produce enough, technically. But even in that case, I don't see how there will be enough jobs to drive it economically.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28159025 - 01/26/23 08:55 PM (1 year, 1 day ago)

I don't see a path environmentally, unless there is some free, accessible power/sustainable energy for all, that has very little impact on the Earth. If the world could agree not to exploit this, then there is a shot....it is a pipedream, though as a central tenant of the economic philosophy is that production includes the  factors of land, labor, and capital and the explotation of such.

Past this, human nature itself would have to change. Economics is the managing of wants and needs. As long as the populace places a higher calling on wants, we will remain where we are. I would like a powertool. Is that a need or a want? Would it make it easier for menial tasks? Of course, yet human civilization has existed for thousands of years without such.

Who gets to decide if it is a want or need? Alternatively, how many humans will turn away the opportunity for excessive wants, if given the chance? Do any of us have what it takes to forgo this for the betterment of the world? To be honest, I don't.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineLucisM
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28159267 - 01/27/23 12:07 AM (1 year, 1 day ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I don't see a path environmentally, unless there is some free, accessible power/sustainable energy for all




I need to learn how to "guerrilla style" create some solar panels, it seems strange having to pay for solar.

How about nuclear fusion, I wonder if that could be used in the future as an energy source for everyone.


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OfflineFridgedoor
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: Lucis]
    #28159273 - 01/27/23 12:20 AM (1 year, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Lucis said:
How about nuclear fusion, I wonder if that could be used in the future as an energy source for everyone.



It seems like there has been a breakthrough regarding nuclear fusion in the end of 2022.

However I wonder if all the energy suppliers will allow this technology to evolve/be accessible to all. They would loose their relevance in the world.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28159343 - 01/27/23 05:06 AM (1 year, 1 day ago)

in your plan of accessible energy at [no cost] the difference between want and need is one of access vs no access -> i.e. if getting the tool can be shown to expend less energy down the road, then the case is made for need.

after that the request is queued and other priorities rule.

human nature is not what is imagined and railed against as human nature. Mostly it is defensive reflexes against shame and disappointments. We will manage the boon of free energy.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28159397 - 01/27/23 06:47 AM (1 year, 1 day ago)

So is a cheeseburger a want or a need?

You state  human nature consists of defensive reflexes, shame, and disappointment....I dont see how that would make the situation of addressing wants and needs any better. We may disagree on nomenclature, but those core issues propel excessive wants.


As far as it being free...why isn't oil free? The speculation of the market for oil would carry over to that of any "free" energy, thereby not making it so.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/27/23 06:49 AM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28159401 - 01/27/23 06:59 AM (1 year, 1 day ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
The central issue with capitalism is that the pie is not large enough for everyone to be comfortable, especially globally. And to enlarge the pie still further is counterproductive because it only exacerbates the very real and very critical environmental crises we face. As things are, the pie is already too large, and yet the population only increases rapidly. This is a very deep basic flaw.

Is there any way, today, to provide, in a satisfactory way, for all eight billion of us without utterly destroying the life-sustaining capacities of the planet?




The trend for the last 100 years has been an increased standard of living across the board, yet the degree to which standards go up varies a lot.

When the standard of living is high enough population begins to go into a deficit. Ideally this would be a controlled deficit but I don't think this is an area humanity has a good grasp on so far. There may be potential for significant population crashes which will be problematic.

The question is whether to try and lift the entirety of the population up to the point we are effectively managing our numbers, presumably with a measured lowering of population to a sustainable level. If there is not enough energy/pie to do this then population rates and environmental issues will continue to be a long term problem. Ironic in a way.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: Rahz]
    #28159415 - 01/27/23 07:18 AM (1 year, 1 day ago)

The trend of increasing standard of living over the last 100 years has been a positive one, but it is important to consider the distribution of these improvements. While some segments of the population have seen significant improvements, others have not. One approach to address this issue could be to focus on improving standards of living for all individuals in a more equitable way. This would require a comprehensive and holistic approach that considers not only economic and social factors, but also environmental and energy constraints.

Capitalism doesn't get along very well with constraints though. It's antithetical to the freedom espoused.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: Kickle]
    #28159431 - 01/27/23 07:32 AM (1 year, 1 day ago)

Equity is expensive for various reasons. It and other issues, government and economic models in general make it all problematic. Wars disease and famine may play a large roll in population control over the next century.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: Kickle]
    #28159439 - 01/27/23 07:42 AM (1 year, 1 day ago)

And yet, once those segments have a higher standard of living, the standard would need to be implemented ad infinitum....what of the poor who got this leg up, procreate? The cost and effort would grow exponentially. Who pays for this? I believe this would feed class warfare the likes we have never seen with politicians.

There have been numerous efforts in impoverished countries to address deplorable standards of living. Although commendable, the results have been unsavory to say the least. I did a humanitarian mission and did see true poverty, yet the country's government had some of the most sophisticated surface to air batteries in existence.

So what exactly are we funding? What happens when those supplying the higher standard of living fall on hard times?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/27/23 07:43 AM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28159448 - 01/27/23 07:52 AM (1 year, 1 day ago)

Well I wasn't thinking global equality. I should have specified. If no single nation can attain it, it doesn't make sense to leap to a global standard straight away.

A benefit of aiming more locally is similar to the gains from genetic diversity. Not every nation will approach the issue in the same way. But the effective approaches may survive and spread.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: Kickle]
    #28159494 - 01/27/23 08:32 AM (1 year, 23 hours ago)

I would agree that a custom tailored approach has a higher degree of effectiveness.....I  also believe ecomonic growth doesnt necessarily mean a higher state of happiness.

The main issue is twofold: excessive wants(which take away needs for those struggling) and a better economic system then capitalism. Someone much more smart then myself should try an invent it, however what makes capitalism so formidable is that it is intrinsically futuristic.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/27/23 08:33 AM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28159514 - 01/27/23 08:44 AM (1 year, 23 hours ago)

Well to a large degree I think that predicting a system has sci-fi validity but not much more.

Did anyone predict that television and movies would be the creative, social and economic force that they are, before the medium to create such things existed? Video games? Social media?

Creativity flows into new mediums, and it flows all over the place. Some things make it and others don't.

There are new mediums being created at lighting speed right now. Every field of study is being flooded with new abilities and tools. Who knows what creative, social and economic changes may arise.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineLucisM
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: Kickle]
    #28159566 - 01/27/23 09:20 AM (1 year, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
There are new mediums being created at lighting speed right now. Every field of study is being flooded with new abilities and tools. Who knows what creative, social and economic changes may arise.





I am curious how these new mediums will help the fields of study associated with the planets health, animals well being, and improving quality of life for humans.

It seems like we should be using some of the new mediums which are coming out to improve the planet first so that we can improve the well being for all sentient beings. I know there's a lot of "doomer" minded individuals out there with negative thoughts about what the future holds and they forget to live their best life in the present.  Hopefully some of the new mediums can raise the quality of life for everyone.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28159588 - 01/27/23 09:53 AM (1 year, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
...
The main issue is twofold: excessive wants(which take away needs for those struggling) and a better economic system then capitalism. Someone much more smart then myself should try an invent it, however what makes capitalism so formidable is that it is intrinsically futuristic.




excessive wants can be mitigated by suppressing the kinds of advertising that engender wanting vs information.

the cultural shift therefore should include moving away from motivational (political and consumerist) messaging, to honest news and encyclopedic information.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: Lucis]
    #28159603 - 01/27/23 10:00 AM (1 year, 22 hours ago)

Yeah, I'm curious too.

Stemming from a place of great privilege, I feel a strong responsibility to work on my mental landscape. People spend a lot of time tidying up their physical surroundings when company is coming over. But we can keep most of our mental clutter hidden from view and so don't feel any need to tidy. Imagine if every thought were visible? It might make a stronger impetuous to tidy the mind the way we tidy a home.

I think that in the rise of AI technology, similar to the rise of social interactions on the Internet, an untidy mind starts to be revealed much more clearly in humanity.

And so at least for me it does have an increased imperative to work on the way my mind relates to others, especially in that anonymous, unseen, and largely unrestricted way. Don't wait to start cleaning up imo :lol:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: Kickle]
    #28159710 - 01/27/23 11:22 AM (1 year, 20 hours ago)

this tidy mind objective is a bit school-marm-ish, (Mr. Fixit maybe?)

yeah definitely nicer if you keep your place neat and simple but the mind is what it is.
the mind is not your place nor your work table nor what you want to be on about, it is everything you ever were exposed to and attracted to and it has a surprisingly active and reflexive nature.

so it is not going to cooperate with the tidy mental approach, but it will cooperate with an honest approach, and a custodial approach (including some daily practice); and that also might help you keep your place tidy; but your place is not your mind which includes all places you have ever been at or dreamed of, and not quite a mess exactly - it is more of an impressionable thing that has been impressed by more than can be fixed by Mr. Tidy.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: Kickle]
    #28159735 - 01/27/23 11:34 AM (1 year, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I think  best case scenario: capitalism is doomed by labor issues. There may be a way to sustain consumers and produce enough, technically. But even in that case, I don't see how there will be enough jobs to drive it economically.





This is a very interesting point. Of course, it resonates with the potential for a universal basic income system, the likes of which will eventually be necessary because in an evolving and streamlining economy, jobs will be lost and lost forever. It's ironic to me: It's the great dream of centuries to have machines perform the work, while we rest and create and do what we will. Now that we are at the doorstep, or even actually there already, we are schizophrenic and the call for more jobs and higher wages is all we can continue to muster.

Instead of a paradigm which embraces automation, our politicians can only talk about jobs jobs jobs. Sooner or later the conversation is going to have to flip.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The global economic "pie" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28159742 - 01/27/23 11:37 AM (1 year, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

excessive wants can be mitigated by suppressing the kinds of advertising that engender wanting vs information.

the cultural shift therefore should include moving away from motivational (political and consumerist) messaging, to honest news and encyclopedic information.




No way to do that legally in the US which also happens to be the Mecca of capitalism. It would be refreshing to receive honest news, but trust me, thats the last thing politicans want.

I get it.....I didn't even know what it was to be a "consumer" for the vast majority of my life. I equated the word with "citizen" or "human" and did a full stop there.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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