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OfflineAtb06
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Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks * 1
    #28141714 - 01/15/23 06:21 PM (1 year, 12 days ago)

Hello Shroomery community,

Im very new at cultivating, this will actually be my first ever cultivation and was hoping someone would be kind enough to provide me with specific instructions on the easiest and most effective way to cultivate Jack Frost shrooms. I will be using a 10ml syringe and rye grain. Im not sure on the correct quantities of rye to purchase and ml's to use for the amount of rye.

Im willing to pay someone in bitcoin or paypal if you decide to take the time to write down the specific instructions for Jack Frost cultivation.


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InvisibleLucifer944
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Atb06] * 3
    #28141741 - 01/15/23 06:31 PM (1 year, 12 days ago)

Don't put spores to grain. PF Tek is easiest and cheapest way.

Go here: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24420178


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Invisiblebuddzy
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Atb06] * 2
    #28141751 - 01/15/23 06:33 PM (1 year, 12 days ago)

Start on agar one drop can be used to streak quite a few plates then isolate clean growth then you can go to grain
Start reading all the info you need is free here.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24144021


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OfflineAtb06
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Lucifer944]
    #28141764 - 01/15/23 06:39 PM (1 year, 12 days ago)

Ok thanks for the reply. What Ive read is that jack frost does best on rye apparently according to https://tripsitter.com/magic-mushrooms/strains/jack-frost/. I appreciate your reply!

https://files.shroomery.org/files/23-002/383305378-Screenshot_2023-01-15_213620.png][/url]


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InvisibleLucifer944
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Atb06] * 1
    #28141775 - 01/15/23 06:45 PM (1 year, 12 days ago)

Grains in general are recommended if you have a pressure cooker/canner but regardless you don't want to put spores directly on grain.

If it is your first grow, PF Tek is recommended because it is easy, cheap, and less prone to problems. You can grow Jack Frost on PF Tek cakes.


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InvisibleSeeker604
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Atb06] * 1
    #28152893 - 01/22/23 09:25 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

If this is your first time growing at all, I would tell you to avoid doing agar work. Wait until you have 2-3 grows from syringe under your belt - it will save you time and money (also, unless you're growing commercially, you don't need to have tons of plates going all the time).

Preliminary questions:
1. How many bags of sterilized grain do you have?
2. Where do you plan on doing the spawn run in your home?
3. Have you read any teks on Shroomery yet to familiarize yourself with the lifecycle of a mushroom?
4. How many finished grams are you hoping to achieve (dry or wet)?

Preliminary considerations:
1. Trust experienced growers here - the admins/mods in the Cultivation sub forum are very knowledgeable and will help you stay away from bad or dubious information.

2. KEEP IT SIMPLE. Newbies go through a period of granular learning and excitement and tend to overdo it from the jump, and in the end spend way too much money on resources, versus just getting their hands dirty and getting a few grows under their belt.

3. I strongly suggest you follow Bodhisattva's (Bod's) example and teks. To grow cubes, you truly just need your inoculated spawn (the grains) and your substrate (you only need coco coir for cubes - some varieties do better with CVG, but worry about that later). Since Jack Frost is a hybrid of True Albino Teacher and Albino Penis Envy and grows more like a GT phenotype, you will be fine with just using coco coir.

4. I strongly suggest you do a monotub or shoebox grow for your first experience - they're low maintenance, easier to observe the growth cycle, and also easier to harvest from and cleanup afterwards.

5. If you want to draw out the syringe (your spores in the solution will remain viable up to six months as long as you keep them in the fridge), you can divide half of the syringe across however many bags of grain spawn you'll be making.

6. Keep your initial spawn to substrate ratio at 1:1, and then use just pure coco coir to put a thin casing layer of ⅛ to ¼ inch on top of the substrate once you're ready to go.

Finally, I also will be doing a Jack Frost run; I'm waiting on my grains and spores to arrive (both later this month). I'll be more than happy to share with you privately how my grow is going versus yours. You don't have to pay me for my time.

For now, I'm sure you're excited (we all started from the same place you are starting) - I was when I first learned how to grow and preserve these sacred teachers - but don't drown yourself in too much knowledge at this stage. I'd suggest using traditional shoebox totes or up to 32qt monotubs for your first few goes (it'll help you to learn about contams if you encounter them, and if you do a few shoeboxes versus one large tub, you'll be able to salvage the healthy tubs and only have to toss a contaminated one - again, if that happens at all).

Here is Bod's unmodified monotub tek: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22337800

If you'd feel more comfortable using shoeboxes, here's Bod's tek: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25274461

Here's is Bod's substrate tek: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24077162

Welcome to the culture club - there is nothing more rewarding than taking your first trip from your own cubes that you nurtured and cared for. :smile:

Peace & Light,

Seeker604


Edited by Seeker604 (01/22/23 09:45 PM)


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OfflineGreg
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Seeker604] * 2
    #28152909 - 01/22/23 09:35 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

I appreciate that you're trying to help but you've got some bad advice mixed into good advice here Seeker.
I don't have the energy right now to split hairs and dive into exactly why what you've posted is wrong.
The gist of it is you should never recommend spores to grain, it's a crapshoot at best.
At worst it results in failed grows and damage-control threads here in mushcult.


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InvisibleSeeker604
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Greg] * 1
    #28152930 - 01/22/23 09:51 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Greg said:
I appreciate that you're trying to help but you've got some bad advice mixed into good advice here Seeker.
I don't have the energy right now to split hairs and dive into exactly why what you've posted is wrong.
The gist of it is you should never recommend spores to grain, it's a crapshoot at best.
At worst it results in failed grows and damage-control threads here in mushcult.




Well since you're not in the mood to provide scientific evidence to support your opinion, I can tell you after 30 years, I've never had an issue with using grains from either a syringe or from agar; I've never had a bag or jar get contaminated using either technique.

I trust Bod's experience and my own. My signature pics speak to my experience using the same teks I suggested above.

Peace & Light,

Seeker604


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OfflineGreg
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Seeker604] * 3
    #28152931 - 01/22/23 09:51 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

I can confidently say Bod would not recommend shooting spores into grain.


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OfflineGreg
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Greg] * 2
    #28152933 - 01/22/23 09:53 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

Like fucking hell it's literally in the top row of his "where to start" flowchart:



Edited by Greg (01/22/23 09:54 PM)


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OfflineJW123
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Greg] * 2
    #28152942 - 01/22/23 10:01 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

True, but it does say not recommended.


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InvisibleSeeker604
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Greg] * 1
    #28152943 - 01/22/23 10:02 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Greg said:
Like fucking hell it's literally in the top row of his "where to start" flowchart:






You're only providing more arguments about why you're right and I'm wrong. You haven't shared any science behind the opinion. If you'd take the time to educate, I'll take the time to listen. With the volume of growers here who, like me, have no issues using grain at all, I'm willing to bet your opinion is a minority/outlier. I'm willing to concede this opinion if you provide actual evidence.

Again, I've never had any problem with grains - for MS or clones off agar.

Peace & Light,

Seeker604


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OfflineGreg
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Seeker604] * 3
    #28152969 - 01/22/23 10:22 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

You made the assertion that agar is unnecessary, the burden of proof is on you.
No, pictures of a single good grow are not proof.

You name dropped Bod.
I cited him saying the opposite in a post literally pinned to the top of this board.

It's really simple:
Lots of opportunistic microorganisms will eagerly grow on sterile grains.
Psilocybe cubensis is outcompeted or at the very least slowed by competition when grown in sterile grain.
Spores aren't harvested in a sterile environment, lots of undesirable microorganisms can get mixed in with them.
Therefore, shooting spores into sterile grain can potentially introduce both cubensis and competitors simultaneously, resulting in shitty grows.

There is no serious literature on this subject regarding cubensis specifically because it is not a commercially important species, but management of disease and maintenance of axenic conditions are critical to mushroom cultivation worldwide.


Edited by Greg (01/22/23 10:31 PM)


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Invisiblecooleko
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Seeker604] * 2
    #28152972 - 01/22/23 10:22 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

Seeker, work with me. Where are mushrooms grown? What do we call the medium around them? What else permeates that medium? What happens when spores are dropped to foil? Does any of that permeating stuff get stuck to spores on the foil?

Aka, mushrooms grow in open air saturated with contamination. Inherently ensuring that spores arent 100% clean and prone to being mixed with contamination. Going spores to grain carries that higher risk of contamination. Sure mushrooms will grow but you have a high chance at contamination which will reduce performance or kill the grow all together.

Show us the science that says spores to grain is fail proof and a guaranteed success or stop demanding 'science' from us for our viewpoints because that is laughably hypocritical. Read the front page of posts and you will see failure after failure from spores to grains.


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InvisibleSeeker604
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Greg] * 1
    #28152995 - 01/22/23 10:33 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Greg said:
You made the assertion that agar is unnecessary, the burden of proof is on you.




And in my opinion for someone doing their very first grow, I still stand by this opinion.

Quote:

No, pictures of a single good grow are not proof.


Fair point. But considering I know my growth success rate over these last few decades, I stand behind my opinion.

Quote:

I cited him saying the opposite in a post literally pinned to the top of this board.




He doesn't recommend, doesn't say it won't work.

It's really simple:
Quote:

Spores aren't harvested in a sterile environment, lots of undesirable microorganisms can get mixed in with them.



I agree with this if the person making the syringe isn't working in a proper lab - that's why working with professional vendors over hippies in their basements does matter.

Quote:

Therefore, shooting spores into sterile grain can potentially introduce both cubensis and competitors simultaneously, resulting in shitty grows.




Correct...it CAN. There are other possibilities that could prevent spores from mating and growing mycelium too, but those are just possibilities, not certainties. (You can't tell me after 30 years I've just been lucky with every jar/bag I've ever used?)

And I will admit up front I told the kid to consider agar after a few grows - I agree it's the only way that you know 100% if your culture is clean before going to spawn. I use grain for spawn all the time for my gourmet spawns, and I've never had any issue of contams overtaking cubensis spores in either premade bags from vendors or jars I PCed at home. The only time I ever had contams show up was using PF Tek when I first started, and that's because I started growing before Shroomery even existed. It's because of this board that I was able to learn how to improve my techniques and methods. I never used a SAB or flowhood when I first started in 99 - and even then I would only lose about 1-2 jars out of 20 to contaminates. Since using either an SAB (and now my hood) I've never had any issues with grains.

Peace & Light,

Seeker604


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InvisibleSeeker604
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: cooleko]
    #28153001 - 01/22/23 10:41 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

Quote:

cooleko said:
Seeker, work with me. Where are mushrooms grown? What do we call the medium around them? What else permeates that medium? What happens when spores are dropped to foil? Does any of that permeating stuff get stuck to spores on the foil?

Aka, mushrooms grow in open air saturated with contamination. Inherently ensuring that spores arent 100% clean and prone to being mixed with contamination. Going spores to grain carries that higher risk of contamination. Sure mushrooms will grow but you have a high chance at contamination which will reduce performance or kill the grow all together.

Show us the science that says spores to grain is fail proof and a guaranteed success or stop demanding 'science' from us for our viewpoints because that is laughably hypocritical. Read the front page of posts and you will see failure after failure from spores to grains.




I understand the points you are making. If you're using a well established variety with excellent contam resistance, in my experience you don't get any problems with the grain method. I'm not negating the fact that other organisms can get into a syringe - but I've never had a syringe from either a trusted vendor or a syringe I made myself, ever cause problems on grain.

To argue to stop demanding clinical evidence of a process is being hypocritical. I'm not a professional mycologist but would gladly ask one to offer both sides of this debate in clinical terms. I know how to keep things sterile and sanitized. I work with clean methods. I work with Bod's techniques since 2018. I've never lost a single jar or bag of grain. I've always used syringes to start an initial MS grow, and I clone from that population to agar when I want to keep a strain alive. I only grow for my own use; I'm not a dealer and I don't even share my mush with friends. I stand by my opinion based on my experience. PF tek can still get contaminated with BRF...that's the only time in my history of growing that I had issues with molds overtaking mycelium (and once on agar when I used a cheap-ass hood).

Peace & Light,

Seeker604


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Invisiblecooleko
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Seeker604] * 1
    #28153006 - 01/22/23 10:47 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

I echo your sentiment. Most of the syringes I have bought were 100% clean. In 30 or so syringes, I've only seen contam a few times (3-4).

We just get so many posts on almost a daily basis about contaminated grows that started spores to grain that the hive mind hates it.


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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: cooleko] * 1
    #28153010 - 01/22/23 10:51 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

Quote:

cooleko said:
I echo your sentiment. Most of the syringes I have bought were 100% clean. In 30 or so syringes, I've only seen contam a few times (3-4).

We just get so many posts on almost a daily basis about contaminated grows that started spores to grain that the hive mind hates it.




I understand. The scope of my advice was to help the person avoid as much of the problems as possible. Once cubensis is finally legal (let's hope it's soon), we won't even have to worry about spore syringes at all - we can just use cultures like we do for gourmets.  :smile:

Again, I'm more than happy to acknowledge my own limitations of knowledge, but I have a very good record of working with cubensis directly to grain from both syringe and agar...but of course if I had to choose, I'd always prefer the agar work when I can afford the time and money.

My apologies if I sounded defensive in any of my responses this evening...been dealing with stuff for work that's been distracting me.  :smile:

Peace & Light,

Seeker604


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OfflineGreg
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: cooleko] * 3
    #28153015 - 01/22/23 10:55 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

Most of mine have been reasonably clean but I've had a few that needed help or were straight mold/bacteria.
Point is that by working with agar you're removing a confounding factor which can really hinder cultivation otherwise.
All it takes is one errant bacterium or mold spore in the wrong place to ruin a grow.
Shitty grows can be super confusing to new growers if they think they've done everything right because someone told them it's a good idea to shoot spores into grains.


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OfflineExcess Taters
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Re: Jack Frost Cultivation Instructions / Tips & Tricks [Re: Atb06] * 5
    #28153038 - 01/22/23 11:25 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

The main issue is that in these forums, every single day, someone does spores to grain and loses a tub.  That might be slightly figurative, but it's damn close to the truth.  So it's less about "Does this work for me" and more about "What happens when people do what I'm suggesting".  Usually, they end up on these boards wondering what went wrong and one of us has to deliver the bad news.

Spores to grain costs people bags everyday.  It doesn't mean it doesn't work, or can't be done with higher success rates.  It just means when you give it out as advice to people, very often it doesn't work out for them and it becomes something we have to inform them of a few weeks later.

I'm not popping in to argue, just to inform.  We could debate the percentage of success, but everyday we deal with this.


--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek


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