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OfflineGreg
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28156895 - 01/25/23 11:59 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
appearance would be far more important to the perceived quality of the product than some miniscule difference in potency



Hell, bag appeal is still pretty important to me and I give 'em away. :shrug:

Quote:

7Suns said:
Greg- if you do the study please post here or link me in the thread,



Absolutely!
I would love input on my plan for the comparison.

I plan to:
  • Fruit multiple identical mini monos with a cube clone, specifically for this comparison.
  • Weigh and catalog each fruiting body separately, or at least in small groups of similar composition and weight, before and after drying.
  • Cull major outliers like aborts, giants, mutants, etc.
  • Do legitimate statistics on drying efficiency between methods; Levene's test, T-test, etc.
  • Compare drying cycle times and power consumption.
  • Post pics of samples for visual comparison.
  • Do Miraculix potency tests on powdered samples from each method.
  • Do subjective comparisons of potency.
  • Repeat potency tests on samples from each method that have been stored in the same manner for x amount of time.
  • Provide all numerical data in csv or json format.


I would like to do proper HPLC analysis but it is quite far outside of my budget.
Even the Miraculix tests might hurt a little right now. :lol:
If there's enough interest when the time comes maybe crowd funding proper testing would be an option.

Another stretch goal would be performing this on more than one species.

Small disclaimer that there's no guarantee on time frame here, I have my hands full with life at the moment!
This is something I've always been curious about though so I'll try to make it happen within the year.

Edited by Greg (01/25/23 12:06 PM)

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Offline7Suns
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg]
    #28156923 - 01/25/23 12:11 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Kizzle you make a good point, in the future it will probably all be synthesized or extracts, or confectionery treats and candies, I’m still interested in the science though

Or more importantly improving drying methods that offers the least amount of loss

A more practical idea instead of a freeze dryer

I imagine you could use something like an air tight container with desiccants and oxygen scavengers (the stuff in hand warmers are a cheap source) or filled with argon gas
Possibly in the fridge/freezer or ambient temperature


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Offline7Suns
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28156936 - 01/25/23 12:18 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Greg that sounds like a solid plan, I would be willing to pitch in any way possible

Believe me my life is chaotic AF I get it lol between running 2 small businesses, having kids, and on the rare occasions hobbies, nothing seems to get the full attention it truly deserves


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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns] * 2
    #28156996 - 01/25/23 12:58 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

since the amounts needed for miraculix testing are so small, it might even be practical to pick large fruits, discard the caps, and split the stems in half for comparison. this would further remove variation as a confounding factor and you could get by with a smaller sample size (less kits)

in fact...stands to reason that you wouldnt need to wait around for steady genetics. if youre comparing fruits to themselves you could just go ahead with an MS grow...right?


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OfflineGreg
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings]
    #28157005 - 01/25/23 01:07 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

That's a good idea for the potency test kit part!

I have an MS Argentina mini mono going right now but it looks kinda shitty to me so I don't have high hopes for it (cold indoor temps and suspect looking spawn).
Will have MS Ghost tubs going at some point, but I have a tamp grow planned first.

Edited by Greg (01/25/23 01:10 PM)

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OfflineGreg
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg]
    #28157118 - 01/25/23 02:21 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Wondering if it would be worth picking up a colorimeter to take the subjectivity out of Miraculix tests. They're a couple hundred bucks but they make it possible to put real numbers to color based reagent tests.

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg] * 1
    #28157128 - 01/25/23 02:30 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

my understanding is that the company has an app that does the reading for you


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OfflineGreg
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings]
    #28157130 - 01/25/23 02:31 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Oh nice that makes it easy!

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Offline7Suns
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg]
    #28160535 - 01/27/23 09:24 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I’m actually very happy with how this thread is turning out and want to say thank you to both Greg and bakedbeings for having good insight valuable input and a level perspective, I kind of half heartedly expected this to devolve into nothing more then “who cares just eat more” comments that you always see floating around

I really want to see this come full circle and I’m curious, this is the first time I’m hearing about the miraculix test, I’m sure a google search is in order, but we’re can I acquire this testing kit, I have plenty of other theories I can expand on using this tech if it’s cheap enough


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28160541 - 01/27/23 09:31 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)



--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Excess Taters] * 3
    #28160581 - 01/27/23 10:20 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

this again.  the highest i have ever been was either on angel dust (maybe overdose at near-lethal toxicity) or mushrooms around 18g where i experienced synesthesia and to this day im not sure if i was telepathic or not.

one is so fucking rare you're not likely to encounter it in your lifetime and if you do, you might not be able
to afford it, and good luck syntheisizing it yourself.

the other is so abundant as to be utterly without worth in terms
of monetary gain that dealers dont even care about it.  it can be grown on fucking ramen noodles and horse shit.
I remember a friend of mine asked me he says "isnt there money in growing shrooms" to which i replied
"fuck no for most normal people an ounce is a lifetime supply"

and yet we keep coming back to this discussion.  shit just last week some dude was geekin out about making mushrooms MORE potent using indole-3 buteric acid and i asked "why" and he was unable to provide an answer that satisfied even his own morbid curiosity. 

with all due respect the bottom line is who gives a shit? a *pinch*--no matter how it was dried--is enough to turn you into a babbling utensil.  two pinches and youre slithering around the house in only a t-shirt, so whats with all the bickering about the potency? 

i too have never seen a real analysis, and the reason is that no scientist worth their salt is going to waste energy on such senseless drivel:  one pinch of nothing isnt enough? try two! two isnt enough, try tamps!

like why isnt anyone working on less potent shrooms? wheres the research for that? i for one wouldn't mind having some variety that wouldnt turn your intestines out at under a gram, ya know?

i dunno.  im a bit drunk and im on the same rant again but if youre seriously one of these people trying to experience ego death at around $100, id look into pcp.  for around 2 grams youll go to the factory floor of yourself where theres nothing but the gears and cogs of pure sensation.  Universes and eternities in a grain of salt.  i mean *or* gather up your minerals and take some serious dosage of shrooms.  remember when mudafucka was eating QP's in a day?  fuck me that was some minerals you just dont see these days.

Anyway.  I dont  know where i was going.  Just put the fuckin things in a dehydrator.  good night i love you all.


Edited by BeefSupremeJr (01/27/23 10:40 PM)

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OfflineKizzle
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #28160674 - 01/28/23 12:11 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

With most varieties low potency strains are not uncommon. I think the compulsion to get more potent mushrooms stems from that. I spent a lot of time looking for ways to increase potency mainly because I was tired of being disappointed. Eventually I realized all I really wanted was consistency in my seemingly inexhaustable supply.


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Offlinejohnukguy
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Kizzle]
    #28160711 - 01/28/23 01:57 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
Eventually I realized all I really wanted was consistency in my seemingly inexhaustible supply.






^ This. Consistency over some miniscule increase in potency any day.


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #28160714 - 01/28/23 01:59 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BeefSupremeJr said:
Anyway.  I dont  know where i was going. 





Maybe not but it was still a good rant. Thank you.


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28160720 - 01/28/23 02:12 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Dehydrators are the gold standard. People have been using them forever with zero issues, I don't know why people insist on debating it still given how many years people have been using dehydrators for, and the quality of the end product produced by a dehydrator. If you're that concerned about potency, you should just isolate a more potent strain, or just eat more.

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: nooneman] * 1
    #28161053 - 01/28/23 09:31 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

there should be a sobriety test (for me) to login to shroomery.  sorry to everyone i was a bit of a mess last night.  science is always cool.  have a great day.

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OfflineGreg
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: BeefSupremeJr] * 1
    #28161165 - 01/28/23 11:01 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

No worries man.
You're right that freeze drying and other methods are a bit silly when dehydrators are cheap and proven to work.

I'm doing it for the novelty since I have access to a Harvest Right at no cost to me.
If I can provide some high quality info along the way for just a little bit more effort I figure why not.
Hopefully it will help settle a long standing question.

After all is said and done I'm sure I'll keep using my 9 tray dehydrator.

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #28161168 - 01/28/23 11:03 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

well to keep the debate alive i have some critiques of the OP. i might be way off, im not a chemist, but i might as well say my piece

Quote:

I also believe I read somewhere that psiK also re-phosphorylates psilocin back into psilocybin as a means of protection
but does dry psilocin need protection? the mushroom lives in a reality without drying technology, promptly removing the moisture might make its own defenses irrelevant

And I might be mistaken but I also thought I read that psiK degrades upon harvesting and possibly heat? Id be interested if anyone has more information on the stability of psiK
enzymes will denature if exposed to certain temps for certain times, but before they hit that threshold the heat is accelerating the reaction. drying at 160 means the fruits start at room temp and gradually climb to 160. i cant say whether the gradient of temperatures they hit over the course of 24 hours kills psiK before it completes its mission or pushes it past the finish line even faster. maybe an analysis of the psilocin and psilocybin content in fresh fruits vs dried fruits would tell us. personally i dont think it matters

I think we can agree freeze dried is far superior compared to the dehydrator or air dried why?

My question I guess would be can we prove or disprove if it’s the vacuum or lack of oxygen that contributes to the higher retention of psilocybin? If so can we just use inert gas like argon with desiccants or heat vacuum combination?
this is the point im most confused about. do you think not letting oxygen touch the outside of the fruit would prevent actives from degrading on the inside? so we should just vacuum seal fresh fruits and be done with it?




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OfflineGreg
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings] * 1
    #28161175 - 01/28/23 11:13 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I can see freeze dryers being superior in two and only two ways:
You can bet your ass that shit is going to be cracker dry.
I would bet money that a higher % of volatiles are extracted in a freeze dryer vs a dehydrator having seen the results both methods achieve with different foods.

Shape and appearance after drying are much nicer with freeze drying as it is in some ways a gentler process.

Having said that, my bet is potency after drying is identical between the two methods.
I don't see some crazy chemical process occurring in one vs the other that somehow makes an appreciable difference when people store dried mushrooms at room temp and nearly atmospheric conditions (aside from some added desiccant) for years without major changes in potency.

Edited by Greg (01/28/23 11:13 AM)

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OfflineGreg
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg] * 4
    #28363628 - 06/17/23 06:57 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

This is not nearly as thorough as I wanted, but I thought I'd post this result as a sort of follow up to my previous comments anyway.
I still plan to do something more rigorous in the future, but between being broke as hell, searching for work, and moving, this is the best I can do.

This is a Miraculix test of freeze-dried and powdered Ps. tampanensis.
If freeze drying did in fact reduce the potency, I don't think I'd really care considering value measured:

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