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Offline7Suns
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dehydration and potency myths
    #28155553 - 01/24/23 01:27 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

It’s been constantly debated in these forums and other groups but I just recently stumbled across some newer information that supports my theory

The age old debate:

Conventional dehydrators that use heat degrades psilocybin

Vs.

Air drying at room temperature degrades psilocybin because it takes longer and psilocybin quickly degrades after harvesting 



My theory:

heat and time are irrelevant if you eliminate oxygen when dehydrating either by vacuum or inert gas atmosphere (I could be wrong it could be that the quick removal of water alone or together with a vacuum atmosphere are responsible)

New research:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27713906

I also believe I read somewhere that psiK also re-phosphorylates psilocin back into psilocybin as a means of protection

And I might be mistaken but I also thought I read that psiK degrades upon harvesting and possibly heat? Id be interested if anyone has more information on the stability of psiK

I think we can agree freeze dried is far superior compared to the dehydrator or air dried

My question I guess would be can we prove or disprove if it’s the vacuum or lack of oxygen that contributes to the higher retention of psilocybin?

If so can we just use inert gas like argon with desiccants or heat vacuum combination?



STILL BEING EDITED PHONE IS ABOUT TO DIE!!!








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OfflineExcess Taters
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns] * 1
    #28155629 - 01/24/23 02:15 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Alright, so freeze drying is not good, I'm not sure where you got that table, but I think they wrote it wrong.  Freeze drying results in the psilocybin degrading into psilocin, according to my understanding.  Freeze dried has more psilocin, but far less psilocybin.

https://www.mind-media.com/go.php?https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Documents/Stability%20of%20Psilocybin%20and%20Analogs.pdf

If you don't want to deal with a weird pdf link, here's the conclusion.



Quote:

Icyurmt said:
That paper linked to above claims that drying at room temperature in the dark does not cause any loss of active tryptamines. That finding is apparently backed up by two other studies.



So, why go through the trouble of freeze drying and potentially making the mushroom bodies more porous/opening them up to faster degradation? Drying at room temp in the dark already preserves all there is to be preserved. If you want dried mushrooms to hit stronger, it's easy to make lemon tek/acidic tea with them.

Ive never tried them myself but I think the perceived increase in potency folks experience with freeze-dried fruits probably comes from the dephosphorylation of some of the psilocybin into less storage stable psilocin. Higher psilocin ratios would make them feel stronger.





Now, I don't know much about all of this and could certainly be wrong, which is why I'm not replying thoroughly to this.  I do believe some of what you're thinking has been proven though.


--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek

Edited by Excess Taters (01/24/23 02:24 PM)

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Excess Taters] * 4
    #28155661 - 01/24/23 02:27 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

i have yet to see a proper study done on potency and drying methods. the ones that keep getting posted here are wack


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings] * 1
    #28155712 - 01/24/23 02:58 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I honestly just think that any differences in drying methods are several orders of magnitude less than the potency swings we see as a result of genetics and cultivation practices. I mean, unless we're including some janky room temperature air-drying setup that allows the tissue to senesce.

In my mind, you either consume fresh-picked material or you don't. The rest is relatively trivial in the grand scheme of things.

And since heated forced-air is very practical and inexpensive, it just seems like the path of least resistance.


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Offline7Suns
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Excess Taters]
    #28155834 - 01/24/23 04:34 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Excess Taters said:
Alright, so freeze drying is not good, I'm not sure where you got that table, but I think they wrote it wrong.  Freeze drying results in the psilocybin degrading into psilocin, according to my understanding.  Freeze dried has more psilocin, but far less psilocybin.

https://www.mind-media.com/go.php?https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Documents/Stability%20of%20Psilocybin%20and%20Analogs.pdf

If you don't want to deal with a weird pdf link, here's the conclusion.



Quote:

Icyurmt said:
That paper linked to above claims that drying at room temperature in the dark does not cause any loss of active tryptamines. That finding is apparently backed up by two other studies.



So, why go through the trouble of freeze drying and potentially making the mushroom bodies more porous/opening them up to faster degradation? Drying at room temp in the dark already preserves all there is to be preserved. If you want dried mushrooms to hit stronger, it's easy to make lemon tek/acidic tea with them.

Ive never tried them myself but I think the perceived increase in potency folks experience with freeze-dried fruits probably comes from the dephosphorylation of some of the psilocybin into less storage stable psilocin. Higher psilocin ratios would make them feel stronger.





Now, I don't know much about all of this and could certainly be wrong, which is why I'm not replying thoroughly to this.  I do believe some of what you're thinking has been proven though.






I’m not trying to say you are wrong, but I do believe you misinterpreted what you read I looked over that link and pic, it’s saying long term storage of already dried mushrooms in the freezer will cause rapid degradation which is in agreement with the link I shared, freeze drying also knowing as lyophilization is where you freeze the mushroom fresh and then allow it to thaw under a vacuum this creates sublimation which is the process where water skips it’s liquid phase and goes straight from a solid to a gas this in turn prevents degradation or oxydation because the enzymes responsible for degradation need water/oxygen in order to de-phosphorylate psilocybin to psilocin

Also your link also confirmed storage in inert gas is preferred so you actually helped my case


--------------------
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INDOOR BLEWITS
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https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27551720

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InvisibleTucky
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28155878 - 01/24/23 04:58 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

7Suns said:
Quote:

Excess Taters said:
Alright, so freeze drying is not good, I'm not sure where you got that table, but I think they wrote it wrong.  Freeze drying results in the psilocybin degrading into psilocin, according to my understanding.  Freeze dried has more psilocin, but far less psilocybin.

https://www.mind-media.com/go.php?https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Documents/Stability%20of%20Psilocybin%20and%20Analogs.pdf

If you don't want to deal with a weird pdf link, here's the conclusion.



Quote:

Icyurmt said:
That paper linked to above claims that drying at room temperature in the dark does not cause any loss of active tryptamines. That finding is apparently backed up by two other studies.



So, why go through the trouble of freeze drying and potentially making the mushroom bodies more porous/opening them up to faster degradation? Drying at room temp in the dark already preserves all there is to be preserved. If you want dried mushrooms to hit stronger, it's easy to make lemon tek/acidic tea with them.

Ive never tried them myself but I think the perceived increase in potency folks experience with freeze-dried fruits probably comes from the dephosphorylation of some of the psilocybin into less storage stable psilocin. Higher psilocin ratios would make them feel stronger.





Now, I don't know much about all of this and could certainly be wrong, which is why I'm not replying thoroughly to this.  I do believe some of what you're thinking has been proven though.






I’m not trying to say you are wrong, but I do believe you misinterpreted what you read I looked over that link and pic, it’s saying long term storage of already dried mushrooms in the freezer will cause rapid degradation which is in agreement with the link I shared, freeze drying also knowing as lyophilization is where you freeze the mushroom fresh and then allow it to thaw under a vacuum this creates sublimation which is the process where water skips it’s liquid phase and goes straight from a solid to a gas this in turn prevents degradation or oxydation because the enzymes responsible for degradation need water/oxygen in order to de-phosphorylate psilocybin to psilocin

Also your link also confirmed storage in inert gas is preferred so you actually helped my case




So freeze drying is good? I have a tub of Jack Frost that I was going to harvest tomorrow and put in the freeze dryer but don't want to fuck them up. With other things like strawberries the process is sped up by freezing them first, just leaving them overnight in the freezer and then into the freeze dryer. Should I do that with my mushrooms?

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OfflineExcess Taters
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28155882 - 01/24/23 05:00 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

7Suns said:
I’m not trying to say you are wrong, but I do believe you misinterpreted what you read I looked over that link and pic, it’s saying long term storage of already dried mushrooms in the freezer will cause rapid degradation which is in agreement with the link I shared, freeze drying also knowing as lyophilization is where you freeze the mushroom fresh and then allow it to thaw under a vacuum this creates sublimation which is the process where water skips it’s liquid phase and goes straight from a solid to a gas this in turn prevents degradation or oxydation because the enzymes responsible for degradation need water/oxygen in order to de-phosphorylate psilocybin to psilocin

Also your link also confirmed storage in inert gas is preferred so you actually helped my case




I don't believe I was wrong, if fresh mushrooms and dried mushrooms have the same potency, why would freeze drying result in more potent mushrooms?  How would it increase Psilocybin when we know that freezing degrades psilocybin into psilocin?  The numbers in that image seem flawed.  I tried reverse image searching it, and looking up various studies, but I was unable to find it.  Clearly it's part of some study, and I didn't want to speak definitively because I couldn't find more data to get a better idea on things and really figure this out.

I don't know much about the freeze drying process, but I don't believe the process can increase the potency, if it's true that both fresh and dried mushrooms are similarly potent.  It should only result in a switch from psilocybin to psilocin, but with my shallow knowledge, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if I'm missing some knowledge that makes me wrong.

Lastly, about inert gas, yeah, that's what I meant when I said "I do believe some of what you've suggested has been proven".  I had no intent to try and prove you wrong, I just wanted to bring more data into the discussion so that I could help you figure out what you're getting at here.


--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Excess Taters] * 2
    #28155892 - 01/24/23 05:09 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

once again, arguing about what studies say is a waste of time when the studies are bunk

freeze dry and dehydrate clones. test the potency. that would be the first legit comparison ever done. post it so we can at least waste our time arguing about good science


--------------------
Confused? Well now you can!
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OfflineExcess Taters
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings]
    #28155910 - 01/24/23 05:23 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

"Don't discuss things, do some work that nobody has apparently ever done in all the years of the shroomery and post the science or do nothing."

Seems a silly stance to me. 

I believe using the best available science, discussing it, and working towards a conclusion is not a worthless or problematic endeavor.  I don't aim to argue or debate, my goal is always to get to the bottom of whatever question is presented.  I don't really care (much) about being right or wrong, I just want to help figure out what is correct, and while buying a freeze dryer, test kits, and doing a ton of work sounds like an amazing way to spend my time and money... I think I'd rather take a different path because the answer to this question holds about $5 of value to me.


--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek

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OfflineLewDoja
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Excess Taters]
    #28155911 - 01/24/23 05:25 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Psilocybin is rapidly metabolized (after ingested) into psilocin, by our body's.

Look into ascorbic acid and how it may help prevent degradation.


You might be on to something...


--------------------
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  Good drugs tell you, that you've had enough"


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OfflineNonagon
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: LewDoja]
    #28155921 - 01/24/23 05:34 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Maybe someone smarter than me read the table differently. But regardless of the method used - how would any dried product have more actives than the fresh mushrooms in equivalent dried grams? Let alone multiple times the amount


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OfflineGreg
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings] * 4
    #28155922 - 01/24/23 05:34 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bakedbeings said:
once again, arguing about what studies say is a waste of time when the studies are bunk

freeze dry and dehydrate clones. test the potency. that would be the first legit comparison ever done. post it so we can at least waste our time arguing about good science




I just got back to this hobby so I don't have clones anymore but as soon as I can pull a decent one from MS grows I plan to do this comparison.
I have access to both a large Excalibur dehydrator and a Harvest Right freeze dryer.
Stay tuned.

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg] * 2
    #28155989 - 01/24/23 06:04 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Greg said:
I just got back to this hobby so I don't have clones anymore but as soon as I can pull a decent one from MS grows I plan to do this comparison.
I have access to both a large Excalibur dehydrator and a Harvest Right freeze dryer.
Stay tuned.



fuck yeah greg


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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg] * 1
    #28155993 - 01/24/23 06:07 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

One aspect that I haven't seen discussed is flash freezing any item to be freeze dried. I remember reading years ago, in regards to food preservation via freeze drying, that simply placing something in the freezer is already doing it wrong.

One should freeze the product as quickly as possible, so dry ice in a cooler is typically used. Any product to be freeze-dried is placed on a cookie sheet and/or parchment paper, directly on a layer of dry ice. Once it is fully frozen, it is then transferred to the freeze dryer and the process commences.

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OfflineGreg
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: ruawakeyet] * 1
    #28155999 - 01/24/23 06:09 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

The owner of this freeze dryer does pre-freeze some of the things they process. I don't know the specifics but I will of course inquire when the time comes.

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Offline7Suns
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg] * 1
    #28156608 - 01/25/23 07:49 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Greg- if you do the study please post here or link me in the thread,

Yes dry ice method is preferred to flash freeze and will probably help protect the final products

Also I know a lot of people say this is a waste of time but from my view point this is the future, some day they will be legalized and sold on a more commercial scale even if it’s only a few states, as a Bussines owner wouldn’t you want to have a one up by offering a product with superior shelf stability and potentially retains more alkaloids then joe down the street that has some heat dried “quick production” mushrooms, idk I’ve always been an activist for quality

Nonagon- I think you’re misunderstanding, it’s not “more potent” in the sense that you’re adding potency, think of it more like an extraction, when you dry the fruit you reduce its water weight but the psilocybin content should stay relatively close to its original amount so by drying you are actually making them “more potent” per gram, similar to how you would boil off water to make a “more potent” tincture by reducing its volume

If anything this in my opinion is actually closer to the overall mg/g dry weight originally stated in science literature from the 80’s and repeated on Wikipedia

Psilocybe cubensis dry fruit can contain up to 1.3 mg psilocybin per gram of dry material, the freeze dried fruit in that excerpt states 1.04 so this is close to the total milligram per gram described



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My trade list with pics!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27551720

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Offline7Suns
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28156621 - 01/25/23 08:02 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Drunkin lullabies-

I would only do an 1/8 or so just to test it first, please don’t ruin a whole batch because of some random persons theory on the internet lol, but I would be interested in your experience if you do decide to try it I would recommend using dry ice to flash freeze it as mentioned, you can get that from welding supply stores that sell shielding gas if you can’t find it anywhere else, if you’ve never worked with it please read up on it first and always wear gloves and eye protection

Then try the sample

Wait 2 weeks and try a regular batch

Compare notes and report back too us

Granted that’s not real science because there’s no quantitative proof, to many variables, and it’s all speculative, but your opinion and results are still valuable to me


--------------------
. INDOOR WINE CAPS
INDOOR BLEWITS
My trade list with pics!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27551720

Following the lost souls as they transcend the seven dimensions, like wandering shadows in the heat of a mirage

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OfflineB Traven
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28156624 - 01/25/23 08:06 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Did I miss something?

Are heat-dried mushrooms less able to retain the actives present post-drying?

My understanding is that dry is dry. Whats lost is lost, whats present is present.

As a craftsman, I am confident that I'm generating shelf-stable material. It's still everything leading up to the drying that's really going to differentiate one pile of material from another, in my opinion. I'd love to see more data on all of this, but the marketing end of the conversation is really not something that can be freely done in this venue.

To be clear, I'd love to see more data on all of this. I don't think it's pointless. I just can't speculate on where it'll lead in the future without saying things here that I shouldn't.


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Edited by B Traven (01/25/23 08:17 AM)

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: B Traven] * 5
    #28156637 - 01/25/23 08:27 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

just to clarify, i do not think that discussing freeze drying or drying methods in general is a waste of time. i think that a study that doesnt control for variability between fruiting bodies tells us exactly nothing. the authors only tested 1 fruit per method (lol) and it doesnt seem like they went to any trouble to narrow down the genetics beforehand. just look at these results from clampconnected. varied potency is a confounding factor

Quote:










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OfflineKizzle
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings] * 4
    #28156857 - 01/25/23 11:16 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Also I know a lot of people say this is a waste of time but from my view point this is the future, some day they will be legalized and sold on a more commercial scale even if it’s only a few states, as a Bussines owner wouldn’t you want to have a one up by offering a product with superior shelf stability and potentially retains more alkaloids then joe down the street that has some heat dried “quick production” mushrooms, idk I’ve always been an activist for quality



I think if there was a legal commercial industry things like taste, texture, and appearance would be far more important to the perceived quality of the product than some miniscule difference in potency that no one is going to be able to notice. That and cost would be the basis for which drying method to use.


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