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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
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Let's lower taxes. 1
#28143152 - 01/16/23 03:47 PM (1 year, 11 days ago) |
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I feel like this is a reasonable proposal we can all get behind. Let's lower taxes. Especially income tax, but hey, I'm easy, could be any tax.
Now I know some of you would like to lower taxes to zero, and maybe there's some good arguments for that, but every little bit helps right? If we can all get behind just lowering taxes, that'll benefit everyone. Do you like the amount of income tax you're paying now, or would you like to pay less?
You might ask "how will we pay for it?" Easy: eliminate the DEA. Problem solved. 
I feel like we can all get behind lowering taxes a bit. What do you think?
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: nooneman]
#28143171 - 01/16/23 04:00 PM (1 year, 11 days ago) |
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Well, I think your average American should pay income tax....close to 40% pay no income tax. Even if it's a nominal amount, we are all in this thing together.
All for getting rid of the "loopholes", but if it's legal, the word really is misleading. The tax code does need a cleaning.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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PatrickKn


Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,560
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If taxation is inevitable, an income tax with a progressive increase based on amount of income is the most preferable type of taxation for most people. Sales tax, social security tax, sin and excise taxes are all regressive in nature and disproportionately effect low income earners more than high earners and the wealthy.
In the United States in particular, we create all kinds of tax breaks and deductions that are difficult to navigate for people they were intended for, whereas in other countries these things tend to be automatic. This is by design, there is a lot of money in a complicated tax system for tax preparers and software companies. Just a few years ago Intuit (Turbo Tax) and other tax filing companies successfully lobbied the federal government (and each party) to get rid of free filing systems online so they could corner the market on ease of access tax filing systems. This is a blatant corruption of our tax system across the board and people should have their heads chopped off for it.
Getting rid of the income tax would drive tax procurement to other areas that would definitely hurt most people more than existing schemes. And I believe our tax system is more complicated than most because we embed social welfare programs into the tax code instead of implementing them as their own programs.
I think the ideal tax system is one with fewer deductions and subsidies which just obfuscate the entire system (of which the US has hundreds), a logarithmic tax scale which simplifies and enables anyone to know how much they will be taxed, taxing personal and corporate incomes with the same rules and automatically calculating a persons taxes with an objection system instead of the other way around. States and counties with heavy sales taxes would generally serve their constituents better by reducing them and making up the difference through income taxation.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: PatrickKn] 1
#28143402 - 01/16/23 06:00 PM (1 year, 11 days ago) |
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The best way is to figure ones tax monthly (income); and change deductions accordingly / file exempt for the appropriate month(s)or so.....the goal being to get as close to zero for a tax refund as possible, otherwise you have just given the government an interest free loan.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,470
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: nooneman] 1
#28143408 - 01/16/23 06:01 PM (1 year, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: I feel like this is a reasonable proposal we can all get behind. Let's lower taxes. Especially income tax, but hey, I'm easy, could be any tax.
Now I know some of you would like to lower taxes to zero, and maybe there's some good arguments for that, but every little bit helps right? If we can all get behind just lowering taxes, that'll benefit everyone. Do you like the amount of income tax you're paying now, or would you like to pay less?
You might ask "how will we pay for it?" Easy: eliminate the DEA. Problem solved. 
I feel like we can all get behind lowering taxes a bit. What do you think?
Eliminating the DEA wouldn't make a fucking dent. We spend a trillion more a year than we tax, so eliminating a 3.5 billion dollar agency is meaningless.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28143814 - 01/17/23 12:15 AM (1 year, 10 days ago) |
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The DEA part was just a joke.
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thetruthsohelp
Stranger

Registered: 03/17/22
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: nooneman]
#28143952 - 01/17/23 04:46 AM (1 year, 10 days ago) |
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I'm all for lowering taxes accross the board. I also think we should have a flat tax of 30% on income for everyone, that way there can be no accusations that fuel class warfare rhetoric. We all should pay the same percentage.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: I'm all for lowering taxes accross the board. I also think we should have a flat tax of 30% on income for everyone, that way there can be no accusations that fuel class warfare rhetoric. We all should pay the same percentage.
A flat tax will raise taxes on most Americans. So much for "lowering taxes across the board."
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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thetruthsohelp
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28144083 - 01/17/23 07:53 AM (1 year, 10 days ago) |
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Well at least it would be fair. As for lowering taxes, how about abolishing all other taxes except income tax that would be a flat tax.
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christopera
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What?
How is it that American's have no idea how taxes work? It kills me.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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thetruthsohelp
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What what? How come Americans think they never have to explain themselves....
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thetruthsohelp
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What kills me is that Americans had a revolution over minimal taxation and now everyone just accepts that if it moves it should be taxed, if it stops it should be taxed, if it dies it should be taxed.
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christopera
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How is flat tax fair?
How is abolishing taxes going to make things better?
Go look at the places with the lowest taxes and see how equity is at it is lowest.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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thetruthsohelp
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Its fair because everyone pays the same percentage.
Abolishing taxes means more money in the pockets of the average joe and less in the pockets of corrupt politicans to spend and what 'they' think is best for you.
How do higher taxes mean more 'equity'?
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christopera
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That's not how finances work. Have you ever paid taxes, because you sound like you haven't.
High taxes mean more equity because wealthier people don't need the extra money. Especially the super rich, they are so rich that they don't need the services the normal people need.
Have you ever ridden a bus? How about driven on a road? Maybe went to public school? They don't just appear out of thin air.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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thetruthsohelp
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Registered: 03/17/22
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Quote:
christopera said: That's not how finances work. Have you ever paid taxes, because you sound like you haven't.
High taxes mean more equity because wealthier people don't need the extra money. Especially the super rich, they are so rich that they don't need the services the normal people need.
Have you ever ridden a bus? How about driven on a road? Maybe went to public school? They don't just appear out of thin air.
The fact that you think most taxes go to pay for better roads and public schools shows your naivety. How ludicrous.
As for rich people not needing their money. Who are you to decide for another person what they need or don't need or how they are to spend their money? Its none of my business what other people choose to spend their money on or what they need or don't need. The less taxes the more money in everyones pockets and I trust individuals who work for their money to spend it more wisely than politicians.
And yes I pay taxes like everyone else.
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christopera
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I never said most taxes do those things. That's a strawman.
I am a person in society, just like you. We all have decided that people need to pay to support society. It's actually pretty simple. In fact, when you look at pieces of society with the greatest equity and greatest quality of life, they also generally have the highest taxes. Especially so on the very wealthy. Not much you can do about that.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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SirTripAlot
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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: Its fair because everyone pays the same percentage.
Abolishing taxes means more money in the pockets of the average joe and less in the pockets of corrupt politicans to spend and what 'they' think is best for you.
How do higher taxes mean more 'equity'? 
Like I stated earlier almost 40% of Americans don't pay income tax. A flat tax would impact those folks big time, and put less money in their pocket.
I do think everyone should pay income tax, but at a very low level or a standard amount below a certain income level. It really isn't "fair" for the other 60% of Americans foot the entire bill. I also think it would make people feel like they got some skin in the game.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (01/17/23 09:20 AM)
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Kryptos
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: Its fair because everyone pays the same percentage.
Abolishing taxes means more money in the pockets of the average joe and less in the pockets of corrupt politicans to spend and what 'they' think is best for you.
How do higher taxes mean more 'equity'? 
Like I stated earlier almost 40% of Americans don't pay income tax. A flat tax would impact those folks big time, and put less money in their pocket.
I do think everyone should pay income tax, but at a very low level or a standard amount below a certain income level. It really isn't "fair" for the other 60% of Americans foot the entire bill. I also think it would make people feel like they got some skin in the game.
I wouldn't necessarily describe people who are literally too poor to pay taxes having to pay taxes as "fair". Seems it would be much more fair to create a society where wealth is distributed equally enough that there isn't an established underclass of working poor that earn so little money they can't even afford to pay taxes (among other things), while 59% of Americans pick up the tab for the rest (HAHAHA, you think the 1% pays taxes? lol)
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Kryptos
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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: I'm all for lowering taxes accross the board. I also think we should have a flat tax of 30% on income for everyone, that way there can be no accusations that fuel class warfare rhetoric. We all should pay the same percentage.
So, raise taxes on everyone that makes less than ~450k/year (single filer, married joint filers would be somewhere around 1 mil annual income), and lower taxes on everyone that makes above 450k/year?
Sounds like you just wanna give a bunch of money to the rich. Specifically, the top, oh, half a percent would see their taxes go down, while the 99.5% at the bottom would see their taxes go up.
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Enlil
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Registered: 08/16/03
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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: Well at least it would be fair. As for lowering taxes, how about abolishing all other taxes except income tax that would be a flat tax.
Your sense of fairness and mine are completely different. IMO, there's nothing fair about making the poorest among us even poorer.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kryptos]
#28144993 - 01/17/23 07:07 PM (1 year, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: Its fair because everyone pays the same percentage.
Abolishing taxes means more money in the pockets of the average joe and less in the pockets of corrupt politicans to spend and what 'they' think is best for you.
How do higher taxes mean more 'equity'? 
Like I stated earlier almost 40% of Americans don't pay income tax. A flat tax would impact those folks big time, and put less money in their pocket.
I do think everyone should pay income tax, but at a very low level or a standard amount below a certain income level. It really isn't "fair" for the other 60% of Americans foot the entire bill. I also think it would make people feel like they got some skin in the game.
I wouldn't necessarily describe people who are literally too poor to pay taxes having to pay taxes as "fair". Seems it would be much more fair to create a society where wealth is distributed equally enough that there isn't an established underclass of working poor that earn so little money they can't even afford to pay taxes (among other things), while 59% of Americans pick up the tab for the rest (HAHAHA, you think the 1% pays taxes? lol)
.... under the poverty line ($12,000), or around that, no. But people making 25- 30k or so could cough up a nominal amount. To drive on roads, schools etc....thats not to much to ask. That amount wouldn't break them, and yes they live in a society and use public services. It might even spur them to think where that money's going. Let's face it, when the Fed is not taking any income tax, what do they care what it's spent on?
It's a pipedream though, because it would give a raging class warfare booner to the powers that be. I also think the term loophole is completely a detriment to those who perceive tax law. As long as its on the books, its a law. The term makes one envisage someone violating the law through some shady activity....well, change the law then (yeah,I know goos luck);otherwise, the loop will be taken in full legal advantage.
Is there anyone here that doesn't take legal tax deductions?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (01/17/23 07:09 PM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,795
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: Well at least it would be fair. As for lowering taxes, how about abolishing all other taxes except income tax that would be a flat tax.
I make $100,000,000 and pay $30,000,000 in taxes leaving me $70,000,000 to fuck around with for the year. You make 10,000 and pay 3,000 leaving you 7,000 to live on for the year.
Sounds fair?
--------------------
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christopera
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: ballsalsa]
#28145072 - 01/17/23 08:21 PM (1 year, 10 days ago) |
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Those wages are pathetic. $70M a year...
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: Its fair because everyone pays the same percentage.
Abolishing taxes means more money in the pockets of the average joe and less in the pockets of corrupt politicans to spend and what 'they' think is best for you.
How do higher taxes mean more 'equity'? 
Like I stated earlier almost 40% of Americans don't pay income tax. A flat tax would impact those folks big time, and put less money in their pocket.
I do think everyone should pay income tax, but at a very low level or a standard amount below a certain income level. It really isn't "fair" for the other 60% of Americans foot the entire bill. I also think it would make people feel like they got some skin in the game.
I wouldn't necessarily describe people who are literally too poor to pay taxes having to pay taxes as "fair". Seems it would be much more fair to create a society where wealth is distributed equally enough that there isn't an established underclass of working poor that earn so little money they can't even afford to pay taxes (among other things), while 59% of Americans pick up the tab for the rest (HAHAHA, you think the 1% pays taxes? lol)
.... under the poverty line ($12,000), or around that, no. But people making 25- 30k or so could cough up a nominal amount. To drive on roads, schools etc....thats not to much to ask. That amount wouldn't break them, and yes they live in a society and use public services. It might even spur them to think where that money's going. Let's face it, when the Fed is not taking any income tax, what do they care what it's spent on?
It's a pipedream though, because it would give a raging class warfare booner to the powers that be. I also think the term loophole is completely a detriment to those who perceive tax law. As long as its on the books, its a law. The term makes one envisage someone violating the law through some shady activity....well, change the law then (yeah,I know goos luck);otherwise, the loop will be taken in full legal advantage.
Is there anyone here that doesn't take legal tax deductions?
The US poverty line is also stupidly low. Wiki links a study that showed in 2017 that 61% of people making between 1-2x the poverty line still couldn't afford basics. Turns out that sort of thing happens when your definition of "basics" was set in 1955 and never updated.
I guess that's kind of part of the point? I think the true poverty rate is probably best described by those too poor to pay taxes, and yes, that includes people making 25-30k a year. That is a very small amount of money. The only time I lived like that I was a college student, and had zero health issues and all the time in the world. I couldn't even imagine trying to live like that now, and I'm still healthy and under 40.
And yes, considering the median pay in the US is around 30k, that means half the country is in poverty.
I also have, on occasion, not taken legal tax deductions. Primarily because I was young and stupid and the tax code is specifically written in a way to make taking deductions not obvious.
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christopera
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kryptos]
#28145597 - 01/18/23 08:13 AM (1 year, 9 days ago) |
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There's absolutely no education in this country regarding tax law. How is that even possible? It's designed to scam the poor. Meanwhile dipshits think a flat tax rate is a good thing.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Quote:
christopera said: That's not how finances work. Have you ever paid taxes, because you sound like you haven't.
High taxes mean more equity because wealthier people don't need the extra money. Especially the super rich, they are so rich that they don't need the services the normal people need.
Have you ever ridden a bus? How about driven on a road? Maybe went to public school? They don't just appear out of thin air.
BULLPUSSY!
The states control the public school system. Here is a great idea: let's stop excessive spending. The states also control the transport system.
The federal income tax is so complicated because Congress sets up tax with special rules, so they can buy votes.
Because taxes pay all the beaucrats.
Note that government employees get a lot better benefits and salary than the average Joe.
I don't know if Congress has Congress tax benefits. 😋
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christopera
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Ummm, okay.
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Kryptos
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Federal Income Tax is complicated because HR Block wants to make money.
And yes, lets stop excessive spending. I propose we start with farming, fossil fuel, and military funding.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kryptos]
#28146739 - 01/18/23 10:07 PM (1 year, 8 days ago) |
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Unfortunately, for every billion you cut in spending, that's a billion dollars less going to people's wages
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Kryptos
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil] 1
#28149773 - 01/20/23 11:53 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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Put that spending into free college so they can learn how to plumb hydroponics or wire solar panels or some similar futuristic equivalent of farming, coal mining, ...and we can just do with less blowing people up in general. Actually, I've always thought that the military, and definitely the national guards and coast guards and shit, should be used to do infrastructure projects. Like the Army Corps, but on a much larger scale. Then maybe we can retrain the tank welders in Ohio to weld like, structural tanks. That way, they can defend freedom AND build houses and powerplants and shit.
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PatrickKn


Registered: 07/10/11
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kryptos]
#28149807 - 01/21/23 12:17 AM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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That might sound good on paper, and I've heard people with similar sentiments, but makes pretty much 0 sense in the real world and would probably have the opposite effect of whatever you're trying to achieve long term.
For one, people in the national guard are generally part time soldiers who answer to their state Governors and are funded by their states and Federal government equally. They are hardly trained in doing infrastructure projects as a whole (outside of limited construction stuff), and really what purpose would that serve? You're activating whole units who are not professionals at infrastructure specialties, and you're pulling them away from their own jobs and whatnot, feeding them, paying them, etc. Makes 0 sense. Perhaps you meant the regular Army, but that doesn't make much sense either.
The Coast Guard is an active component of Homeland Security and has a job to do that isn't working on infrastructure projects outside of their own scope.
The Army Corp of Engineers is actually a civilian branch of the Army, and actually consists of professionals in engineering, specialists and people who spend their whole time working and planning on infrastructure projects. If they need personnel from the military components of the Army, they can get it.
Most infrastructure projects are in better hands in civilian contracts who specialize in whatever project they're doing anyway, you'd spend more money and get worse results assigning random military units to this kind of stuff. That kind of mentality doesn't make much sense with a volunteer military generally, it's something governments generally do with conscript armies.
Edited by PatrickKn (01/21/23 12:25 AM)
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Kryptos
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I disagree for two reasons:
1) The point isn't to turn the army into a labor force, the purpose is to see the army as more than an army, which is likely the future of the army anyway. Technology acts as enough of a force multiplier that smaller and smaller groups of soldiers can control larger swaths of land, and the other soldiers can be used elsewhere.
2) Much more importantly, the government has no profit motive, and can therefore do infrastructure projects that are not economically viable, or take place in remote locations.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28150852 - 01/21/23 04:52 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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I have seen private organizations take over military functions....a small example is in the chow hall. Used to be PFCs and Ln corporals. The food by the private company was absolute more shitty.
What people forget to put into the equation: it is a job for civilian workers, its a duty for military personnel. All for using our military for a force for good. There have been many questionable examples of the opposite. Think shovel ready stuff and infastructure would be a step in the right direction, especially troops in garrison.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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Yeah, but as an American, you should be proud that some CEO took half your food budget for his yacht fund, and fed you scraps.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kryptos]
#28153377 - 01/23/23 08:16 AM (1 year, 4 days ago) |
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And the rest of the ' money's went to raises for Congress.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Hey Ballsy. Do you think those new 85,000 IRS agents are to go after the rich?
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Clutch2481
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: The best way is to figure ones tax monthly (income); and change deductions accordingly / file exempt for the appropriate month(s)or so.....the goal being to get as close to zero for a tax refund as possible, otherwise you have just given the government an interest free loan.
Once you reach a certain tax bracket it doesn’t matter if you claim 0. You end up paying quarterly estimates so you don’t have to pay out your teeth at the end of the year. Makes me sick to have to do that while there are people who refuse to get a decent job and get rewarded for it. Stupid systems that reward laziness.
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Kizzle
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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: Well at least it would be fair. As for lowering taxes, how about abolishing all other taxes except income tax that would be a flat tax.
It wouldn't be fair at all. What would actually be fair would be instead of having an income tax, taxing every person the same fixed amount regardless of income which would be something like $15,000 per year. That of course would never work because some people don't even earn $15,000 per year. Life is not fair and so netiher are taxes.
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Kryptos
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kizzle]
#28159476 - 01/27/23 08:11 AM (1 year, 13 hours ago) |
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I'm still somewhat in favor of getting rid of income tax and replacing it with investment and employment tax.
You wanna hire someone? You're gonna pay taxes on their work. You wanna invest? You're gonna pay taxes on that.
Workers shouldn't pay taxes if they don't get the benefits of equity.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kryptos]
#28159717 - 01/27/23 11:25 AM (1 year, 9 hours ago) |
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You want employers to pay SSI and Medicare for their employees? What about if one doesn't have a jobby job? ......the company goes belly up and doesn't cough up the money? The employee would be screwed. I haven't given that much thought, but it sounds ripe for fuzzy accounting and shit wages.
I do hope the government taxes the piss out of AI/ robots for their labor.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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Well, it's related to my concrete boxes/make life an MMO idea. If you don't have a jobby job, you get to have some bare minimum accomodations, entertainment, and food. Enough to physically live.
Anything you want above bare minimum survival, you work for. The idea of shifting the tax burden entirely onto the owning class counters the reality that the owning class would be getting fat subsidies to make the first point, bare minimum survival for all.
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mycot
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: I do hope the government taxes the piss out of AI/ robots for their labor.
That's twice I've now come across this idea now and it's not going to happen and doesn't make sense since it's just a piece of owned technology.
We don't charge computers tax for the work they perform nor do we tax the work that machinery does. All these things including AI are just tools. The economics of tech though are another matter especially in capitalistic societies.
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: mycot] 1
#28161460 - 01/28/23 02:32 PM (11 months, 23 days ago) |
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Labor isn't taxed anyway. Income is.
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Kryptos
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28161485 - 01/28/23 02:54 PM (11 months, 23 days ago) |
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That would be an interesting play, too. Tax labor, and not income.
This would, essentially, be a tax on owning things too.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kryptos]
#28161514 - 01/28/23 03:11 PM (11 months, 23 days ago) |
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Not sure how it would work unless there was a running figure/tally of how much "income" said robot "made" to take a slice from that has an indirect link to labor, or changing the tax code. A decade from now AI should be very close to taking away some jobs.....how much and what is anyone's guess. Or tax the dogshit upfront at purchase point. Talking like semi sentient Boston Dynamics bots of 2035 or something.
There is some AI in a court for a speeding ticket type stuff I read about with the Defendant wearing an earpiece to regurgitate whatever the program tells him/her to. Even at that point I would think how one speaks in the court would make just as much difference as what you said. Sounding monotone or like your reading from a book wouldn't sound to convincing.
That said, with written legal stuff seems copy and paste or form drafts like fill in the blank for menial legal things....I have seen them.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (01/28/23 06:17 PM)
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thetruthsohelp
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28161654 - 01/28/23 05:01 PM (11 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Labor isn't taxed anyway. Income is.
Since the produce of labor is counted in money, whats the difference?
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budmanman
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You could have had this but you didn't.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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budmanman
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28161862 - 01/28/23 07:14 PM (11 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Labor isn't taxed anyway. Income is.
Income isn't taxed if you know what you are doing.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Enlil
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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Labor isn't taxed anyway. Income is.
Since the produce of labor is counted in money, whats the difference?
I reject your premise. Do you actually believe that money earned is an accurate gauge of the quantity of labor? If so, I want to live in your world, bro
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28162521 - 01/29/23 08:45 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
budmanman said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Labor isn't taxed anyway. Income is.
Income isn't taxed if you know what you are doing.
There will always be immoral people out there. I'm not talking about that.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28162528 - 01/29/23 08:50 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Would piece rate pay be an instance or that just production of labor, and not necessarily quantity?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Enlil
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In our economy, compensation is based on output more than input. There is no question that those who work harder often make less than others. This is because our markets are driven by perception. People who can manipulate perception will invariably create more value for a company than people who can simply do better (or more) work. An executive who can convince the public to buy an inferior widget brings more profit to a company than a craftsman who makes the best widget. Beyond that, an executive who gives the owners (shareholders) the perception that the company is successful brings even more value to the company than one who increases sales.
Building a better mousetrap isn't enough (or even necessary) anymore.
That's the reality. Because of this, the executive will earn more despite him doing less actual labor. To whatever extent there exists an objective "fairness," it is certainly fair to pay people based on their intellectual manipulation skills insofar as those skills result in increased profits. As people, however, who see systemic imbalance between the hard-working poor and the rich living in leisure, it certainly is a hard pill to swallow.
Taxing labor, which is the hypothetical considered here, would only serve to tax the poor more than the rich, which is the opposite of what we need in order to thrive.
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budmanman
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28162559 - 01/29/23 09:24 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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All I am hearing you say is we needed to shoot the tax code.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Kryptos
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28162578 - 01/29/23 09:30 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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If you tax the labor result instead of the income, then the people who own the labor will be paying the tax.
In other words, not the workers.
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28162581 - 01/29/23 09:31 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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When the space shuttle was first built, it was controlled by computers running COBOL. COBOL is an antiquated programming language that hasn't been used in decades. After the shuttle had been flying for about 20 years, NASA wanted to upgrade their computers, but they couldn't find anything that would run COBOL. Of course, some said that they should just recode the systems in a modern language, but the risk was that an error would cause some catastrophe, and the systems had been working correctly for so long.
This is the same problem we have with the tax code.
The tax code is a big fucking mess. Everyone in Washington wants a new, better tax code. This has been universal for at least 30 years. The problem is that it's so big and complicated that there is a very real chance of fucking the economy up if the transition isn't done right. It's one thing to throw out "simple" solutions, but the reality is that the tax code is like a jacket with so many patches that there is no jacket showing anymore. Creating a new tax code is easy, but creating one that will approximate the current results for 300+ million Americans such that we don't send a group into instant poverty is a whole other thing.
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kryptos]
#28162586 - 01/29/23 09:32 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: If you tax the labor result instead of the income, then the people who own the labor will be paying the tax.
In other words, not the workers.
The workers own the labor, dude. Slavery has been illegal for a long, long time. Workers sell their labor to employers.
"labor result" is just another way of saying output or value. That's reflected in income in our economy, which is what is taxed now.
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Kryptos
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28162589 - 01/29/23 09:34 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: If you tax the labor result instead of the income, then the people who own the labor will be paying the tax.
In other words, not the workers.
The workers own the labor, dude. Slavery has been illegal for a long, long time. Workers sell their labor to employers.
They don't own the *result* of their labor.
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kryptos]
#28162590 - 01/29/23 09:35 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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How is the result any different from value as I discussed above?
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budmanman
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28162594 - 01/29/23 09:39 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: When the space shuttle was first built, it was controlled by computers running COBOL. COBOL is an antiquated programming language that hasn't been used in decades. After the shuttle had been flying for about 20 years, NASA wanted to upgrade their computers, but they couldn't find anything that would run COBOL. Of course, some said that they should just recode the systems in a modern language, but the risk was that an error would cause some catastrophe, and the systems had been working correctly for so long.
This is the same problem we have with the tax code.
The tax code is a big fucking mess. Everyone in Washington wants a new, better tax code. This has been universal for at least 30 years. The problem is that it's so big and complicated that there is a very real chance of fucking the economy up if the transition isn't done right. It's one thing to throw out "simple" solutions, but the reality is that the tax code is like a jacket with so many patches that there is no jacket showing anymore. Creating a new tax code is easy, but creating one that will approximate the current results for 300+ million Americans such that we don't send a group into instant poverty is a whole other thing.
Sending a group into instant poverty is a risk I am willing to take.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28162597 - 01/29/23 09:41 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Of course you are. That's why you live in a shack. In our advanced society, however, we choose leaders looking at a bigger picture.
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Ice9
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28162599 - 01/29/23 09:41 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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When you belong to that group
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Kryptos
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28162604 - 01/29/23 09:46 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Guess I missed that part.
Taxing value is the right way to go, but at the same time, you will need to figure out a good way to sell it to the people. It's not very intuitive, due to the disconnect between work and income. Of course, people are taught that work and income are directly related, so...
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kryptos]
#28162606 - 01/29/23 09:47 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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We already tax value, though. Income reflects value, and we tax income.
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budmanman
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28162608 - 01/29/23 09:48 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Of course you are. That's why you live in a shack. In our advanced society, however, we choose leaders looking at a bigger picture.
I own my home and I have more bedrooms than I need or know what to do with, with an oversized 2 car garage on a quarter acre in the heart of a major city just 5 minutes from my work.
Which also happens to be the largest building on Earth, though tesla has been claiming the Giga factory is bigger but I actually doubt that it is.
Ain't no shack. You on the other hand have been reduced to a mere renter.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
Edited by budmanman (01/29/23 09:55 AM)
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ballsalsa
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28162778 - 01/29/23 11:58 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: We already tax value, though. Income reflects value, and we tax income.
We just have to start expanding the definition of income a bit to include more non-cash compensation and tax capital gains at the same rate.(as income)
--------------------
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: ballsalsa]
#28162798 - 01/29/23 12:10 PM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Short term capital gains is already taxed as regular income. Long-term enjoys the lower rate, but it's hard to tell who that will hurt more. There's a very real possibility that you'd hit pensions really hard that way.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28162811 - 01/29/23 12:16 PM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Disberse money from the revenues to cover the losses of individual pensioners
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: ballsalsa]
#28162821 - 01/29/23 12:26 PM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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It's not an uncommon solution, but that continues the pattern of "break it and then fix it" that has led us here. There should be a way to design a system that doesn't need bandaids to fix the unwanted effects of tax laws
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ballsalsa
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28162855 - 01/29/23 12:52 PM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Do it iteratively. Maybe tie the process to the census
--------------------
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Kickle
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28163033 - 01/29/23 02:44 PM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: When the space shuttle was first built, it was controlled by computers running COBOL. COBOL is an antiquated programming language that hasn't been used in decades. After the shuttle had been flying for about 20 years, NASA wanted to upgrade their computers, but they couldn't find anything that would run COBOL. Of course, some said that they should just recode the systems in a modern language, but the risk was that an error would cause some catastrophe, and the systems had been working correctly for so long.
This is the same problem we have with the tax code.
The tax code is a big fucking mess. Everyone in Washington wants a new, better tax code. This has been universal for at least 30 years. The problem is that it's so big and complicated that there is a very real chance of fucking the economy up if the transition isn't done right. It's one thing to throw out "simple" solutions, but the reality is that the tax code is like a jacket with so many patches that there is no jacket showing anymore. Creating a new tax code is easy, but creating one that will approximate the current results for 300+ million Americans such that we don't send a group into instant poverty is a whole other thing.
Good analogy 
I actually think computer simulations have a strong potential to solve problems like this. At least to a degree of confidence it's worth moving forward.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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budmanman
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kickle]
#28163066 - 01/29/23 03:10 PM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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The Boeing 747's software is still installed by these bad boys.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28163070 - 01/29/23 03:14 PM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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No, it isn't.
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budmanman
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28163077 - 01/29/23 03:19 PM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28163081 - 01/29/23 03:22 PM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Your link says 3.5 inch, not the 5.5.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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budmanman
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Well the older models use the big ass ones.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28163086 - 01/29/23 03:26 PM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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Your photo was of an 8 inch disk. The article says 3.5. That means you're wrong.
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budmanman
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28163087 - 01/29/23 03:26 PM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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The last 1 was just rolled out of the factory though a few weeks or so ago.
I have yet to ever see a floppy drive on a 777 and I hope they are finally past that.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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mushboy
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28163578 - 01/29/23 10:08 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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why would you be dishonest about a disk that is used to update basic software?
The floppy disks are used to load navigational databases which need to be updated regularly, every 28 days.
Edited by mushboy (01/29/23 10:11 PM)
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Kryptos
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil] 1
#28163581 - 01/29/23 10:10 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Short term capital gains is already taxed as regular income. Long-term enjoys the lower rate, but it's hard to tell who that will hurt more. There's a very real possibility that you'd hit pensions really hard that way.
Seems like pensions should maybe not be tied to capital gains, then, no?
It's great in theory, because the market always goes up, but in practice...well, the market doesn't always go up. Perhaps that is a burden best shifted back to the pension provider?
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budmanman
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: mushboy]
#28163618 - 01/29/23 10:45 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: why would you be dishonest about a disk that is used to update basic software?
The floppy disks are used to load navigational databases which need to be updated regularly, every 28 days.
The whole point was that the entire plane still uses ancient tech just like the NASA computers.
The planes design basically hasn't changed much since 1989, it basically had almost no relevant changes since then and is being decommissioned for its emission standards.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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mushboy
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28163633 - 01/29/23 11:03 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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the outrage
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budmanman
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: mushboy]
#28163663 - 01/29/23 11:29 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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It wasn't about outrage
However I know something that you would be outraged about but I am not at liberty to discuss it even though I really want to.
Sometimes I want to be like one of them people that go onto the news and their face is all blacked out and their voice is altered and just let it all out lol.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28163668 - 01/29/23 11:33 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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Sure you do big fella
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PatrickKn


Registered: 07/10/11
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28163669 - 01/29/23 11:33 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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I think what you're trying to say is that they knew the 737s would crash and it was an elaborate insurance scheme all along. Knew it.
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budmanman
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: PatrickKn]
#28163688 - 01/30/23 12:09 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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Well they knew that it would crash but that is all in a documentary.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28163940 - 01/30/23 08:11 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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First, there is nothing "ancient" about floppy discs. Second, planes have always flown using ancient technology. Believe it or not, birds have been using such technology for millions of years before Boeing existed.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil] 1
#28163954 - 01/30/23 08:17 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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They just wing it.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Enlil
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I don't want to get into a flap with you over it, but I gotta say that your comment made me a bit soar. I don't know feather your intent was to hurt my feelings, but I'd like to settle this in one fell swoop.
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mushboy
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28163965 - 01/30/23 08:22 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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youll need a wing and prayer with this group homie
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil] 2
#28163974 - 01/30/23 08:26 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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You make me want to give you the bird.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Enlil
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28163979 - 01/30/23 08:30 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: mushboy]
#28163981 - 01/30/23 08:31 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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Why'd you go with the live version?
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mushboy
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28163985 - 01/30/23 08:33 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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its played at a slightly faster tempo and adrian smiths solo is fucking epic.
ive probably listened to live after death more than any album. its my default go to
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: mushboy]
#28164007 - 01/30/23 08:59 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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Michael Shannon nails it in the series as George. First scene with him in the motel room is fucking hilarious.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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mushboy
modboy



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boardwalk?
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28164013 - 01/30/23 09:04 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (01/30/23 09:34 AM)
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mushboy
modboy



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country music?

you done flew the coop son
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: mushboy]
#28164024 - 01/30/23 09:10 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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If its good, it's good....lots of degenerates there. I seen Maiden in 85 in Detroit.
Edit World Slavery tour.
They had ChurchHills speech.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (01/30/23 09:14 AM)
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mushboy
modboy



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i was 1 year old then but ive seen them 7 times.
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Ice9
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: mushboy]
#28164079 - 01/30/23 09:52 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: I don't want to get into a flap with you over it, but I gotta say that your comment made me a bit soar. I don't know feather your intent was to hurt my feelings, but I'd like to settle this in one fell swoop.
This quacks me up, but toucan play this game.
Quote:
mushboy said: country music?

you done flew the coop son
Country music is fowl.
Ok this getting unpheasant and hawkward, some of these puns a bit of ostrich (a stretch)
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Ice9] 1
#28164080 - 01/30/23 09:53 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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im going to get high
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budmanman
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28164235 - 01/30/23 11:35 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: First, there is nothing "ancient" about floppy discs. Second, planes have always flown using ancient technology. Believe it or not, birds have been using such technology for millions of years before Boeing existed.
Oh they're ancient alright, you need to accept it. Maybe it just bothers you that if you were to accept it, that it would also mean you are ancient.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28164237 - 01/30/23 11:38 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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An·cient /ˈān(t)SHənt/ adjective
1. belonging to the very distant past and no longer in existence: "the ancient civilizations of the Mediterranean"
Since they are still in existence, they are not ancient.
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budmanman
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28164251 - 01/30/23 11:47 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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Damn and I thought the pyramids of Giza were ancient but they still exist so they are a modern marvel.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Enlil
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28164277 - 01/30/23 12:03 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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I'm sure this isn't the last time you'll be wrong.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28164571 - 01/30/23 03:35 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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thetruthsohelp
Stranger

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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28164610 - 01/30/23 04:04 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: An·cient /ˈān(t)SHənt/ adjective
1. belonging to the very distant past and no longer in existence: "the ancient civilizations of the Mediterranean"
Since they are still in existence, they are not ancient.
Yeah but the civilization that they are from are non-existent, therefore the structers are ancient, duh. Ancient structures do not mean non-existent structures
[mod edit: removed flame]
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Enlil
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The civilization that created 8 inch floppy disks is a modern one, homie. It is very much still in existence. The Air Force used them up until a few years ago. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a29539578/air-force-floppy-disks/
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budmanman
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Enlil]
#28164809 - 01/30/23 05:57 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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And now they're an ancient relic of the past just like you.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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thetruthsohelp
Stranger

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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28164838 - 01/30/23 06:17 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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As far as Im concerned our civilization as we know it died at the turn of the last century.
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budmanman
OTD Masterbater



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I blame 911
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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asterix
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman]
#28170007 - 02/02/23 09:44 PM (11 months, 17 days ago) |
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Where'd you find that definition?
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher



Registered: 04/24/20
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: nooneman] 1
#28176358 - 02/07/23 02:36 PM (11 months, 13 days ago) |
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Nations which pay more in overall taxes witness greater quality of life, healthcare, etc. so there isn't really much use in lowering taxes ubiquitously.
However, we do know there is significant inequality in the amounts of taxes different tax brackets pay given that lower income families periodically pay out of their subsistence funds (I.e., funds needed for basic human needs). Likewise, many rich businesses have ways of evading local jurisdictions' tax laws through trans-national supply chains & off-shore processing zones.
Given these facts, it is reasonable (& I argue necessary for establishing human rights) to place considerably greater tax burden on the rich; lessening the taxes lower classes need to pay out of their subsistence pools.
Why won't this happen? Well, neoliberalism (the heart of post-industrial capitalism) has set forth global free-market policies which incentivizes companies to move to jurisdictions with the greatest economic-power-to-low-tax ratios (this is why the U.S. is so powerful; high value currency + low corporate tax).
I.e., the moment a nation raises corporate tax, their economy suffers; which can easily be taken advantage of in a fairly competitive global market. Businesses move to lower-taxed nations and their economic power allows them the mobility to do so where smaller companies cannot. Meanwhile, lower classes at the local level must compete for lower wages to prevent employers from moving to areas with even cheaper labour (tax-wise & minimum-wage-wise). This phenomenon has been termed the race to the bottom.
The solution in my - subjective, but arguably well-informed - opinion is to recognize the fundamental need to regulate the economy insofar as basic human rights are affected, which tends to be greater than most people who are subsumed under an individualistic capitalist culture tend to be convinced of by the dominant western culture. We need global market regulations so that individual nations don't feel pressured by international competitors to increase the income gap.
Neoliberalism (free market capitalism) must be restricted at the global level where basic human rights are concerned otherwise there is no way we will fairly & reasonably reduce taxes for the lower class without sacrificing the economic safety of an individual nation.
An example of such restriction would be to set a standardized global minimum wage that is pegged to the value of each nation's currency, and ensuring this minimum wage meets what is internationally recognized as basic subsistence needs for a family. This way workers cannot be exploited for their basic human needs. I.e, only their leisurely & non-essential resources can be leveraged over workers. People will be motivated by non-essential benefits, rather than existential desperation. Companies will then be at the mercy of governments and the people rather than the other way around as they will be reliant on happy workers who are paid an affordable minimum wage & reasonable taxes that don't take healthy & nutritious food off the table. We will then be able to raise corporate tax without the risk of companies relocating & crippling our economy.
Edited by Rhizomorph (02/07/23 02:55 PM)
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budmanman
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People say nations with higher taxes have a higher quality of life however any time you look up the rate of car ownership in these places its very low like under 40% so I am not sure how great of a life you can live if u can't even afford to take a drive up into the wilderness to go for a hike.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher



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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: budmanman] 1
#28176386 - 02/07/23 02:56 PM (11 months, 13 days ago) |
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I don't know man, the stats don't lie and the quality of life metrics are fairly reliable at this point in time.
There's a lot of factors of course, but I think you're missing the rhetoric of the statistic I provided in this context
Edited by Rhizomorph (02/07/23 02:57 PM)
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Kryptos
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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Rhizomorph] 1
#28176592 - 02/07/23 06:22 PM (11 months, 13 days ago) |
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Owning a car in Europe is dumb as fuck, you can take a bus or a train anywhere.
I'd even go so far as to say owning a car outside the US/Canada is kinda dumb, because no other government subsidizes gas so heavily. I was over in Europe a bit ago, and gas is like 6$ a gallon over there. Everything else is way cheaper, though. I was a little bit surprised, going shopping I spent less than half of what a week of food costs in the US.
Though, I will take issue with the idea that lower tax rates lead to companies moving there. This is only sometimes true. Sure, an Irish HQ was considered the corporate Gold Standard for a long time due to zero tax rates in Ireland, but that requires a well established international corporation that can afford to buy an extremely expensive plot of corporate HQ land in Ireland.
There was an interesting thing that happened in the midwest back in 2010. Minnesota and Wisconsin were, functionally, the exact same state. Literally, everything was the same. Average income, average happiness, average everything. Then, in 2010, Minnesota elected a democrat governor, I wanna say pawlenty? Who raised corporate tax raites and lowered personal tax rates. At the same time, Wisconsin elected Scott Walker, and began the path down to the gerrymandered alcoholic shithole it is today. Scott Walker, a republican, did the opposite: lowere corporate taxes, raised personal taxes, and started austerity politics.
Between 2010 and 2016, six fortune 500 companies moved their HQs out of Wisconsin and into Minnesota. Turns out that happier and healthier workers are more valuable than a few percent tax income.
edit
https://www.epi.org/publication/as-wisconsins-and-minnesotas-lawmakers-took-divergent-paths-so-did-their-economies-since-2010-minnesotas-economy-has-performed-far-better-for-working-families-than-wisconsin/
I think the companies moving HQs was referenced to there, I can't seem to find the OG article. Think it was rolling stone, maybe star tribune.
Edited by Kryptos (02/07/23 07:05 PM)
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher



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Re: Let's lower taxes. [Re: Kryptos]
#28177469 - 02/08/23 10:45 AM (11 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Though, I will take issue with the idea that lower tax rates lead to companies moving there. This is only sometimes true. Sure, an Irish HQ was considered the corporate Gold Standard for a long time due to zero tax rates in Ireland, but that requires a well established international corporation that can afford to buy an extremely expensive plot of corporate HQ land in Ireland.
I may have been somewhat oversimplifying. Organizations obviously don't just move to one country and exist solely in that jurisdiction (their HQ might but that's about it). Most companies of the sort exist as multi-national assemblages.
But, we have to recognize the mobility of these companies. You insinuate that companies may not move to Ireland (Or mobilize certain assets & labour I should say) to Ireland because it requires being well-established and costs a lot. But that's the thing, the companies with the greatest power (to pay wages or not, to mobilize, to constrain the autonomy of individuals & policies) are the ones well established who can afford this. The price tag is worth it in the long run, especially when governments write up contracts under neoliberalism that guarantees these companies amnesty from any changes to the corporate tax code for X number of years.
In short, the biggest companies are in it for the long game, and they control asymmetrical sums of power and wealth that is said to "trickle down" to the labourer. This doesn't always play out without standardized minimum wages of the sort I mentioned before of course (or some other form of market regulation). The smaller companies who may be incentivized to stay based on the principle you mentioned simply have less capacity to pay their workers a living wage; especially if they wish to compete with these mobile companies 
The case with Wisconsin and Minnesota is interesting but I think global supply chains would tell a different story. Macroeconomics and microeconomics function almost blatantly differentially between the global north and south. I'm sure we can find examples all over the western sphere but I don't want the discussion around lowering taxes to subsumed under Eurocentric narratives. I think humans are naturally less tolerant towards economic exploitation when it is happening in our own backyards due to in-group biases & the West is able to make these small-scale changes due to the aforementioned economic power that allows us the power to act on this. This ability to act is contingent on lower corporate taxes nation-wide.
Looking at the question through macro-micro dialectic relationships ties apart the nuances between case examples and general phenomena:
Micro and Macro: The Economic Divide Microsociology Versus Macrosociology
Wallerstein's World Systems is worth looking into as well; most modern economic and sociological analyses of economic inequality often look at the issue through a Worlds Systems lens as we simply cannot bifurcate local economics from world systems. Their inherent nature is to overlap & compete for power.
I generally agree with the democrats' approach, but we need global reforms for the democrats' approach to work ubiquitously. Otherwise we guarantee a perpetual existential free-for-all in the microcosm of the lowest social strata as people fight for basic needs. And as we all know: you cannot build a kingdom on quicksand. I acknowledge my left-leaning bias & loaded language in this paragraph of course.
Edited by Rhizomorph (02/08/23 11:12 AM)
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LotKid
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