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Offlinekilgore_trout
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buddhism and logic
    #2814256 - 06/21/04 03:54 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

i have been told that some buddhists hold that something can be somewhere and not be there at the same time. Can someone explain this? i'm not asking for a quantum mechanics explanation either, i already know that one.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #2814286 - 06/21/04 04:01 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Look in the mirror.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlinedeff
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: psyka]
    #2814359 - 06/21/04 04:24 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Very good example :smile:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #2814460 - 06/21/04 05:10 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

are you referring to voidness as an essential property of form?

do you have any reference to a passage?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2814591 - 06/21/04 05:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

could possibly be refering to how reality is an illusion, yet also must be dealt with as real...

suffering is an illusion, but we still experience it, for example

just one possibilty


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #2816134 - 06/22/04 05:26 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

"by trancending the sphere of infinite consciousness, realizing, "there is no thing", one enters and abides in the sphere of nothingness. that is the sixth"
~guatama buddha, mahandana sutra (the great discourse on origination)

The unity experience of enlightenment alone does not adress the issue of infinity. the infinity experience of enlightenment does not alone adress the issue of unity. yes they have been experienced, but the mind still cannot grasp them on an intelectual basis. that is because it is still trying to percieve something. something that in fact was neither experienced nor had an experiencer to experience it. no matter how small you make a dote, it still has an inside, an outside, a left, a right, an up, a down. there is still seperation. the only way this can be resolved is in the experience of nothingness. all of the great masters have had this experience and this is where the communication of the experience cannot be shared. from the moment this nothingness is experienced, you have taken the first step away from it. you are no longer in the nothingness, period! the next is analyzing the experience. the next is trying to describe it. by now, you are four steps away from the non-experience of nothingness, an unfathomable distance from the source. one must now go beyond enlightenment ito the sphere of nothingness.

"maneesha, beyond enlightenment is only beyond-ness, enlightenment is the last host. beyond it, all boundaries disappear, all experiences disappear. experience becomes its utmost in enlightenment; it is the very peak of all that is beautiful, of all that is immortal, of all that is blissful - but it is an experience. beyond enlightenment there is no experience at all, because the experiencer has disappeared. enlightenment is not only the peak of experience, it is also the finest definition of your being. beyond it there is only nothingness; you will not come again to a point which has to be trancended. experience, experiencer, enlightenment - all have been left behind. you are apart of the tremendous nothingness that is infinite. this is nothingness out of which the whole existance comes, the womb; and this is the nothingness in which all existance disappears."
~bhagwan shree rajneesh




i thought this might be appropriate for you kilgore trout.

peace and understanding
Casil


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: Todcasil]
    #2816343 - 06/22/04 08:45 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

todcasil;

you can't riddle this.
they are talking about Jhanas - there is a Yahoo group on jhanas or you might find a local meditation group that is informed.

what is being refered to is a transition between states of absorption.

The whole mind is absorbed in the object.
(the rest cannot be discussed - you have to go there - then you can point to it with words and others who have recnetly returned will go "yeah!" those that have been away long will not remember.
hence meditation is a daily practice to re-connect with the unbounded - the undescribable - which means you cannot draw a circle around this with words - you can chose some words carefully and just point at it)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: Todcasil]
    #2816658 - 06/22/04 11:26 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

"...enlightenment is the last host. beyond it, all boundaries disappear... However, none of that compares to owning 18 Rolls Royces, plenty of automatic weapons and banging tons of young female devotees. That is really where it's at!'

~bhagwan shree rajneesh


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSource
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: Swami]
    #2816675 - 06/22/04 11:35 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

"...oh yeah, and spiking the local salad bar with salmonella. Ha ha haaa...good times."

~bhagwan shree rajneesh


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: Swami]
    #2816677 - 06/22/04 11:35 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

some of us are out of control
like torn rags
in a hurricane


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2817103 - 06/22/04 02:40 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

i want riddling anything redgreenvines, i just thought some of that was appropriate, all are quotes, though im unsure of the seconds source. i guess im sorry. ill leave this thread to the wise.

peace


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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OfflineSource
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: Todcasil]
    #2817228 - 06/22/04 03:18 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I've read some of bhagwan shree rajneesh's stuff and it's pretty right on. I was surprised myself when I learned a little bit more about the man and his commune.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: Source]
    #2817869 - 06/22/04 06:33 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

communes scare me
i can live better in a city
how can you escape the domination in a commune


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #2820030 - 06/23/04 06:07 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

To fully grasp the nature of the one, you must break it into many. To fully grasp the nature of the many you must first fully grasp the nature of the whole. the nature of being and/or non being lies in the middle of this paradox, and so does the answer to your question.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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OfflinePedM
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #2820669 - 06/23/04 01:36 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Kilgore Trout,

If you really want to explore this view, you will find everything you need to know in the book Heart of Wisdom by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. It is a commentary on the Heart Sutra, in which the nature of emptiness is presented by the Buddhas to the people of India at that time. "Form is Emptiness, and likewise Emptiness is also Form. There is no thing that is not emptiness, and there is no thing that is without Form." It is a view that acts as the basis for much of Buddha's teaching, including the most central teaching which tells us that there is no inherent self to cherish above others, and therefore no actual obstruction between us and our compassion.

You can find this book Here.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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Offlineeve69
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Re: buddhism and logic [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #2827868 - 06/25/04 01:45 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Obviously, the question above is one that can't be answered simply since many other complete works do so. Any simple explanation will be full of holes, and not really worthwhile, yet

the basic premise is that there is no literal existance for anything, based upon direct experience and the twelve links of dependence.

Based upon direct experience one sees a cat, and yet the cat moves, it loses hair, it grows fat, it does many diferent actions, it gives birth, it dies. In all these things one wonders which is the defining moment of cat. Even what seems catness when it hunts is different from catness when it is merely eating a bowl of catfood. Almost like Heisenberg's Uncertainty at being able to get a grasp of the entire wave form of a particle, how one remains uncertain of the nature of the particle based upon methods of observation which themselves are faulty and change the observed, almost in this very way, the links of causation of observation themselves are flawed. Furthermore, if one dissects a cat to find it then the cat dies and is no longer there. Moreover if one looks through a microscope at a cat and observes its DNA is this also the cat? Any more than the cat at play? One can observe the cat and never find it when the cat is looked into. Finally, when one observes the cat one ultimately merely finds the observer, the Dharmakaya, as the observer, observed and process of observation, and this Dharmakaya is free of all conventionality and relativism.

On the other hand, one can look with the intellect at the links of dependence and see that since everything depends on everything else for it's conventional shape, therefore all things at once define each thing in turn, thus subtracting the catness from the cat, for instance a cat is not a dog, because we know what cats and dogs are, however, the causal factors of catness depend on such mundane things as gravity, evolution, the Big Bang, and so many other factors that also in this sense a cat simply cannot exist, except in the most superficial observation.

So what does exist? The dharmakaya only, all else is nothing at all! This is an attempt at something very complicated, and yet through meditation very simple.


--------------------
...or something







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