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OfflineKickleM
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How many tools * 2
    #28155278 - 01/24/23 10:09 AM (1 year, 4 days ago)

Humans can be seen as great tool users. It's one of those things that sets us apart from other life on Earth. Not just tool usage, which some other animals share, but also the degree of tool usage. We use tools for anything and everything.

Maybe it's because of this that I get a bit confused on where the line of tool usage actually is drawn. Are my hands tools? Is my mind a tool?

Is a tool defined by invention? And after a certain amount of time it's no longer a tool? Like a patent expiring? Or is a tool defined by it's utility? If it no longer has a use it is no longer a tool?

Or is a tool looking at what exists with an understanding of interaction? 

I kind of like the last definition. And I sometimes think about all the interactions that exist. And I sometimes think all of them can be seen as tools. Thoughts?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: How many tools [Re: Kickle]
    #28155361 - 01/24/23 11:29 AM (1 year, 4 days ago)

I thought of animals using tools and they are considered specifically something different from their bodies; their associated intellect in doing so is given. Tools are also ways or methods of using thought, in my use of the term, like counting. If counting mentally is a tool then it extends possibly to all thought.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: How many tools [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28155414 - 01/24/23 12:13 PM (1 year, 4 days ago)

Yeah it's hard because it seems so intertwined to me. The anatomy and the tool usage. Like an otter is described as the only sea mammal that uses tools. But it's also the only sea mammal that has hands to grab hold of things with.

If an otter had webbing or fins, would it still use tools? How?

So it gets a bit strange for me to remove anatomy from the discussion completely.

It's also strange to me that we don't think of whale calls as tool usage. Or anything that enables coordination as a tool if it's origin is anatomical. Communication =/= a tool unless it's put into something external like a book? Storytelling is out as a tool then? Mnemonic devices? All these clever ways to communicate effectively over time and distance are not tool use until it's written down?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: How many tools [Re: Kickle]
    #28155470 - 01/24/23 12:49 PM (1 year, 4 days ago)

I was considering more generally than counting, that symbols are tools as well are methods. All language is composed of symbols, and therefore is all thought in language and imagery. To go back to Hoffmanism, our interactive existence consists of making and using tools in interfaces for survival and comfort.

It renews for me the realization that mind in thought is always trying to do something, like the horse pulling the chariot, often, to say the least, uncontrolled.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: How many tools [Re: syncro]
    #28155483 - 01/24/23 12:56 PM (1 year, 4 days ago)

Yeah. Mental movements are tool usage imo as well. And I also agree with the conception of unconscious 'drives' which, since they aren't conscious, feel uncontrolled. But the tool is simply being used unconsciously.

IME only of course.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How many tools [Re: Kickle]
    #28155516 - 01/24/23 01:09 PM (1 year, 4 days ago)

basically we play and discover what does what, and while playing find what does it better. The best things that we find or assemble or carve or think of become tools, and our play turns into labor as toys become tools.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: How many tools [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28155534 - 01/24/23 01:18 PM (1 year, 3 days ago)

Yeah sometimes things get heavy


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How many tools [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28155546 - 01/24/23 01:24 PM (1 year, 3 days ago)

DL keeps it light


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: How many tools [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28155576 - 01/24/23 01:45 PM (1 year, 3 days ago)



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OfflineKickleM
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Re: How many tools [Re: Pinkerton]
    #28155596 - 01/24/23 01:57 PM (1 year, 3 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
DL keeps it light




5 hours of meditation each morning starting at 3am  :bow2:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: How many tools [Re: Kickle]
    #28155647 - 01/24/23 02:21 PM (1 year, 3 days ago)

And then what will happen?

Quote:

Kickle said:
:bow2:



I am not convinced.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: How many tools [Re: Pinkerton]
    #28155664 - 01/24/23 02:28 PM (1 year, 3 days ago)

He refers to it in English as mind training. Nothing particular happens except training the mind.

I'm glad you are not convinced :heart:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How many tools [Re: Kickle]
    #28155698 - 01/24/23 02:50 PM (1 year, 3 days ago)

meditation is not a tool
it's more of a place where it is quiet and you are relaxed, aware and awake.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: How many tools [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28155716 - 01/24/23 03:00 PM (1 year, 3 days ago)

I'll let the dalai lama know he's describing his meditation wrong next time I see him :lol:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How many tools [Re: Kickle]
    #28155751 - 01/24/23 03:27 PM (1 year, 3 days ago)

well it's not like he has to fix the toilet each day using his wrenchitation


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: How many tools [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28155762 - 01/24/23 03:35 PM (1 year, 3 days ago)

I like that he called it mind training :smile:

It has funny connotations to me

Come along mind, let's go over here now. Oh? You need to stop and pee on that bush? Ok. But then we continue on.

:lol:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: How many tools [Re: Kickle]
    #28158146 - 01/26/23 10:45 AM (1 year, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:

Humans can be seen as great tool users. It's one of those things that sets us apart from other life on Earth. Not just tool usage, which some other animals share, but also the degree of tool usage. We use tools for anything and everything.

Maybe it's because of this that I get a bit confused on where the line of tool usage actually is drawn. Are my hands tools? Is my mind a tool?




Might physical and behavioral strategies be considered a tool?  If a tool is a handheld device that aids in accomplishing a task, is a behavioral (or structural) strategy a method (a tool) used in an attempt to accomplish a goal? 

For example, many deceptive strategies have evolved in both the plant and animal kingdom. These strategizes can be defined as the sending out of false signals in an attempt to modify the behavior of other life forms.  Often in regard to survival (camouflage and mimicry) and obtaining access to resources and to mates.

"Mates" meaning reproductive mates - not finding new chaps at the pub 

I jest


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How many tools [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28158182 - 01/26/23 11:14 AM (1 year, 2 days ago)

an evolved strategy is not a tool it is a form and or a feature of a life form.
a conceived artifactual creation or use of a form is a tool.

there has to be artifice in the matter or it is not a tool, just an expression of life's form.

for example mating strategies are not tools, but a chimp using a stick to get termites is using a tool, and a bird using a rock to break clam shells is using one too.

among humans, however, deceptive mating behaviours for instance are tools - they have nothing overtly to do with natural selection (this can be argued but it would take thousands of years to clarify).


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: How many tools [Re: Kickle]
    #28158183 - 01/26/23 11:15 AM (1 year, 2 days ago)

An interesting question. I would define a tool as an external thing, an external object, created by Humans or even animals. I get confused when the word "tool" is used in Psychology for example, memory mnemonics are a "tool" or "device" used by the mind to remember information. I think thats more of a technique, a mental process, not a "tool".

I dont think tools "expire", however they do go mostly unused such as rock knapping. Im sure theres a few cultures out there that still use rock knapping thou.

A tool is an external object for a specific physical process. And hands are a physical structure that interacts/creates tools.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How many tools [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #28158237 - 01/26/23 11:52 AM (1 year, 2 days ago)

i would add that I agree with that in case not obvious in my text


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