Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
Offlineiggyhiggy
Stranger
Registered: 03/30/21
Posts: 333
Last seen: 7 months, 13 days
Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests
    #28142564 - 01/16/23 09:42 AM (1 year, 11 days ago)

During last year Last Generation activists against climate change started to aim cultural and artistical patrimony in order to attract interest on environmental themes.
I've always been (or atleast considered myself) very aware on these issues: i don't have a car, i carefully separate waste to recycle, i eat very little meat, don't heat my house (this year i didn't need to tbh) and in general i reduce consumes about everything. In few words i try to be very carefull on all these issues, and try to adopt all the best practices.
Climate changes seem very evident to me, and they have been extremely noticeable during last decade. Beside climate change, pollution and land consumption are a big and evident problem here.

All this said i think this way to protest, aiming cultural patrimony, is not just highly ineffective, but completely counter-productive.

Sculptures and paintings don't harm environment (not in a significant way atleast), most of their authors are long time dead (often centuries ago, well before humanity was aware on environmental issuues) so they can't do anything to sensibilize people. What has art to do with that?

Plus, i feel this behaviour has more effect in making people take distance from environmentalist movement.

I don't really see how taking care of environment counters taking care of our cultural heritage.

How do you feel about that?
And more important: what do you think can be done of more effective and productive? Can we think of a more constructive way to bring peoples interest on environmental issues?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,357
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 9 hours, 41 minutes
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: iggyhiggy]
    #28142655 - 01/16/23 10:37 AM (1 year, 11 days ago)

I think that any project that aims to address climate change in the long term will need to make a considerable amount of people uncomfortable in the short term. Whether that’s blocking highways, disrupting sporting events, blowing up pipelines, or tossing soup in the Louvre, there is going to be a sizable amount of people saying “look, I was with you, but you’re hurting your own cause.”

It’s the old adage: first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. Right now, with climate change, we are somewhere between being ignored and laughed at.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineiggyhiggy
Stranger
Registered: 03/30/21
Posts: 333
Last seen: 7 months, 13 days
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28142705 - 01/16/23 11:16 AM (1 year, 11 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I think that any project that aims to address climate change in the long term will need to make a considerable amount of people uncomfortable in the short term. Whether that’s blocking highways, disrupting sporting events, blowing up pipelines, or tossing soup in the Louvre, there is going to be a sizable amount of people saying “look, I was with you, but you’re hurting your own cause.”

It’s the old adage: first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. Right now, with climate change, we are somewhere between being ignored and laughed at.




thanks for answering
I agree with most of it, but i don't really understand how tossing soup in the Louvre is helping climate change.
I'm ok with some price to pay in term of conforts, i see how highways, major sport events, pipelines have to do with environment.

It's not like i was with climate activist BEFORE and now i counter them because of it. I feel like this is hurting MY cause, wich coincide with theirs.

It's similar, in a certain sense, how i felt about so called 'cancel culture': Colombo was a men of his time, he lived in his context. Blaming him for disovering a continent, so opening an age of massacre, sounds a bit moronic to me.

Keep in mind i'm not denying the problem; i'm just seeking for a more effective and constructive way of protest, a more clever form of activism.

An example (just came to my mind) would be prevent people from throwing away their garbage before separating it to be recycled. It would surely cause annoyance among tipial citizens who just throw away their garbage in mixed waste, but atleast would attract their interest on something relevant and maybe teach them something useful. on the long term it may also have an impact


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLynnch
Strangerer
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/29/09
Posts: 7,852
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: iggyhiggy]
    #28142731 - 01/16/23 11:38 AM (1 year, 11 days ago)

So, paraphrasing an interview with one of the organizers of that group (if i remember it correctly): They don't think that throwing soup on a painting is going to stop climate change. It's not even really a publicity stunt to bring awareness to climate change. It's a recruitment effort.

You do a protest, not a lot of people show up, the news doesn't cover it. So, you pull a stunt like this, everybody talks about it, and suddenly you have more people interested in your group who want to show up to the next protest.

Recycling.. man we do not want to talk about recycling.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineiggyhiggy
Stranger
Registered: 03/30/21
Posts: 333
Last seen: 7 months, 13 days
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: Lynnch]
    #28142788 - 01/16/23 12:20 PM (1 year, 11 days ago)

yes i'm sure the reason lies in that need of visibility. the point is how everybody talks about it. maybe it depends on location, but i bet not many will be recruited.
I also would question about the 'quality' of those recruited.
We have a word-game, 'militanti' and 'militonti': militants (activist) vs milistupids (tonto means stupid).
Will those ones recruited in this way militans or mili-stupids?

Recycling...why shouldn't you talk about recycling when dealing with environmental issues?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKryptos
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,258
Last seen: 9 hours, 39 minutes
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: iggyhiggy]
    #28144720 - 01/17/23 04:29 PM (1 year, 10 days ago)

What's the difference between a militant and a mili-stupid? Both are idiots.

Real change happens in one of two ways: the wallet and the courtroom. The protest is rarely, if ever, an effective way of bringing change. That's why the powers that be spend so much time teaching us about the power of protest: it has none.

That's also why the powers that be attempt to insulate themselves from effective means of change--I routinely use less than the minimum amount of electricity and water for the month, and get charged the minimum monthly rate (which ends up being 2-3x the actual price per kwh/gallon that I used) because that means I remain profitable. Same with legal protection/government welfare for fossil fuel companies.

At this point, I gotta say, I don't really care if the Mona Lisa is wearing soup. I'd even go so far as to say I don't really care about our cultural heritage, because I don't really find a lot of pride in the culture I find myself in. I find it very difficult to support the status quo.

You know, there's this interesting thought experiment I've always had, with children being the ultimate vote on society. Having children is a vote in favor, not having children is a vote against. I have no interest in having children.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineiggyhiggy
Stranger
Registered: 03/30/21
Posts: 333
Last seen: 7 months, 13 days
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: Kryptos]
    #28145319 - 01/18/23 12:24 AM (1 year, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
What's the difference between a militant and a mili-stupid? Both are idiots.

Real change happens in one of two ways: the wallet and the courtroom. The protest is rarely, if ever, an effective way of bringing change.




I believe you don't see the difference because you have in mind what i call the tipical miliTONTO, identifying a militant with someone who mostly take part in protest.
Cash and Courtrooms are ofcourse two important engines of canges; i consider people habits to be another one. Hell, look at what happened with Social Medias: they changed a lot the way we live sociality, communication, politics...
I'd consider activist anyone who acts and behave in a way functional to the change he has in mind, and promotes these behaviours.
For example i consider myself an environment activist despite not taking part in protest since years, in part because i'm very busy with my work, in part because i don't agree with the way they protest, in part...yeah because like you said those protest don't carry anywhere. I rather choose to adopt and promote habits and behaviour.
It's in part OT but somehow related that i'm also an activist for rights of immigrants: i,ve not been to a protest for that in years, choosing instead to spend much of my free time in migrants ghettos to explain them their rights ( whose they are often NOT aware of) about work, documents, access to healthcare etc...
I have witnessed how this way to be activist is much more profitable than a protest.
My point and question could in the end be reduced to this:
can we find a more effective and moreover 'commonly agreeable' way to promote environment protection than casting soup to Mona Lisa?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePsilynut2
Stranger

Registered: 04/28/17
Posts: 5,117
Last seen: 6 hours, 6 minutes
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: iggyhiggy]
    #28145549 - 01/18/23 07:37 AM (1 year, 9 days ago)

If you care about the environment  buy a hunting license.  Join the Rocky Mountain elk society . You don't have to go hunting or even leave your house but it's pretty much the only thing funding land conservation these days . Protecting the environment starts with keeping wild places wild .


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKryptos
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,258
Last seen: 9 hours, 39 minutes
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: iggyhiggy]
    #28145590 - 01/18/23 08:07 AM (1 year, 9 days ago)

Quote:

iggyhiggy said:
My point and question could in the end be reduced to this:
can we find a more effective and moreover 'commonly agreeable' way to promote environment protection than casting soup to Mona Lisa?




Yeah, probably.

Why bother, though? It works.

I also think that anyone so concerned with the "destruction" of "culture" should really have a think about why they look at this situation and find deeper concern with soup on art than they do with poison in the air and water, but not many are ready for that sort of self reflection.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineiggyhiggy
Stranger
Registered: 03/30/21
Posts: 333
Last seen: 7 months, 13 days
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: Psilynut2]
    #28146823 - 01/19/23 12:05 AM (1 year, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
If you care about the environment  buy a hunting license.  Join the Rocky Mountain elk society . You don't have to go hunting or even leave your house but it's pretty much the only thing funding land conservation these days . Protecting the environment starts with keeping wild places wild .





I don't agree.
First, i live in the middle of Mediterranean area, there also is wild to protect here, not just rocky mountains. I don'n know what elk society is, but i think aside protecting the wild there is to re-think our behaviour in general, also in anthropized areas. Including (maybe starting from) urbanization.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblenooneman
Male

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: iggyhiggy]
    #28146831 - 01/19/23 12:17 AM (1 year, 8 days ago)

Global warming won't really do very much even if we do nothing about it. It's not going to be the end of the world or anything. That's the problem I have with all this climate change stuff. You're making such a huge deal out of something very minor. Some places will be a little hotter, some will see some more fires, or more floods, but that's about it. It's really not that big of a deal. It's not going to be anything even remotely life threatening.

I feel like the people who are all panicked about it have been sold on this idea that it's going to end life on earth or something when that's just literally not the case at all. It's not even what the straight up science says is going to happen, even in the worst case scenario. Global warming and climate change are very minor, and it's really sad that of all the terrible issues in our world today, people have chosen something incredible inconsequential like this to invest all their time in. There are issues out there that are literally killing people every day, but are we investing all this energy in that? No, we're investing it all in trying to keep summer from being slightly warmer.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineiggyhiggy
Stranger
Registered: 03/30/21
Posts: 333
Last seen: 7 months, 13 days
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: Kryptos]
    #28146836 - 01/19/23 12:25 AM (1 year, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

iggyhiggy said:
My point and question could in the end be reduced to this:
can we find a more effective and moreover 'commonly agreeable' way to promote environment protection than casting soup to Mona Lisa?




Yeah, probably.

Why bother, though? It works.

I also think that anyone so concerned with the "destruction" of "culture" should really have a think about why they look at this situation and find deeper concern with soup on art than they do with poison in the air and water, but not many are ready for that sort of self reflection.




TBH, i don't feel like it's working well, at least here where i live.
Quite the opposite.

And being concerned with destruction of culture doesn't imply that this concern is deeper than the concern for environment destruction.
I actually agree that there is a sort of 'hierarchy of concern' and the environmental one should top the art one.

On the other hand, i don't think everything is lower in this hierarchy deserves to be sacrified in the name of what's on top: in a reductio ad absurdum reasoning, I also believe that Environment protection tops in hierarchy the life of individual humans (i'm not sure if tops human race as a whole), so would justify murdering. Should we start human sacrifices? I hope not.

I'll also add that culture and art indirectly aid (actually, have potential to aid) protection of environment. But maybe it just works on me.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineiggyhiggy
Stranger
Registered: 03/30/21
Posts: 333
Last seen: 7 months, 13 days
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: nooneman] * 1
    #28146856 - 01/19/23 01:00 AM (1 year, 8 days ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Global warming won't really do very much even if we do nothing about it. It's not going to be the end of the world or anything. That's the problem I have with all this climate change stuff. You're making such a huge deal out of something very minor. Some places will be a little hotter, some will see some more fires, or more floods, but that's about it. It's really not that big of a deal. It's not going to be anything even remotely life threatening.

I feel like the people who are all panicked about it have been sold on this idea that it's going to end life on earth or something when that's just literally not the case at all. It's not even what the straight up science says is going to happen, even in the worst case scenario. Global warming and climate change are very minor, and it's really sad that of all the terrible issues in our world today, people have chosen something incredible inconsequential like this to invest all their time in. There are issues out there that are literally killing people every day, but are we investing all this energy in that? No, we're investing it all in trying to keep summer from being slightly warmer.





Mostly wrong. I only agree on the fact that GW is not threatening life on Earth.
BUT...
1) GW is not the only thing we should be concerned of when speaking about environment. Various forms of pollution are another issue. Ground consumption another one...just the ones coming to my mind in one second...i bet we can find many more
2)even if we just look at GW, it's not so harmless as you depict thogh I agree, not DIRECTLY life threatening. My country is suffering severe water scarcities since a few years. The trend is for worse and this very last year has been and continues to terrible, even during winter.
If you look further, Africa is suffering environmental issues that already sufferedv and keep suffering desertification of giant fertile areas. And here we come to the
3) INDIRECT consequences of GW and environmental issues in general. On the short term they (already) are affecting agriculture and fishing in many areas. this until now has caused worsenig (sometimes lifethreatening in terms of food, access to water,sustenance) of life condition, leading to mass migrations toward industrialzed countries. And this already is having (terrible IMO) political and social consequences.
On the long term I believe it's possible that this situation will lead to really terrible (not just in my opinion) consequences as wars for control of fertile lands and even in industrialzed countries civil wars and dictatorship as a consequence of deterioration of socio-political conditions.
Don't want to seem too alarmistic, but i glimpse the firs symptoms of this in my country


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,470
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: nooneman]
    #28147631 - 01/19/23 03:03 PM (1 year, 8 days ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Global warming won't really do very much even if we do nothing about it. It's not going to be the end of the world or anything. That's the problem I have with all this climate change stuff. You're making such a huge deal out of something very minor. Some places will be a little hotter, some will see some more fires, or more floods, but that's about it. It's really not that big of a deal. It's not going to be anything even remotely life threatening.

I feel like the people who are all panicked about it have been sold on this idea that it's going to end life on earth or something when that's just literally not the case at all. It's not even what the straight up science says is going to happen, even in the worst case scenario. Global warming and climate change are very minor, and it's really sad that of all the terrible issues in our world today, people have chosen something incredible inconsequential like this to invest all their time in. There are issues out there that are literally killing people every day, but are we investing all this energy in that? No, we're investing it all in trying to keep summer from being slightly warmer.



This is a very misinformed post.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKryptos
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,258
Last seen: 9 hours, 39 minutes
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: iggyhiggy]
    #28149762 - 01/20/23 11:42 PM (1 year, 6 days ago)

Quote:

iggyhiggy said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

iggyhiggy said:
My point and question could in the end be reduced to this:
can we find a more effective and moreover 'commonly agreeable' way to promote environment protection than casting soup to Mona Lisa?




Yeah, probably.

Why bother, though? It works.

I also think that anyone so concerned with the "destruction" of "culture" should really have a think about why they look at this situation and find deeper concern with soup on art than they do with poison in the air and water, but not many are ready for that sort of self reflection.




TBH, i don't feel like it's working well, at least here where i live.
Quite the opposite.

And being concerned with destruction of culture doesn't imply that this concern is deeper than the concern for environment destruction.
I actually agree that there is a sort of 'hierarchy of concern' and the environmental one should top the art one.

On the other hand, i don't think everything is lower in this hierarchy deserves to be sacrified in the name of what's on top: in a reductio ad absurdum reasoning, I also believe that Environment protection tops in hierarchy the life of individual humans (i'm not sure if tops human race as a whole), so would justify murdering. Should we start human sacrifices? I hope not.

I'll also add that culture and art indirectly aid (actually, have potential to aid) protection of environment. But maybe it just works on me.




You're talking about it. That means it is working quite well.

Also, "destroy" is a pretty relative term, here. Art restoration is a very well developed science. So the analogy of sacrificing humans to save the climate doesn't really apply here, as you can't really temporarily sacrifice people and then bring them back with a little bit of acetone and a tiny little scraper.

Yet.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKryptos
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,258
Last seen: 9 hours, 39 minutes
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: Enlil]
    #28149769 - 01/20/23 11:47 PM (1 year, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
Global warming won't really do very much even if we do nothing about it. It's not going to be the end of the world or anything. That's the problem I have with all this climate change stuff. You're making such a huge deal out of something very minor. Some places will be a little hotter, some will see some more fires, or more floods, but that's about it. It's really not that big of a deal. It's not going to be anything even remotely life threatening.

I feel like the people who are all panicked about it have been sold on this idea that it's going to end life on earth or something when that's just literally not the case at all. It's not even what the straight up science says is going to happen, even in the worst case scenario. Global warming and climate change are very minor, and it's really sad that of all the terrible issues in our world today, people have chosen something incredible inconsequential like this to invest all their time in. There are issues out there that are literally killing people every day, but are we investing all this energy in that? No, we're investing it all in trying to keep summer from being slightly warmer.



This is a very misinformed post.




Well, technically, no...climate change won't end the planet in a literal way, the planet will be fine. It also probably won't extinguish "life", so...ya know. Technically not "life-threatening". The cockroaches are, after all, still alive. Heck, I would expect some number of humans to survive as well. Probably a few hundred thousand to millions are guaranteed to survive any worldwide catastrophes, short of the world ceasing to exist as a contiguous mass. Going from Information Age to Iron Age, and from 8 billion and counting to the previously mentioned numbers, on the other hand...That might be not so fun.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrian Jones
Club 27
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,340
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: Kryptos]
    #28150186 - 01/21/23 08:13 AM (1 year, 6 days ago)

I never heard the term last generation environmentalist/activist before.

It's good that the seriousness of the issue is being addressed, but "last generation" sounds self important. Our miserable prospects will last quite a while.

If they mean last generation, as in this is the last generation that could possibly alter the course, give them an "A" for effort, but they may be 20 or 40 years too late.

Throwing pea soup on a Van Gough painting has a certain dada/punk flair, but I was more impressed with whoever said Jeff Bezos should buy and then eat the Mona Lisa.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKryptos
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,258
Last seen: 9 hours, 39 minutes
Re: Constructive environmentalism and Last Generation Protests [Re: Brian Jones]
    #28150620 - 01/21/23 01:35 PM (1 year, 6 days ago)

I see a lot of "last generation" stuff in general.

I've also noticed that literally everyone I meet under the age of 25 makes regular suicide jokes, and it seems that everyone of that age group knows at least one person that killed themselves.

While a lot of it may be youthful nihilism, I don't remember anything even remotely similar when I was in my early 20s. We joked about ODs and liver disease when we went drinking, sure, and everyone said die young and leave a pretty corpse, but it feels like there's a lot less hope for the future nowadays.

I doubt genZ is gonna be the last generation, mostly because I also know genZs that are having kids, but it does feel like there is an oncoming seismic shift which will make life radically different, and considering the level of preparation for that shift, it will likely be radically worse. Even if it's going to be limited to the re-settlement of Miami after a few more hurricanes...that would be a pretty goddamn massive project.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Blair Urged To Push Bush on Climate GazzBut 933 2 07/01/05 03:23 AM
by GazzBut
* Iceland protestors call for international protest ekomstop 879 2 02/20/05 07:24 PM
by ekomstop
* Oil, Climate, and Terrorism EchoVortex 1,073 2 09/06/02 06:13 AM
by EchoVortex
* Anti-War Protests Target Wounded at Army Hospital lonestar2004 1,525 12 08/25/05 09:54 AM
by lonestar2004
* Consensus grows on climate change
( 1 2 all )
Tao 3,357 28 03/07/06 06:55 PM
by RandalFlagg
* climate change adaptation Luddite 1,331 16 03/17/08 07:42 PM
by fireworks_god
* BUSH ADMITS CLIMATE CHANGE IS MANMADE
( 1 2 3 4 all )
1stimer 4,899 70 07/11/05 12:09 AM
by IsaacHunt
* US climate policy Xlea321 802 11 01/12/04 05:09 PM
by d33p

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
768 topic views. 1 members, 6 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.022 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 12 queries.