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Offline7Suns
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dehydration and potency myths
    #28155553 - 01/24/23 01:27 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

It’s been constantly debated in these forums and other groups but I just recently stumbled across some newer information that supports my theory

The age old debate:

Conventional dehydrators that use heat degrades psilocybin

Vs.

Air drying at room temperature degrades psilocybin because it takes longer and psilocybin quickly degrades after harvesting 



My theory:

heat and time are irrelevant if you eliminate oxygen when dehydrating either by vacuum or inert gas atmosphere (I could be wrong it could be that the quick removal of water alone or together with a vacuum atmosphere are responsible)

New research:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27713906

I also believe I read somewhere that psiK also re-phosphorylates psilocin back into psilocybin as a means of protection

And I might be mistaken but I also thought I read that psiK degrades upon harvesting and possibly heat? Id be interested if anyone has more information on the stability of psiK

I think we can agree freeze dried is far superior compared to the dehydrator or air dried

My question I guess would be can we prove or disprove if it’s the vacuum or lack of oxygen that contributes to the higher retention of psilocybin?

If so can we just use inert gas like argon with desiccants or heat vacuum combination?



STILL BEING EDITED PHONE IS ABOUT TO DIE!!!








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OfflineExcess Taters
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns] * 1
    #28155629 - 01/24/23 02:15 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Alright, so freeze drying is not good, I'm not sure where you got that table, but I think they wrote it wrong.  Freeze drying results in the psilocybin degrading into psilocin, according to my understanding.  Freeze dried has more psilocin, but far less psilocybin.

https://www.mind-media.com/go.php?https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Documents/Stability%20of%20Psilocybin%20and%20Analogs.pdf

If you don't want to deal with a weird pdf link, here's the conclusion.



Quote:

Icyurmt said:
That paper linked to above claims that drying at room temperature in the dark does not cause any loss of active tryptamines. That finding is apparently backed up by two other studies.



So, why go through the trouble of freeze drying and potentially making the mushroom bodies more porous/opening them up to faster degradation? Drying at room temp in the dark already preserves all there is to be preserved. If you want dried mushrooms to hit stronger, it's easy to make lemon tek/acidic tea with them.

Ive never tried them myself but I think the perceived increase in potency folks experience with freeze-dried fruits probably comes from the dephosphorylation of some of the psilocybin into less storage stable psilocin. Higher psilocin ratios would make them feel stronger.





Now, I don't know much about all of this and could certainly be wrong, which is why I'm not replying thoroughly to this.  I do believe some of what you're thinking has been proven though.


--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek

Edited by Excess Taters (01/24/23 02:24 PM)

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Excess Taters] * 4
    #28155661 - 01/24/23 02:27 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

i have yet to see a proper study done on potency and drying methods. the ones that keep getting posted here are wack


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings] * 1
    #28155712 - 01/24/23 02:58 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I honestly just think that any differences in drying methods are several orders of magnitude less than the potency swings we see as a result of genetics and cultivation practices. I mean, unless we're including some janky room temperature air-drying setup that allows the tissue to senesce.

In my mind, you either consume fresh-picked material or you don't. The rest is relatively trivial in the grand scheme of things.

And since heated forced-air is very practical and inexpensive, it just seems like the path of least resistance.


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Offline7Suns
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Excess Taters]
    #28155834 - 01/24/23 04:34 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Excess Taters said:
Alright, so freeze drying is not good, I'm not sure where you got that table, but I think they wrote it wrong.  Freeze drying results in the psilocybin degrading into psilocin, according to my understanding.  Freeze dried has more psilocin, but far less psilocybin.

https://www.mind-media.com/go.php?https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Documents/Stability%20of%20Psilocybin%20and%20Analogs.pdf

If you don't want to deal with a weird pdf link, here's the conclusion.



Quote:

Icyurmt said:
That paper linked to above claims that drying at room temperature in the dark does not cause any loss of active tryptamines. That finding is apparently backed up by two other studies.



So, why go through the trouble of freeze drying and potentially making the mushroom bodies more porous/opening them up to faster degradation? Drying at room temp in the dark already preserves all there is to be preserved. If you want dried mushrooms to hit stronger, it's easy to make lemon tek/acidic tea with them.

Ive never tried them myself but I think the perceived increase in potency folks experience with freeze-dried fruits probably comes from the dephosphorylation of some of the psilocybin into less storage stable psilocin. Higher psilocin ratios would make them feel stronger.





Now, I don't know much about all of this and could certainly be wrong, which is why I'm not replying thoroughly to this.  I do believe some of what you're thinking has been proven though.






I’m not trying to say you are wrong, but I do believe you misinterpreted what you read I looked over that link and pic, it’s saying long term storage of already dried mushrooms in the freezer will cause rapid degradation which is in agreement with the link I shared, freeze drying also knowing as lyophilization is where you freeze the mushroom fresh and then allow it to thaw under a vacuum this creates sublimation which is the process where water skips it’s liquid phase and goes straight from a solid to a gas this in turn prevents degradation or oxydation because the enzymes responsible for degradation need water/oxygen in order to de-phosphorylate psilocybin to psilocin

Also your link also confirmed storage in inert gas is preferred so you actually helped my case


--------------------
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InvisibleTucky
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28155878 - 01/24/23 04:58 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

7Suns said:
Quote:

Excess Taters said:
Alright, so freeze drying is not good, I'm not sure where you got that table, but I think they wrote it wrong.  Freeze drying results in the psilocybin degrading into psilocin, according to my understanding.  Freeze dried has more psilocin, but far less psilocybin.

https://www.mind-media.com/go.php?https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Documents/Stability%20of%20Psilocybin%20and%20Analogs.pdf

If you don't want to deal with a weird pdf link, here's the conclusion.



Quote:

Icyurmt said:
That paper linked to above claims that drying at room temperature in the dark does not cause any loss of active tryptamines. That finding is apparently backed up by two other studies.



So, why go through the trouble of freeze drying and potentially making the mushroom bodies more porous/opening them up to faster degradation? Drying at room temp in the dark already preserves all there is to be preserved. If you want dried mushrooms to hit stronger, it's easy to make lemon tek/acidic tea with them.

Ive never tried them myself but I think the perceived increase in potency folks experience with freeze-dried fruits probably comes from the dephosphorylation of some of the psilocybin into less storage stable psilocin. Higher psilocin ratios would make them feel stronger.





Now, I don't know much about all of this and could certainly be wrong, which is why I'm not replying thoroughly to this.  I do believe some of what you're thinking has been proven though.






I’m not trying to say you are wrong, but I do believe you misinterpreted what you read I looked over that link and pic, it’s saying long term storage of already dried mushrooms in the freezer will cause rapid degradation which is in agreement with the link I shared, freeze drying also knowing as lyophilization is where you freeze the mushroom fresh and then allow it to thaw under a vacuum this creates sublimation which is the process where water skips it’s liquid phase and goes straight from a solid to a gas this in turn prevents degradation or oxydation because the enzymes responsible for degradation need water/oxygen in order to de-phosphorylate psilocybin to psilocin

Also your link also confirmed storage in inert gas is preferred so you actually helped my case




So freeze drying is good? I have a tub of Jack Frost that I was going to harvest tomorrow and put in the freeze dryer but don't want to fuck them up. With other things like strawberries the process is sped up by freezing them first, just leaving them overnight in the freezer and then into the freeze dryer. Should I do that with my mushrooms?

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OfflineExcess Taters
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28155882 - 01/24/23 05:00 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

7Suns said:
I’m not trying to say you are wrong, but I do believe you misinterpreted what you read I looked over that link and pic, it’s saying long term storage of already dried mushrooms in the freezer will cause rapid degradation which is in agreement with the link I shared, freeze drying also knowing as lyophilization is where you freeze the mushroom fresh and then allow it to thaw under a vacuum this creates sublimation which is the process where water skips it’s liquid phase and goes straight from a solid to a gas this in turn prevents degradation or oxydation because the enzymes responsible for degradation need water/oxygen in order to de-phosphorylate psilocybin to psilocin

Also your link also confirmed storage in inert gas is preferred so you actually helped my case




I don't believe I was wrong, if fresh mushrooms and dried mushrooms have the same potency, why would freeze drying result in more potent mushrooms?  How would it increase Psilocybin when we know that freezing degrades psilocybin into psilocin?  The numbers in that image seem flawed.  I tried reverse image searching it, and looking up various studies, but I was unable to find it.  Clearly it's part of some study, and I didn't want to speak definitively because I couldn't find more data to get a better idea on things and really figure this out.

I don't know much about the freeze drying process, but I don't believe the process can increase the potency, if it's true that both fresh and dried mushrooms are similarly potent.  It should only result in a switch from psilocybin to psilocin, but with my shallow knowledge, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if I'm missing some knowledge that makes me wrong.

Lastly, about inert gas, yeah, that's what I meant when I said "I do believe some of what you've suggested has been proven".  I had no intent to try and prove you wrong, I just wanted to bring more data into the discussion so that I could help you figure out what you're getting at here.


--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Excess Taters] * 2
    #28155892 - 01/24/23 05:09 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

once again, arguing about what studies say is a waste of time when the studies are bunk

freeze dry and dehydrate clones. test the potency. that would be the first legit comparison ever done. post it so we can at least waste our time arguing about good science


--------------------
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OfflineExcess Taters
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings]
    #28155910 - 01/24/23 05:23 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

"Don't discuss things, do some work that nobody has apparently ever done in all the years of the shroomery and post the science or do nothing."

Seems a silly stance to me. 

I believe using the best available science, discussing it, and working towards a conclusion is not a worthless or problematic endeavor.  I don't aim to argue or debate, my goal is always to get to the bottom of whatever question is presented.  I don't really care (much) about being right or wrong, I just want to help figure out what is correct, and while buying a freeze dryer, test kits, and doing a ton of work sounds like an amazing way to spend my time and money... I think I'd rather take a different path because the answer to this question holds about $5 of value to me.


--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek

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OfflineLewDoja
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Excess Taters]
    #28155911 - 01/24/23 05:25 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Psilocybin is rapidly metabolized (after ingested) into psilocin, by our body's.

Look into ascorbic acid and how it may help prevent degradation.


You might be on to something...


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  Good drugs tell you, that you've had enough"


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OfflineNonagon
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: LewDoja]
    #28155921 - 01/24/23 05:34 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Maybe someone smarter than me read the table differently. But regardless of the method used - how would any dried product have more actives than the fresh mushrooms in equivalent dried grams? Let alone multiple times the amount


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OfflineGreg
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings] * 4
    #28155922 - 01/24/23 05:34 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bakedbeings said:
once again, arguing about what studies say is a waste of time when the studies are bunk

freeze dry and dehydrate clones. test the potency. that would be the first legit comparison ever done. post it so we can at least waste our time arguing about good science




I just got back to this hobby so I don't have clones anymore but as soon as I can pull a decent one from MS grows I plan to do this comparison.
I have access to both a large Excalibur dehydrator and a Harvest Right freeze dryer.
Stay tuned.

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg] * 2
    #28155989 - 01/24/23 06:04 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Greg said:
I just got back to this hobby so I don't have clones anymore but as soon as I can pull a decent one from MS grows I plan to do this comparison.
I have access to both a large Excalibur dehydrator and a Harvest Right freeze dryer.
Stay tuned.



fuck yeah greg


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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg] * 1
    #28155993 - 01/24/23 06:07 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

One aspect that I haven't seen discussed is flash freezing any item to be freeze dried. I remember reading years ago, in regards to food preservation via freeze drying, that simply placing something in the freezer is already doing it wrong.

One should freeze the product as quickly as possible, so dry ice in a cooler is typically used. Any product to be freeze-dried is placed on a cookie sheet and/or parchment paper, directly on a layer of dry ice. Once it is fully frozen, it is then transferred to the freeze dryer and the process commences.

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OfflineGreg
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: ruawakeyet] * 1
    #28155999 - 01/24/23 06:09 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

The owner of this freeze dryer does pre-freeze some of the things they process. I don't know the specifics but I will of course inquire when the time comes.

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Offline7Suns
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg] * 1
    #28156608 - 01/25/23 07:49 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Greg- if you do the study please post here or link me in the thread,

Yes dry ice method is preferred to flash freeze and will probably help protect the final products

Also I know a lot of people say this is a waste of time but from my view point this is the future, some day they will be legalized and sold on a more commercial scale even if it’s only a few states, as a Bussines owner wouldn’t you want to have a one up by offering a product with superior shelf stability and potentially retains more alkaloids then joe down the street that has some heat dried “quick production” mushrooms, idk I’ve always been an activist for quality

Nonagon- I think you’re misunderstanding, it’s not “more potent” in the sense that you’re adding potency, think of it more like an extraction, when you dry the fruit you reduce its water weight but the psilocybin content should stay relatively close to its original amount so by drying you are actually making them “more potent” per gram, similar to how you would boil off water to make a “more potent” tincture by reducing its volume

If anything this in my opinion is actually closer to the overall mg/g dry weight originally stated in science literature from the 80’s and repeated on Wikipedia

Psilocybe cubensis dry fruit can contain up to 1.3 mg psilocybin per gram of dry material, the freeze dried fruit in that excerpt states 1.04 so this is close to the total milligram per gram described



--------------------
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Offline7Suns
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28156621 - 01/25/23 08:02 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Drunkin lullabies-

I would only do an 1/8 or so just to test it first, please don’t ruin a whole batch because of some random persons theory on the internet lol, but I would be interested in your experience if you do decide to try it I would recommend using dry ice to flash freeze it as mentioned, you can get that from welding supply stores that sell shielding gas if you can’t find it anywhere else, if you’ve never worked with it please read up on it first and always wear gloves and eye protection

Then try the sample

Wait 2 weeks and try a regular batch

Compare notes and report back too us

Granted that’s not real science because there’s no quantitative proof, to many variables, and it’s all speculative, but your opinion and results are still valuable to me


--------------------
. INDOOR WINE CAPS
INDOOR BLEWITS
My trade list with pics!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27551720

Following the lost souls as they transcend the seven dimensions, like wandering shadows in the heat of a mirage

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OfflineB Traven
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28156624 - 01/25/23 08:06 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Did I miss something?

Are heat-dried mushrooms less able to retain the actives present post-drying?

My understanding is that dry is dry. Whats lost is lost, whats present is present.

As a craftsman, I am confident that I'm generating shelf-stable material. It's still everything leading up to the drying that's really going to differentiate one pile of material from another, in my opinion. I'd love to see more data on all of this, but the marketing end of the conversation is really not something that can be freely done in this venue.

To be clear, I'd love to see more data on all of this. I don't think it's pointless. I just can't speculate on where it'll lead in the future without saying things here that I shouldn't.


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Edited by B Traven (01/25/23 08:17 AM)

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: B Traven] * 5
    #28156637 - 01/25/23 08:27 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

just to clarify, i do not think that discussing freeze drying or drying methods in general is a waste of time. i think that a study that doesnt control for variability between fruiting bodies tells us exactly nothing. the authors only tested 1 fruit per method (lol) and it doesnt seem like they went to any trouble to narrow down the genetics beforehand. just look at these results from clampconnected. varied potency is a confounding factor

Quote:










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OfflineKizzle
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings] * 4
    #28156857 - 01/25/23 11:16 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Also I know a lot of people say this is a waste of time but from my view point this is the future, some day they will be legalized and sold on a more commercial scale even if it’s only a few states, as a Bussines owner wouldn’t you want to have a one up by offering a product with superior shelf stability and potentially retains more alkaloids then joe down the street that has some heat dried “quick production” mushrooms, idk I’ve always been an activist for quality



I think if there was a legal commercial industry things like taste, texture, and appearance would be far more important to the perceived quality of the product than some miniscule difference in potency that no one is going to be able to notice. That and cost would be the basis for which drying method to use.


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OfflineGreg
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28156895 - 01/25/23 11:59 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
appearance would be far more important to the perceived quality of the product than some miniscule difference in potency



Hell, bag appeal is still pretty important to me and I give 'em away. :shrug:

Quote:

7Suns said:
Greg- if you do the study please post here or link me in the thread,



Absolutely!
I would love input on my plan for the comparison.

I plan to:
  • Fruit multiple identical mini monos with a cube clone, specifically for this comparison.
  • Weigh and catalog each fruiting body separately, or at least in small groups of similar composition and weight, before and after drying.
  • Cull major outliers like aborts, giants, mutants, etc.
  • Do legitimate statistics on drying efficiency between methods; Levene's test, T-test, etc.
  • Compare drying cycle times and power consumption.
  • Post pics of samples for visual comparison.
  • Do Miraculix potency tests on powdered samples from each method.
  • Do subjective comparisons of potency.
  • Repeat potency tests on samples from each method that have been stored in the same manner for x amount of time.
  • Provide all numerical data in csv or json format.


I would like to do proper HPLC analysis but it is quite far outside of my budget.
Even the Miraculix tests might hurt a little right now. :lol:
If there's enough interest when the time comes maybe crowd funding proper testing would be an option.

Another stretch goal would be performing this on more than one species.

Small disclaimer that there's no guarantee on time frame here, I have my hands full with life at the moment!
This is something I've always been curious about though so I'll try to make it happen within the year.

Edited by Greg (01/25/23 12:06 PM)

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Offline7Suns
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg]
    #28156923 - 01/25/23 12:11 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Kizzle you make a good point, in the future it will probably all be synthesized or extracts, or confectionery treats and candies, I’m still interested in the science though

Or more importantly improving drying methods that offers the least amount of loss

A more practical idea instead of a freeze dryer

I imagine you could use something like an air tight container with desiccants and oxygen scavengers (the stuff in hand warmers are a cheap source) or filled with argon gas
Possibly in the fridge/freezer or ambient temperature


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INDOOR BLEWITS
My trade list with pics!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27551720

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Offline7Suns
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28156936 - 01/25/23 12:18 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Greg that sounds like a solid plan, I would be willing to pitch in any way possible

Believe me my life is chaotic AF I get it lol between running 2 small businesses, having kids, and on the rare occasions hobbies, nothing seems to get the full attention it truly deserves


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns] * 2
    #28156996 - 01/25/23 12:58 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

since the amounts needed for miraculix testing are so small, it might even be practical to pick large fruits, discard the caps, and split the stems in half for comparison. this would further remove variation as a confounding factor and you could get by with a smaller sample size (less kits)

in fact...stands to reason that you wouldnt need to wait around for steady genetics. if youre comparing fruits to themselves you could just go ahead with an MS grow...right?


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings]
    #28157005 - 01/25/23 01:07 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

That's a good idea for the potency test kit part!

I have an MS Argentina mini mono going right now but it looks kinda shitty to me so I don't have high hopes for it (cold indoor temps and suspect looking spawn).
Will have MS Ghost tubs going at some point, but I have a tamp grow planned first.

Edited by Greg (01/25/23 01:10 PM)

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg]
    #28157118 - 01/25/23 02:21 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Wondering if it would be worth picking up a colorimeter to take the subjectivity out of Miraculix tests. They're a couple hundred bucks but they make it possible to put real numbers to color based reagent tests.

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg] * 1
    #28157128 - 01/25/23 02:30 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

my understanding is that the company has an app that does the reading for you


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings]
    #28157130 - 01/25/23 02:31 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Oh nice that makes it easy!

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg]
    #28160535 - 01/27/23 09:24 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I’m actually very happy with how this thread is turning out and want to say thank you to both Greg and bakedbeings for having good insight valuable input and a level perspective, I kind of half heartedly expected this to devolve into nothing more then “who cares just eat more” comments that you always see floating around

I really want to see this come full circle and I’m curious, this is the first time I’m hearing about the miraculix test, I’m sure a google search is in order, but we’re can I acquire this testing kit, I have plenty of other theories I can expand on using this tech if it’s cheap enough


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28160541 - 01/27/23 09:31 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)



--------------------
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Excess Taters] * 3
    #28160581 - 01/27/23 10:20 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

this again.  the highest i have ever been was either on angel dust (maybe overdose at near-lethal toxicity) or mushrooms around 18g where i experienced synesthesia and to this day im not sure if i was telepathic or not.

one is so fucking rare you're not likely to encounter it in your lifetime and if you do, you might not be able
to afford it, and good luck syntheisizing it yourself.

the other is so abundant as to be utterly without worth in terms
of monetary gain that dealers dont even care about it.  it can be grown on fucking ramen noodles and horse shit.
I remember a friend of mine asked me he says "isnt there money in growing shrooms" to which i replied
"fuck no for most normal people an ounce is a lifetime supply"

and yet we keep coming back to this discussion.  shit just last week some dude was geekin out about making mushrooms MORE potent using indole-3 buteric acid and i asked "why" and he was unable to provide an answer that satisfied even his own morbid curiosity. 

with all due respect the bottom line is who gives a shit? a *pinch*--no matter how it was dried--is enough to turn you into a babbling utensil.  two pinches and youre slithering around the house in only a t-shirt, so whats with all the bickering about the potency? 

i too have never seen a real analysis, and the reason is that no scientist worth their salt is going to waste energy on such senseless drivel:  one pinch of nothing isnt enough? try two! two isnt enough, try tamps!

like why isnt anyone working on less potent shrooms? wheres the research for that? i for one wouldn't mind having some variety that wouldnt turn your intestines out at under a gram, ya know?

i dunno.  im a bit drunk and im on the same rant again but if youre seriously one of these people trying to experience ego death at around $100, id look into pcp.  for around 2 grams youll go to the factory floor of yourself where theres nothing but the gears and cogs of pure sensation.  Universes and eternities in a grain of salt.  i mean *or* gather up your minerals and take some serious dosage of shrooms.  remember when mudafucka was eating QP's in a day?  fuck me that was some minerals you just dont see these days.

Anyway.  I dont  know where i was going.  Just put the fuckin things in a dehydrator.  good night i love you all.


Edited by BeefSupremeJr (01/27/23 10:40 PM)

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #28160674 - 01/28/23 12:11 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

With most varieties low potency strains are not uncommon. I think the compulsion to get more potent mushrooms stems from that. I spent a lot of time looking for ways to increase potency mainly because I was tired of being disappointed. Eventually I realized all I really wanted was consistency in my seemingly inexhaustable supply.


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Kizzle]
    #28160711 - 01/28/23 01:57 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
Eventually I realized all I really wanted was consistency in my seemingly inexhaustible supply.






^ This. Consistency over some miniscule increase in potency any day.


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #28160714 - 01/28/23 01:59 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BeefSupremeJr said:
Anyway.  I dont  know where i was going. 





Maybe not but it was still a good rant. Thank you.


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28160720 - 01/28/23 02:12 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Dehydrators are the gold standard. People have been using them forever with zero issues, I don't know why people insist on debating it still given how many years people have been using dehydrators for, and the quality of the end product produced by a dehydrator. If you're that concerned about potency, you should just isolate a more potent strain, or just eat more.

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: nooneman] * 1
    #28161053 - 01/28/23 09:31 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

there should be a sobriety test (for me) to login to shroomery.  sorry to everyone i was a bit of a mess last night.  science is always cool.  have a great day.

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: BeefSupremeJr] * 1
    #28161165 - 01/28/23 11:01 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

No worries man.
You're right that freeze drying and other methods are a bit silly when dehydrators are cheap and proven to work.

I'm doing it for the novelty since I have access to a Harvest Right at no cost to me.
If I can provide some high quality info along the way for just a little bit more effort I figure why not.
Hopefully it will help settle a long standing question.

After all is said and done I'm sure I'll keep using my 9 tray dehydrator.

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #28161168 - 01/28/23 11:03 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

well to keep the debate alive i have some critiques of the OP. i might be way off, im not a chemist, but i might as well say my piece

Quote:

I also believe I read somewhere that psiK also re-phosphorylates psilocin back into psilocybin as a means of protection
but does dry psilocin need protection? the mushroom lives in a reality without drying technology, promptly removing the moisture might make its own defenses irrelevant

And I might be mistaken but I also thought I read that psiK degrades upon harvesting and possibly heat? Id be interested if anyone has more information on the stability of psiK
enzymes will denature if exposed to certain temps for certain times, but before they hit that threshold the heat is accelerating the reaction. drying at 160 means the fruits start at room temp and gradually climb to 160. i cant say whether the gradient of temperatures they hit over the course of 24 hours kills psiK before it completes its mission or pushes it past the finish line even faster. maybe an analysis of the psilocin and psilocybin content in fresh fruits vs dried fruits would tell us. personally i dont think it matters

I think we can agree freeze dried is far superior compared to the dehydrator or air dried why?

My question I guess would be can we prove or disprove if it’s the vacuum or lack of oxygen that contributes to the higher retention of psilocybin? If so can we just use inert gas like argon with desiccants or heat vacuum combination?
this is the point im most confused about. do you think not letting oxygen touch the outside of the fruit would prevent actives from degrading on the inside? so we should just vacuum seal fresh fruits and be done with it?




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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: bakedbeings] * 1
    #28161175 - 01/28/23 11:13 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I can see freeze dryers being superior in two and only two ways:
You can bet your ass that shit is going to be cracker dry.
I would bet money that a higher % of volatiles are extracted in a freeze dryer vs a dehydrator having seen the results both methods achieve with different foods.

Shape and appearance after drying are much nicer with freeze drying as it is in some ways a gentler process.

Having said that, my bet is potency after drying is identical between the two methods.
I don't see some crazy chemical process occurring in one vs the other that somehow makes an appreciable difference when people store dried mushrooms at room temp and nearly atmospheric conditions (aside from some added desiccant) for years without major changes in potency.

Edited by Greg (01/28/23 11:13 AM)

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg] * 4
    #28363628 - 06/17/23 06:57 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

This is not nearly as thorough as I wanted, but I thought I'd post this result as a sort of follow up to my previous comments anyway.
I still plan to do something more rigorous in the future, but between being broke as hell, searching for work, and moving, this is the best I can do.

This is a Miraculix test of freeze-dried and powdered Ps. tampanensis.
If freeze drying did in fact reduce the potency, I don't think I'd really care considering value measured:

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg] * 1
    #28363873 - 06/17/23 10:51 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Thank you for the update!


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Yuggoth]
    #28363959 - 06/18/23 02:37 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Lots of factors we don't know of course but very surprised no one has mentioned the likelihood of PsiL denaturing when exposed to dehydrator temps (160f). seems that denaturing the enzymes responsible for the cascade reaction would lock in potency to a degree


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𝕴𝖋 𝕴 𝖍𝖆𝖛𝖊 𝖘𝖊𝖊𝖓 𝖋𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖎𝖘 𝖇𝖞 𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖚𝖕𝖔𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖘𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖑𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝕲𝖎𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖘

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tri] * 1
    #28364225 - 06/18/23 10:31 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

It has been established that in long term storage high temps or freezing temps result in faster degradation of Psilocybin then room temp. Also, oxygen exposure has been found to result in faster degradation of Psilocybin. Additionally light has been found to result in faster degradation of Psilocybin.
That being said it seams like drying at room temperature, in a dark vacuum would retain the most potency. For storage it seams like and opaque, vacuum sealed package, kept at room temprature would be best.

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Longtimenosee] * 3
    #28364311 - 06/18/23 12:06 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I store my vac sealed fruits in a freezer and they retain potency just fine.  Had year old fruits not long ago that were just as potent as when I sealed em

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: fahtster]
    #28364769 - 06/18/23 09:03 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Here is my primary reference for my statements on preservation of tryptamine's-

Stability of psilocybin and its four analogs in the biomass of the psychotropic mushroom Psilocybe cubensis
Klára Gotvaldová, Kateřina Hájková, Jan Borovička, Radek Jurok, Petra Cihlářová, Martin Kuchař
First published: 29 October 2020




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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Longtimenosee]
    #28364833 - 06/18/23 10:50 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

that temp chart in addition to the likelihood of denaturing the enzymes really solidifies the dehydrator against all debate imo


--------------------
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28373454 - 06/24/23 10:02 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Re: Bag Appeal

Wattage of the dehydrator may play a role here.

The Nesco owner's manual states to dry mushroom by pre-drying them at 95°F for 2–3 hours before raising temp to 125°F for 4–10 hours or until dry. This is for looks and preserving the shape of the mushroom

When I was using an old 500w Nesco, it dried my shrooms fine on 160°F. The caps were decently golden colored. This was also an old dehydrator I had used on and off for years and it may or may not have been as powerful as when new.

However, when I upgraded to the 700w square tray Nesco (FD-80), 160°F seemed to brown my caps quite a bit but if I kept heat at 145°F, they were ok and more golden. Sometimes I started them off at 125°F and then went up to 145°F

Now I have the 1000w Nesco "Gardenmaster" Pro (FD-1010) with the fan on the bottom. This is the most powerful one, highest capacity (30 trays) and certainly has the most powerful fan and air flow design, even compared to their 1000w digital model with fan at the top (only 20 trays).  Someone on the forums reported it (FD-1010) had warped their 2 bottom trays at 130°F on for 22 hours in 2013 and blamed it on the mushrooms having already been long dry by then, speculating it wouldn't have happened if the trays were full of wet shrooms.

(edit: update)  The FD-1010 is at least twice as loud at the lesser Nesco dehydrators but has amazing airflow.  I don't fear warping or burning at all, it actually seems to dry better on 160°F than my lesser watt units with less browning and better bag appeal.  If noise is an issue and you want the timer, then go for the digital 1000w (FD-1040) with fan on the top, though the fan isn't as powerful as the FD-1010

While unrelated to dehydrators, I will state that my most discerning people do not want broken veils. They insist on unopened caps purely for bag appeal. I've been left holding the bag before because I picked everything after veil break and had to unload at a discount to a chocolate bar man who didn't care about bag appeal as he was going to powder them anyway.

Re: Potency

Regarding Penis Envy or other very fat "choad" varieties: it is important to keep drying even after they *seem* to be cracker dry. You can turn the heat way down low if leaving it over night or keep it on high and just give it a few more hours if you're awake and watching it.

Some have reported that when they switched to fat varieties such as PE, they went stale faster even with jar storage and desiccant bags. It's better to give them a little bit of extra time to be absolutely sure they are 100% dry as even 95% dry (for example) may be enough moisture to speed up oxidation without you even realizing it. They may feel cracker dry but if you're unsure, just keep them in the dryer for a few more hours on medium or high, or another 12 hours on low or medium, depending on size and thickness of the mushrooms as well as the wattage of your dehydrator

One APE grower on another forum says he always dries for 48 hours on 160°F to make certain they are 100% dry with no noticeable potency loss. He did not state the specific dehydrator he used and so this may be fine for a 500w dehydrator but perhaps not OK for a 1000w dehydrator as trays may warp and other possible dangers

Edited by Anon888 (07/02/23 09:50 AM)

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Anon888]
    #28373553 - 06/25/23 12:29 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

so, in terms of degradation, is moisture the main cause, or oxygen? Would silica work for long term storage or should food grade oxygen absorbers be considered? 

in contrast to people who like the taste of mushrooms, I am not a huge fan. furthermore as someone who has issues consuming large amounts, its something i'd like to avoid - spending your trip on the toilet is less desirable. I think isolating for potency and aiming to retain as much of that potency is a worthy cause.

also, beef - you're awesome


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Longtimenosee] * 1
    #28373578 - 06/25/23 01:18 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Longtimenosee said:
Here is my primary reference for my statements on preservation of tryptamine's-

Stability of psilocybin and its four analogs in the biomass of the psychotropic mushroom Psilocybe cubensis
Klára Gotvaldová, Kateřina Hájková, Jan Borovička, Radek Jurok, Petra Cihlářová, Martin Kuchař
First published: 29 October 2020









I can't exactly remember what they did in their trials but I read it twice when it got published. Only read it twice because I thought their study was flawed and not really conclusive. So I read it again and was still disappointed with their work. I actually think the statements they make are pretty much useless or let's say not any better than anecdotal reports.

Edited by Baba Yaga (06/25/23 01:26 AM)

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Pickle Rick] * 2
    #28373722 - 06/25/23 06:11 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pickle Rick said:
so, in terms of degradation, is moisture the main cause, or oxygen? Would silica work for long term storage or should food grade oxygen absorbers be considered? 

in contrast to people who like the taste of mushrooms, I am not a huge fan. furthermore as someone who has issues consuming large amounts, its something i'd like to avoid - spending your trip on the toilet is less desirable. I think isolating for potency and aiming to retain as much of that potency is a worthy cause.

also, beef - you're awesome




The oxidation reactions that degrades potency require both oxygen and moisture. Keeping them as dry as possible will mitigate the effects of any residual oxygen. Most oxygen absorbers need some moisture to work, so if you store dry fruit in an airtight jar the oxygen absorbers may never really do anything.

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: RoscoeReturns]
    #28373770 - 06/25/23 07:16 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

This threadmade me smile, I had people (mods) flat out say dehydrators were never really a point of contention or have been a thing of dialog in the community and mostly people wanting to blame their weak batches on dehydrators. I know how I feel about them, and that is I dont...I don't care how you wanna dry your shrooms and will not push anybody in any direction. But its my personal belief that "rapid drying" not heat itself per se, but the rapidness at which you draw out moisture may have an effect. I prefer a 2 step fan and desiccant chamber setup to a more convenient and straight forward dehydrator. I wont risk my harvest in one. It works great for some people and their product, I had some weird results along time back using them. Its been a long point of contention though thats for damn sure. Do what works for you.


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Edited by Grungeman17 (06/25/23 07:17 AM)

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Grungeman17] * 1
    #28374311 - 06/25/23 04:24 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Heat will degrade psilocybin but not at dehydrator temps
Making tea is an approved method of consumption and boiling gets it to 212 degrees F.  No dehydrators get that hot so clearly they aren't causing potency loss

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #28375049 - 06/26/23 09:51 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

You clearly didnt read at all what I stated. I don't believe "heat" is the culprit. Its the rapid drying action the dehydrators force. It works relatively fast. I think the purging may effect somethings, sometimes... I dont think its getting to hot. People are possibly focused on the wrong dynamics. Dehydrators work for some people. I feel that they messed with some of my older batches. And choose to stay away. I know that if I produce bunk shrooms that its not a dehydrators fault. Thats the hill ill die on. Im sure theres 50 members thats used them fine. And there is...but theres been s9me weirdo instances aswell. My opinion is it has to do with "fast drying" not heat itself.


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Grungeman17]
    #28375065 - 06/26/23 10:23 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

My bad. Yeah I missed that part
Everybody’s gotta do what works best for them

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns] * 2
    #28375151 - 06/26/23 11:43 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

As someone who lives in OR, where lab  testing is available for alkaloids what I can state unequivocally is that either ‘every individual mushroom is different’  or the ‘the equipment the labs use are inaccurate’. We’ve had every scenario lab tested and results are all over.  Spore grown, LC, live tissue clone, some dehydrator dried, some air dried, some fresh, all different growing mediums. Even had fruits tested that were taken from clone grown in same tray literally millimeters apart and some tested totally differently in alkaloid content. Those are all thjngs I  KNOW!!!

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OfflineTri
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx]
    #28375153 - 06/26/23 11:45 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jacbpdx said:
As someone who lives in OR, where lab  testing is available for alkaloids what I can state unequivocally is that either ‘every individual mushroom is different’  or the ‘the equipment the labs use are inaccurate’. We’ve had every scenario lab tested and results are all over.  Spore grown, LC, live tissue clone, some dehydrator dried, some air dried, some fresh, all different growing mediums. Even had fruits tested that were taken from clone grown in same tray literally millimeters apart and some tested totally differently in alkaloid content. Those are all thjngs I  KNOW!!!




But have you done so with an isolated strain? Like from 2 spores


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𝕴𝖋 𝕴 𝖍𝖆𝖛𝖊 𝖘𝖊𝖊𝖓 𝖋𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖎𝖘 𝖇𝖞 𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖚𝖕𝖔𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖘𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖑𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝕲𝖎𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖘

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tri]
    #28375163 - 06/26/23 11:50 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

We’ve done it from clone which should theoretically give almost exact same results. 2 different spores can give you a multitude of different results and would serve ineffective

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx]
    #28375176 - 06/26/23 12:01 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

As far as I understand, and may a TC correct me of I'm wrong, but clone cultures are much more genetically diverse than a single strain.

Clones can still have the genetic information of thousands of different spores and strains that fused in the myc whereas a single strain from 2 parent spores will not, and will behave much more consistent


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𝕴𝖋 𝕴 𝖍𝖆𝖛𝖊 𝖘𝖊𝖊𝖓 𝖋𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖎𝖘 𝖇𝖞 𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖚𝖕𝖔𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖘𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖑𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝕲𝖎𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖘

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tri]
    #28375185 - 06/26/23 12:06 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Yes…you are incorrect on that. But now you won’t be moving forward.

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx]
    #28375188 - 06/26/23 12:09 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jacbpdx said:
Yes…you are incorrect on that. But now you won’t be moving forward.




Incorrect about which part?

That 2 parent spores will create a strain with less genetic diversity than a clone culture?

And now I won't be moving forward? What are you on about?


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𝕴𝖋 𝕴 𝖍𝖆𝖛𝖊 𝖘𝖊𝖊𝖓 𝖋𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖎𝖘 𝖇𝖞 𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖚𝖕𝖔𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖘𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖑𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝕲𝖎𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖘

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tri]
    #28375197 - 06/26/23 12:14 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Taking a live tissue aka pure  culture will result in genetically identical characteristics. And ‘moving forward’, meaning now you know and won’t have to say “I may be incorrect”

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx]
    #28375198 - 06/26/23 12:15 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

And do ya know how ridiculously small individual spores are? It would be virtually impossible to isolate two individual spores without some serious equipment and microscopes

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx]
    #28375232 - 06/26/23 12:41 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jacbpdx said:
Taking a live tissue aka pure  culture will result in genetically identical characteristics.





Quote:

jacbpdx said:
And do ya know how ridiculously small individual spores are? It would be virtually impossible to isolate two individual spores without some serious equipment and microscopes





:facepalm:

Edit:
Quote:

Stipe-n Cap said:
Quote:

Chamo said:
Sorry bud, I actually linked sources. The only sources here that anyone has is from their friends. If you think the only way to produce an isolate is mono-mono…I don’t know what to say





Again, this is not what I said. I said an isolate is not achieved via scalpel, loop, or biopsy. Isolates are achieved via serial dilution/microscopy, or dedikaryotization. I defined an isolate as a single dikaryotic strain, or a monosporic isolate, which is basically how you have been describing it when referring to the stability witnessed after multiple transfers.


A strain is a genetic variant or subtype of a microorganism. Secondary mycelium contains many individual subtype strains growing in close proximity but never intertwining. The hyphae can sense each other, they maintain some degree of minute separation measured in nanometers. The density of this growth, the scale of structure and separation makes macroscopic manipulation of individual strains impossible to separate or isolate. Rhizomorphs and "sectors" are corporate structures packed with a miriad of individual strains/subtypes, all of them microscopic.

The only way to separate neohaplont parents from the tangle of microscopic structures is by chemical dedikaryotization, or by production of protoplast in the lab; or by starting from monosporic isolates aided by microscopy and micromanipulators.


Like this:

https://www.singerinstruments.com/solution/sporeplay/

The information I've provided is not linked, it's read in books, manuals, and textbook on the topic of mycology and microbiology. If you want further verification, I suggest reading.






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𝕴𝖋 𝕴 𝖍𝖆𝖛𝖊 𝖘𝖊𝖊𝖓 𝖋𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖎𝖘 𝖇𝖞 𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖚𝖕𝖔𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖘𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖑𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝕲𝖎𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖘

Edited by Tri (06/26/23 12:47 PM)

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tri]
    #28375242 - 06/26/23 12:49 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

So let me get this straight. You say “correct me if I’m wrong”. A user who’s been on this board for 20 years and has an Oregon Producers license, corrects you and you now are claiming that YOURE correct?? Oh how I’ve missed, or haven’t really, this forum. Good luck and at very least try and stop spreading misinformation if you don’t know. There’s nothing wrong with saying it. It shows character

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx] * 1
    #28375301 - 06/26/23 01:25 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I asked for a Trusted Cultivator to correct me if I am wrong, no offense but how long ago you registered or started growing does not equate to expertise or technical knowledge.

Especially when what you're saying seems to directly contradict the information the TCs are presenting.

I included that quote from Stipe (a TC) from just days ago because he seems to specifically talk about how you can not obtain a genetically isolated strain from tissue culture, which seemed to be exactly the opposite of what you are stating.

It seems like a very simple concept, so if im wrong tell me why I'm wrong rather than try to swing your dick around with "20 years" or a license.

2 parent spores, isolated through serial dilution, streaking, etc. will create a single genetic strain.

Tissue cloning from MS, or even a clone of a clone of a clone of MS, will still have many strains within it, especially considering concepts like bullers phenomenon

Here's another quote from Stipe
Quote:

Stipe-n Cap said:
Quote:

Chamo said:
Just back to the original question and then I really will stop.

Do you have any links outside of this website that support the claim that a strain is solely defined by monokaryotic mating?




It's not the only way to produce a fruiting strain, you've missed the point. 2 monos make a dikaryotic strain. Laboratory wizardry with protoplasts can produce a strain, dedikaryotization can produce a strain, etc. I'm sure there's a multitude of advanced interventions into protoplasm/nuclei to produce any number of interesting outcomes.

Your original statement that isolates can be produced by scalpel transfers was what started this conversation. I stated that an isolate is a strain, a strain in isolation produced by two compatible monokaryons, dedikaryotization, or bullers. Strains are not isolated via plate transfers; sectoring or the lack therefore isn't a sufficient condition to indicate individual strain isolation, etc.

I hope that clears things up because this is all the time I have left to dedicate to this :lol:

Time to go relax.




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𝕴𝖋 𝕴 𝖍𝖆𝖛𝖊 𝖘𝖊𝖊𝖓 𝖋𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖎𝖘 𝖇𝖞 𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖚𝖕𝖔𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖘𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖑𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝕲𝖎𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖘

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tri]
    #28375332 - 06/26/23 01:51 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I guess having a masters in mycology from OSU doesn’t qualify as a trusted cultivator, would degree in microbiology for Texas a&m or degree in biology from U of Hawaii qualify? Those are what other colleagues I employ have. I tried to learn ya something and you went all over the place. Good luck learning anything with that mindset.

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx]
    #28375345 - 06/26/23 01:58 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I ask for explanation, you give dick swinging.

If you are able to explain, please do, otherwise :shrug:

Presenting alleged accolades is not "trying to learn me something", its you saying "because I said so"

All I'm saying is a genetic isolate (derived from two parent spores) would likely be a much more consistent test subject to expiriment with the effects of different methods on potency, rather than using a clone culture that holds the genetic information of a variety of strains.


So if that statement seems incorrect to you, why?

I love to learn, and am more than happy to be wrong.


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𝕴𝖋 𝕴 𝖍𝖆𝖛𝖊 𝖘𝖊𝖊𝖓 𝖋𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖎𝖘 𝖇𝖞 𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖚𝖕𝖔𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖘𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖑𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝕲𝖎𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖘

Edited by Tri (06/26/23 02:00 PM)

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Offlinejacbpdx
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tri]
    #28375587 - 06/26/23 05:10 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Start here. This does a decent job of explaining in not too technical terms and saves me a lot of typing.

https://midnightmushroomco.com/blogs/myco-blog/fungi-reproduction-how-a-mushroom-is-born

Cloning from pure culture can only yield the exact same fruit from which it came…there is no chance of any variations and you won’t find any linkable literature stating “clones contain info of various strains”.

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tri]
    #28375590 - 06/26/23 05:13 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

You could also research on how ‘cloning’ works across all biology. That will help answer your question as well. A clone is an EXACT genetic replica…hence the word ‘clone’.

Noun: Biology-
an organism or cell, or group of organisms or cells, produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical

There’s no debate

Edited by jacbpdx (06/26/23 05:15 PM)

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tri]
    #28375623 - 06/26/23 05:41 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

And continually quoting/copy and pasting another member who themselves admitted has no link for the info they’re stating is absurd. I’ll put my degrees “because I said so” up against anyone’s non degrees “because I said so”, any day. This is all info you can find yourself online. Then ya won’t have to wonder who’s correct..hint:it’s me!!!

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx] * 1
    #28375658 - 06/26/23 06:11 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

6a - Substrate inoculated with a single colony will colonize quickly and contain the same genetics throughout, it will be totally clonal. The fruits produced by this colony will all be the same genetically, cloning from any one of them will yield the same exact isolate, identical to the one in step 4.




Doesn't this contradict your experience with testing clones though? You said they all had different alkaloid concentrations

I appreciate the link, and I do understand in a basic sense how the reproduction cycle works.

Its the wether or not dikaryotic hyphae remain fairly entwined within multi spore mycelium cultures and their fruiting bodies thats got me confused.

I do remember a thread where someone took like over 100 transfers and still had variation, ill try to find it.

What you are positing seems to be in direct contradiction of what the TC's of this forum state repeatedly and clearly, so I'm very much at odds. Sorry for being abrasive but its only because I welcome being corrected/being wrong, but stating so without evidence helps no one and is annoying and makes me cranky. I love productive conversation and debate though, and I love learning about mycology

Also I quote the TC's because that's the whole precedent of this site, is that the Trusted Cultivators can be taken at their word due to their long and continuous demonstration of competence on the subject, and have years worth of evidence to back it up. Please understand anyone (and many have) can claim to have a degree, so excuse me if that wasn't the instantaneous trump card you thought it would be.

-- edit:
Quote:

jacbpdx said:
Cloning from pure culture can only yield the exact same fruit from which it came…there is no chance of any variations and you won’t find any linkable literature stating “clones contain info of various strains”.




this is 10000% confirmation bias on my part but I can't resist (I am a dumbass, and can decipher ~1/3 of this jargon, I figure you are more educated than I so either you will find it interesting and challenging to your perspective or it isn't applicable at all and I'm reaching for the stars, either way, was an interesting little research session)

"Cloning a mushroom fruiting body from multi-spore genetics may not yield a genetic isolate equal to a single dikaryotic strain. Reference Chenli et al. (2017) describes the establishment of uracil auxotrophic dikaryotic strains of Lentinula edodes through crossbreeding and subsequent screening. The study found that single-spore isolates derived from the dikaryotic strain exhibited different genetic patterns, including mixed patterns, indicating genetic variability within the isolates. This suggests that the genetic composition of a single fruiting body derived from multi-spore genetics may not be equivalent to that of a single dikaryotic strain."

"Based on the provided references, it is evident that a tissue sample from a mushroom fruiting body can contain multiple sets of genetic information, indicating genetic mosaicism and somatic genetic recombination during haploidization (Hsieh et al., 2017). The presence of haploid dikaryotic cells and genetic variability within single-spore isolates derived from fruiting bodies suggests that the tissue sample may not be a genetic isolate similar to a single dikaryotic strain (Hsieh et al., 2017). Additionally, studies have shown intragenic recombination among Termitomyces isolates and the formation of persistent diploid monokaryons through matings between compatible haploid monokaryons (Hsieh et al., 2017). These findings support the idea that a tissue sample from a mushroom fruiting body can contain multiple sets of genetic information, rather than being a genetic isolate similar to a single dikaryotic strain."

"To obtain a genetic isolate culture through tissue cloning of a mushroom fruiting body, the following steps can be followed:

1. Prepare the tissue sample: Take a tissue sample from the desired mushroom fruiting body. This can be done by cutting small pieces of the fruiting body.

2. DNA isolation: Use a suitable DNA isolation protocol to extract DNA from the tissue sample. This can involve homogenization and extraction techniques specific to the mushroom species Dwivedi et al. (2018)Marhaver et al., (2008).

3. Cloning and culture: Once the DNA is isolated, it can be used for cloning and culture. This can involve techniques such as polymerase chain reaction (PCR) amplification of specific genetic regions or the construction of cDNA libraries (Joh et al., 2007; López-Gartner et al., 2015). The isolated DNA can be used to generate a genetic library or clone specific genes of interest.

4. Selection and isolation: Select and isolate individual clones or colonies from the cloned culture. This can be done by streaking or plating the cloned culture onto suitable growth media and selecting individual colonies for further analysis (Joh et al., 2007; Chowdhury & Heinemann, 2006).

5. Verification and characterization: Verify the genetic identity and purity of the isolated clones. This can involve techniques such as DNA sequencing, genetic markers, or gene expression analysis (Joh et al., 2007; Kang et al., 2013). Characterize the isolated clones by studying their genetic and biochemical properties (Joh et al., 2007; Fokunang et al., 2022).

By following these steps, it is possible to obtain a genetic isolate culture from a tissue sample of a mushroom fruiting body. This allows for the study and manipulation of specific genetic traits or genes of interest.

Without DNA isolation, it would not be possible to obtain a genetic isolate culture through tissue cloning of a mushroom fruiting body. DNA isolation is a crucial step in obtaining the genetic material necessary for cloning and culture. It allows for the extraction and purification of DNA, which can then be used for various molecular biology techniques such as PCR amplification, gene cloning, and sequencing. These techniques rely on the availability of DNA as a template for analysis and manipulation. Therefore, DNA isolation is an essential step in obtaining a genetic isolate culture from a tissue sample of a mushroom fruiting body."


Edited by Tri (06/26/23 06:43 PM)

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tri] * 1
    #28375680 - 06/26/23 06:41 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Tri, I would like to clarify my position here without controversy, because this conversation was referring to something deeper.

In this conversation you quoted the debate was between what the definition of an isolated strain is, and if it is practical to obtain an isolated strain through agar transfers. It gets deeper into di-mon mating and whether or not that is considered an isolate as well, and if it is possible to obtain it with a scalpel.

I would like to say that I agree with you here, and this was never the issue within that conversation. An individual fruiting body can produce a multitude of different genetic strains and variants. Taking a clone will not produce identical subsequent grows.

Where stipe and I might disagree is that you could take the clone, and isolate the sectors down to individual cultures. He would say it is not a pure isolate. But it would still give more consistent grows than simply taking a clone.

But even isolating the Sectoring in a clone would not necessarily reproduce the same characteristics of the fruiting body it came from.

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx]
    #28375684 - 06/26/23 06:46 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jacbpdx said:
You could also research on how ‘cloning’ works across all biology. That will help answer your question as well. A clone is an EXACT genetic replica…hence the word ‘clone’.

Noun: Biology-
an organism or cell, or group of organisms or cells, produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical

There’s no debate





Sir, are you saying that in a clone like this, that there is only one set of genes at play?


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Chamo] * 1
    #28375689 - 06/26/23 06:50 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Yeah I hear you, my only position in this thread is literally "A single dikaryotic strain will be a more consistent test subject than a culture obtained from cloning an MS fruiting body" I didn't know there was such disagreement about whether or not fruiting bodies can hold genetic information from multiple strains.

and I totally get your point on "If its isolated down to a point where there's no distinguishable difference in characteristics/phenotypes, why not call it an isolate" for all intents and purposes of a home mycologist I reckon it might as well be, I do think it comes down to splitting hairs and semantics

--

Quote:

Chamo said:
Quote:

jacbpdx said:
You could also research on how ‘cloning’ works across all biology. That will help answer your question as well. A clone is an EXACT genetic replica…hence the word ‘clone’.

Noun: Biology-
an organism or cell, or group of organisms or cells, produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical

There’s no debate





Sir, are you saying that in a clone like this, that there is only one set of genes at play?







:whathesaid: legitimate question


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𝕴𝖋 𝕴 𝖍𝖆𝖛𝖊 𝖘𝖊𝖊𝖓 𝖋𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖎𝖘 𝖇𝖞 𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖚𝖕𝖔𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖘𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖑𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝕲𝖎𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖘

Edited by Tri (06/26/23 07:07 PM)

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OfflineChamo
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx] * 2
    #28376366 - 06/27/23 10:20 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jacbpdx said:
We’ve done it from clone which should theoretically give almost exact same results. 2 different spores can give you a multitude of different results and would serve ineffective




You have that backwards.

Quote:

jacbpdx said:
Taking a live tissue aka pure  culture will result in genetically identical characteristics. And ‘moving forward’, meaning now you know and won’t have to say “I may be incorrect”




Genetically identical characteristics to what? The parent mycelium, yes. The fruit body? Not necessarily.

Quote:

jacbpdx said:
You could also research on how ‘cloning’ works across all biology. That will help answer your question as well. A clone is an EXACT genetic replica…hence the word ‘clone’.

Noun: Biology-
an organism or cell, or group of organisms or cells, produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical

There’s no debate




The mushrooms we are studying do not have the same life cycle as other organisms in biology. The dikaryotic stage makes this more complicated. It’s not the same as cloning a plant, whose genetics were already formed by fusing from parents. As a biologist you should know how diverse the tree of life is. That’s why we use taxonomy.


Quote:

jacbpdx said:
Start here. This does a decent job of explaining in not too technical terms and saves me a lot of typing.

https://midnightmushroomco.com/blogs/myco-blog/fungi-reproduction-how-a-mushroom-is-born

Cloning from pure culture can only yield the exact same fruit from which it came…there is no chance of any variations and you won’t find any linkable literature stating “clones contain info of various strains”.




From your link:

“The dikaryons are incompatible and stay separate from one another, unlike monokaryons they will not fuse or exchange genetics. Now that their goal is fruiting, it is a territory dispute, rather than a fuckfest. They radiate away from the original group of monokaryons.”

—Dikaryons can still exchange genetics, just not with other dikaryons. Dikaryotic mycelium is able to exchange genetic information with compatible monokaryons. It creates competition between the two nuclei for which one will remain with the nucleus from the monokaryot. It is not fully understood how the selection process is made, only that there is a cost benefit.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/75917.pdf


“5 - Each of these dikaryons will grow and dominate territory until enough resources have been accumulated that it decides to fruit (ignoring the many environmental factors involved). The mycelium of the dikaryotic colony goes through a series of changes, and through the process of primordial initiation. The mycelium making up the mushroom is identical in every way to the mycelium it came from, it is all the same purple dikaryotic cells.Even if there are multiple dikaryons overlaid and directly involved with one another, their genetics stay separate, and fruitbody formation is performed only by a single colony without involvement from any other. At this point in time we are far from the point where genetics are flexible.”

-I think the main point here is “The mycelium making up the mushroom is identical in every way to the mycelium it came from”.
Mycelium. Not mushroom. If I were to take a sector of mycelium from my photo above, and transfer it to agar it would look identical to the original mycelium (and probably not even). But it would not produce an identical fruiting body…Based on the photo I provided there are obviously many distinct strains of mycelium that make up the fruiting body. And they are not a homogenous colony. They clearly separate and sector.

So my question for you would be: if, according to you, any cloned tissue from the fruiting body would produce an identical clone, why do those strains from my clone clearly separate?

““Even if there are multiple dikaryons overlaid and directly involved with one another, their genetics stay separate, and fruitbody formation is performed only by a single colony without involvement from any other.”

-So then how do you know which mycelium to clone? You seem to be contradicting yourself by saying that many dikaryotic strains can exist in a fruit body, but only one of them is genetically responsible. So which one would you know to clone?

You are saying that only one dikaryotic strain is responsible for the mushroom but also saying many strains can exist within the fruiting body, while simultaneously saying that any tissue sample will produce a genetically identical sample. So how do you know where to take your clone specifically? That sounds like a big contradiction.

“The main takeaway is that while yes, there are technically two strains comprising a dikaryon, two strains inside a fruitbody, they ceased to exist as individuals in step 3 on the first image. From that moment on there is only a single cell type in the mycelium, and the fruitbody is only made of that mycelium. Thus, cloning a mushroom from any source, any place or origin, will yield only a single dikaryotic strain per mushroom.”

-Again, nuclei do not cease to be individuals until meiosis. The dikaryotic part of the lifecycle of mushrooms is the unique thing about them. Even after mon-mon mating, there is still competition within the cell between the two nuclei. When di-mon mating is initiated there is still competition on the individual level between nuclei.

And again, it seems like a contradiction.
“From that moment on there is only a single cell type in the mycelium, and the fruitbody is only made of that mycelium.”

But also says:

“Even if there are multiple dikaryons overlaid and directly involved with one another, their genetics stay separate, and fruitbody formation is performed only by a single colony without involvement from any other. “


So if there are multiple dikaryotic strains overlayed on the fruit body, and they don’t have anything to do with the genetics, then how do you know which part to clone?


I hope that you can clarify your position without waving your accolades around. Truth is truth.



Another example of Sectoring from an entire fruit body clone:



Edited by Chamo (06/27/23 10:43 AM)

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Offlinejacbpdx
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Chamo]
    #28376716 - 06/27/23 03:56 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Trying to find better ways to explain what I’m trying to say. There’s a reason some people are ‘teachers’ and some are ‘students’ and I don’t  say that condescendingly. I’m saying that i myself am not able to explain/convey certain knowledge i possess. Let me know if this helps whereas you seem to be hung up on ‘dikaryotic’ cells/spores

http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/2011/bielmeie_luke/Reproduction.htm

Dikaryotic spores/cells reproduce sexually where’s clones reproduce asexually

I could be misunderstanding you as well so i own that

Edited by jacbpdx (06/27/23 04:01 PM)

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Offlinejacbpdx
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Chamo]
    #28376726 - 06/27/23 04:09 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Also, the ‘cloning’ I refer to is of a fruit body not mycelium. And I don’t ‘wave my accolades around’ but if you want to take the words of so-called trusted cultivators over people with degrees/hands on knowledge, that’s on you. Come to one of Stamet seminars when they start again and see first hand what he has to say about a few “experts” on this site that I won’t name.

And im not implying a degree means I know more than everyone. The aforementioned Paul Stamets is pretty much all self taught/learned and to those that know, his is the paragon of all things mushrooms.

Edited by jacbpdx (06/27/23 04:15 PM)

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OfflineChamo
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx] * 2
    #28376744 - 06/27/23 04:33 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jacbpdx said: Cloning from pure culture can only yield the exact same fruit from which it came…there is no chance of any variations and you won’t find any linkable literature stating “clones contain info of various strains”.




Your own linked information states otherwise, which leads me to believe you are misunderstanding a lot.

Quote:

jacbpdx said: Dikaryotic spores/cells reproduce sexually where’s clones reproduce asexually




Dikaryotic spores do not exist. Clones are comprised of various dikaryotic strains of mycelium as your linked article explains. Dikaryotic mycelium has the potential to reproduce sexually, given the right conditions/circumstances. Your article even states the need to separate sectors before fruiting. But you are claiming that a clone will reproduce something identical. How can that be the case if multiple strains are present?

as evidence i showed you two pictures. They are taken from clones. They show clear separation of non-compatible mating types, indicating multiple strains present within one fruiting body. The dikaryotic strains perform differently in conjunction (or competition as the article claims) than when they are on their own.

so, you are claiming that taking a tissue sample from anywhere on a fruiting body will produce a clone identical to that which you took it from.

if you are taking a clone from my petri dish, how would you do it? Where would you take the transfer? there are multiple different sets of genetics in one fruiting body.


Quote:

jacbpdx said:
Also, the ‘cloning’ I refer to is of a fruit body not mycelium.




:foreheadslap:

what do you think the fruit body is made of?

The problem is you are assuming people dont understand things. And you are making claims that are demonstrably false. You accused Tri of blindly following TCs but you want him to blindly follow you because you have a bachelors degree and you dont understand that cloning mushrooms is not the same as "all of biology" as you say?

lets just keep it to the discussion and not make it personal and try to create hierarchies. The things you are saying are simplistic and you are accusing others of not being able to understand them. The colorful drawings give a good basic understanding. And i agree with like 90% of what you are saying.

But you are misreading your own links. There are multiple strains present in a clone. All Tri was saying is that if you begin with an isolate, that the fruiting body would not have these differing strains within them.

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Offlinejacbpdx
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Chamo]
    #28376921 - 06/27/23 06:45 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

The fact that you aren’t cognizant that fruiting bodies contain different gene expressions than the mycelium mass is concerning for this discussion. Taking live tissue culture from fruit bodies will unquestionably give you more of a true genetic clone than mycelium matter. This is kinda what I mean about having more experience/knowledge than some. Certain genes from mycelium aren’t even activated/expressed at that stage. And once again an Isolate produces sexually…it needs another to reproduce…clones do not.  And apologies if previous texts came off as condescending or arrogant. True confidence is being able to change one’s mind

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OfflineChamo
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx] * 2
    #28376925 - 06/27/23 06:50 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

A mushroom is composed of different strains of dikaryotic mycelium. I gave you multiple examples. What you are saying is very simplistic and it doesn’t follow any truth.

A single fruiting body can contain various genetic strains. Throw that on agar and you can see it for yourself. Grow every sector out and see if it resembles the cloned mushroom.

None of what you are saying makes sense so it’s hard to even reply to you.

Again you talk down, and you don’t know that a mushroom is made up of mycelium and that there is no such thing as a dikaryotic spore.

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OfflineChamo
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Chamo]
    #28376928 - 06/27/23 06:52 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Chamo said:
Quote:

jacbpdx said:
You could also research on how ‘cloning’ works across all biology. That will help answer your question as well. A clone is an EXACT genetic replica…hence the word ‘clone’.

Noun: Biology-
an organism or cell, or group of organisms or cells, produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical

There’s no debate





Sir, are you saying that in a clone like this, that there is only one set of genes at play?







Please answer this original question

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OfflineChamo
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx] * 1
    #28376931 - 06/27/23 06:56 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jacbpdx said: True confidence is being able to change one’s mind




yes you do sound condescending. But not in a “you are so smart” kind of way. Condescending in the way that you are saying things demonstrably untrue and giving simplistic explanations with colored pictures, flaunting a degree…all while contradicting yourself in your own arguments and making factually incorrect statements

You should take your own advice.

Tri was originally trying to bring up an interesting topic and you just starting talking down to him.

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OfflineKizzle
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Grungeman17]
    #28377048 - 06/27/23 08:14 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Grungeman17 said:
This threadmade me smile, I had people (mods) flat out say dehydrators were never really a point of contention or have been a thing of dialog in the community and mostly people wanting to blame their weak batches on dehydrators. I know how I feel about them, and that is I dont...I don't care how you wanna dry your shrooms and will not push anybody in any direction. But its my personal belief that "rapid drying" not heat itself per se, but the rapidness at which you draw out moisture may have an effect. I prefer a 2 step fan and desiccant chamber setup to a more convenient and straight forward dehydrator. I wont risk my harvest in one. It works great for some people and their product, I had some weird results along time back using them. Its been a long point of contention though thats for damn sure. Do what works for you.



The problem with dessiccants is they don't work well at low humidities so there's a limit how dry they can get the mushrooms. All they can really do is lower the humidity to the point they stop working, 30-40% RH. That may be good enough but if you want absolute dryness you get that with heat.


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Kizzle]
    #28377088 - 06/27/23 08:39 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
The problem with dessiccants is they don't work well at low humidities so there's a limit how dry they can get the mushrooms. All they can really do is lower the humidity to the point they stop working, 30-40% RH. That may be good enough but if you want absolute dryness you get that with heat.



:whathesaid: 

Dehydrators are really the best way to go.

Crank it up on the highest temp and run it until the largest fruit is cracker dry.

The faster you can dry the fruits, a higher potency retention is likely.

Load the dry fruits into mason jars and drop a couple of desiccant packs in for storage.

I find this method to be the best outside of vacuum sealing.


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Before you start...Do you have a Pressure Cooker and a Dehydrator? I highly recommend getting both!

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tormato]
    #28377101 - 06/27/23 08:57 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

It's nice to see a couple TC's weighing in being productive
This thread has been the most boring pissing match for a while now

Like Tormato said, dehydrator, mason jar, desiccant packs, and I like to add 2-3 oxygen absorber packs as well

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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #28377398 - 06/28/23 06:50 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

TEAM fan, paper lunch sacks and damprid all the way. Try taking the shrooms and sticking them in lunch sacks inside the actuall damprid container itself with the lid back on. You'll have to change th bags out like 2 or 3 times because thats where your moisture ends up. By the end of 5 days they are dryer than your ex girl friend. Im not sure about this "only so dry" stuff with damp rid, the shit litteral sucks the moisture out of my skin. And I absolutely believe that rapid drying is NOT what is needed fo potency retention. I belive its a slow and steady drying process aimed for within a week to wrap up its exposure to air, that I have had the most stable results.


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Grungeman17] * 1
    #28377454 - 06/28/23 07:59 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Moisture allows for degradation.  Get it dry quicker and those processes stop sooner

I seriously think you likely had some weak batches when you used a dehydrator and are confusing correlation with causation

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Offline7Suns
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx] * 2
    #28377550 - 06/28/23 09:11 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Jacbpdx

Have you seen the advancements made with ascomycota mating like cordyceps mating types and strain development? They are using serial dilution and microscopically mating single spores to yield new strains for consistent characteristics and genetics

Also I do have to point out that you keep stating a clone reproduces asexually but that’s hilarious and truly flawed logic….. a clone of a fruit body is the product of a mating pair lmao, so in essence when you clone fruit bodies all you’re doing is spreading that same mating pair , a fruit body would not have its own singular DNA sequence like that of a haploid spore the fruit body is a spore barring structure comprised of multiple compatible mycelial DNA sequences so when you take a tissue sample from a fruit body you are essentially only re-propagating the parent mycelium instead of a new singular genetic code

Asexual would refer to it being cloned from a monokaryon and able to bare spores without needing any additional dna from a compatible mating type so therefore the mycelium propagated from that clone is actually heterothallic and if I remember correctly almost all  agaricomycetes are dikaryotic and monokaryon are sterile and unable to reproduce

This for me at least, this discredits your claims to being an accredited mycologists or microbiologist, this should be common knowledge for someone of that stature and you have demonstrated otherwise


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #28377556 - 06/28/23 09:16 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Lol "moisture allows for degradation" prolnged moisture past harvest allows for other organisms to thrive and decompose your "food" mushrooms are 90 peecwnt moisture lol and I guess they're inherently degrative why they are growing?, i'm almost certain that prolonged air exposure followed by UV are the most degradative processes. My veiw is that rapid drying in certain circumstances can have a purging effect. I dont believe rapid drying is where its at. Slow and steady most of the time wins the race. Are they exposed to "air" a little longer YES. But its clear alot of people have had differing results, are there people that prolly blamed some bad batches on dehydrators sure.. but ive had a string of disappointments that majestically stopped when I switched up my drying process. So it really is just gonna be up to the individual. But I dont believe every last occurrence is "weak shrooms" from the rip... theres a factor at play we don't fully understand likely.


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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: TheStallionMang] * 1
    #28377576 - 06/28/23 09:38 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:
Moisture allows for degradation.  Get it dry quicker and those processes stop sooner

I seriously think you likely had some weak batches when you used a dehydrator and are confusing correlation with causation





I’m intrigued according to this logic why lyophilization wouldn’t be a faster method of stopping the degradation if it’s a time/oxygen/water Catalytic effect

Lyophilization:

Pros

-Flash freezes (very short time)

-removes oxygen because it’s under a vacuum

Desiccates fruit bodies without heat/light/oxygen

Cons

-cell walls rupture during freezing

Ancedotal evidence:

Blueing reaction has been proven to be a direct response to the degradation of psilocin/psilocybin

Freeze dried fruits show no signs of blueing reaction from the lyophilization process itself


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