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OfflineFunnyFungiName
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Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok?
    #28135656 - 01/11/23 05:10 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

In order to track down the source of my spawn comtams I left sitting for a month 6 jars of wbs quarts and 15 no pour agars in 1/2 pint mason jars. All wide mouth, some plastic, some metal, all polyfil filters.

After one month all agar still look good as new, but 3 of my wbs jars have contams. 2 have a dirty grainy residue that the wbs leaves on the glass, one has a black mold.

Any idea why some of my wbs jars are going bad while agar and LCs in the same jars/lids/filters are fine?

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FunnyFungiName]
    #28135662 - 01/11/23 05:16 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

it isnt the jar.  id bet my life savings on that.  its the wbs.  bodhi always said theres no such thing as sterile grain and as time goes on, i realize the wisdom of that grouchy sonofabitch.

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OfflineFunnyFungiName
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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #28135680 - 01/11/23 05:31 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

BeefSupremeJr said:
it isnt the jar.  id bet my life savings on that.  its the wbs.  bodhi always said theres no such thing as sterile grain and as time goes on, i realize the wisdom of that grouchy sonofabitch.




I usually make my grains days or a week before I use them so maybe that is the issue.

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OnlineBeefSupremeJr
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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FunnyFungiName]
    #28135684 - 01/11/23 05:34 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

probably not.  ive had jars sit around for a weeks.
whats your prep procedure?  how long is your pc cycle? what pressure?

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OfflineFunnyFungiName
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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #28135699 - 01/11/23 05:48 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

I bring my wbs to a boil, simmer 5 mins, drain for 45, pc 2 hours at 15 psi.

Edited by FunnyFungiName (01/11/23 05:48 PM)

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OnlineBeefSupremeJr
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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FunnyFungiName] * 1
    #28135707 - 01/11/23 05:51 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

hmm.  i dunno.  i dont use wbs but id get in the habit of using it pretty readily once its prepped.  a month is way too long.  as ive said theres no such thing as sterile grain so its a foot race between our culture and the dormant endospores latent in the grain after its pc.

thats also why spores to grain is invariably a recipe for contam..

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: BeefSupremeJr] * 2
    #28135745 - 01/11/23 06:13 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Mold wouldn’t survive the pc cycle. You may need to inspect your lids/filters and make sure everything is properly done and you’re getting a seal with your lids. May even try wrapping around them a couple times with cling or something to help block out contaminants.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: Southerner]
    #28135755 - 01/11/23 06:19 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

mold *spores* could totally survive a pc cycle in grain.  it makes sense that you wouldnt see it do anything for a month.

whats your lid situation?

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #28135783 - 01/11/23 06:44 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Try prepping it without the boil for 5 minutes.


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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: JHOVA] * 2
    #28135800 - 01/11/23 06:53 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Agar and LC are simply easier for the heat to penetrate. That is why grains are cooked at 2 hours typically while agar and LC one can even get away with 15-30 minutes.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FunnyFungiName] * 1
    #28135803 - 01/11/23 06:55 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Do you vent your PC? I was losing most of my jars to mold weeks after prep until I started venting for 15-20 mins.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FlawdaKraka]
    #28135812 - 01/11/23 07:02 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

do what? venting?

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OfflineFlawdaKraka
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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: BeefSupremeJr] * 2
    #28135839 - 01/11/23 07:17 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

It's the only thing that changed in my prep. 15-20 mins of venting before bringing it up to pressure.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FlawdaKraka]
    #28135844 - 01/11/23 07:19 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

with all due respect, that isnt a thing

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: BeefSupremeJr] * 1
    #28135847 - 01/11/23 07:21 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

I had a forgotten wbs grain jar sit for about 6 months. No contams. The grain had begun drying out though.

The jar had a plain metal lid and a single hole with poly-fil filter.

I don’t think it’s the prep.  Either the sterilization is bad, the handling is bad, the filter is bad, or the seal on the jar is bad.

What is the filter material?
What kind of lids are you using?
Are you running injection ports? Are they lose or deteriorating?

Does your pc have a gauge or are you assuming 15psi?
What is the elevation?

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: BeefSupremeJr] * 3
    #28135848 - 01/11/23 07:22 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)


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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: Mojo]
    #28135860 - 01/11/23 07:28 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Same.  I have had jars of wheat sit for months without contaminating, but as a rule, I never assume grains to be sterile. 

Anyway, I concur.  There's something wrong with either the hardware or the process.  And pictures would really help.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: JHOVA] * 1
    #28135865 - 01/11/23 07:29 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Lids are a mix some plastic some metal.
Quote:

JHOVA said:
Try prepping it without the boil for 5 minutes.




Im going to stop the boiling and try a 12-24 hour soak.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: BeefSupremeJr] * 2
    #28135866 - 01/11/23 07:29 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

BeefSupremeJr said:
with all due respect, that isnt a thing




It is a thing. The USDA recommends it for all canning and it is in the instruction manual for All American sterilizers.

Many vintage canners were sealed similar to AA sterilizers, so perhaps there was a case to be made for displacing the “dry” air trapped inside the canner with steam. 

These days no canners on the market are sealed and all of them vent to maintain pressure so it hardly seems necessary if you are running a shake weight…

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FlawdaKraka] * 3
    #28135868 - 01/11/23 07:31 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

FlawdaKraka said:
OK

The Importance of Venting a Pressure Cooker or Autoclave




huh! well, I'll be damned.  I will have to read this. I have never done this. I stand corrected, sir..
I've never seen it in the instruction manual for my unit but maybe I better read it again

Edited by BeefSupremeJr (01/11/23 07:32 PM)

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #28135888 - 01/11/23 07:41 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

so prestos with jiggleweights vent themselves.  So the question is, OP, what kind of pc you using?

jiggle or toggle?

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: BeefSupremeJr] * 1
    #28135901 - 01/11/23 07:51 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Mine has a jiggle weight and pressure gauge. I usually vent about 15 mins.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FunnyFungiName] * 1
    #28135914 - 01/11/23 07:57 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

lid pics?

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FunnyFungiName] * 1
    #28135918 - 01/11/23 07:59 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Check your lids for damage, check/replace the poly as needed.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FlawdaKraka] * 3
    #28135929 - 01/11/23 08:05 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Venting is definitely a thing. Yes, vented pressure cookers will naturally vent themselves but you wouldn't really know when exactly it has been fully vented. You could technically under sterilize in this case if you followed typical times.

If the jars were never opened after pressure cooking I would say you either aren't getting full sterilization or something is screwy with your lids.

What elevation are you at?

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: Lucifer944] * 1
    #28135983 - 01/11/23 08:39 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

I believe I am at high elevation. Lids are just metal or plastics stuffed tight with polyfil.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FunnyFungiName]
    #28135991 - 01/11/23 08:45 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

im not sure i can help you anymore here but i feel like wbs seems to contam more than other grains.  i like wheat

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OfflineFlawdaKraka
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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FunnyFungiName] * 1
    #28135999 - 01/11/23 08:51 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Look around for time adjustments for higher elevations, idk what they are, but you'll need to increase times from what they are at sea level.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FlawdaKraka]
    #28136005 - 01/11/23 08:53 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Im goin to give the no cook prep a go and see what happens. My wbs prep before going in the pc seems to be the odd ball out in comparison to the technique of others.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FunnyFungiName] * 1
    #28136157 - 01/12/23 12:56 AM (2 years, 5 days ago)

I've been using Hamloaf's WBS prep and it works really well for me so far.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24952939/fpart/1/vc/1

My last set of WBS jars, I Used FooMans prep method.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8508523

The jars made it to their shoeboxes and are now colonizing. They looked great when finished but were slower. I'm convinced it was due to cooler temps, or could have been on the drier side of ideal. Maybe it was due to the genetics of what I am running?

I'm favoring the Hamloaf WBS tek, but as a noob, I'm just happy to be getting shit to the finish line.


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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: ClusterB]
    #28136280 - 01/12/23 07:00 AM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

ClusterB said:
I've been using Hamloaf's WBS prep and it works really well for me so far.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24952939/fpart/1/vc/1

My last set of WBS jars, I Used FooMans prep method.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8508523

The jars made it to their shoeboxes and are now colonizing. They looked great when finished but were slower. I'm convinced it was due to cooler temps, or could have been on the drier side of ideal. Maybe it was due to the genetics of what I am running?

I'm favoring the Hamloaf WBS tek, but as a noob, I'm just happy to be getting shit to the finish line.




Yeah Im following Hamloaf’s tek right now, but im considering trying a method without the boil such as SpitballJedi where it soaks 12-24 hours then gets drained before loading up the jars.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: BeefSupremeJr] * 1
    #28136363 - 01/12/23 08:42 AM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

BeefSupremeJr said:
lid pics?



Lids are the same on my wbs as they are on my agar jars. I have zero problems with contams on agar.


Edited by FunnyFungiName (01/12/23 08:42 AM)

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FunnyFungiName] * 2
    #28136421 - 01/12/23 09:37 AM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Here's a chart from AA for pressure to sterilize at elevation, you never did say what your elevation is. But these are the PSI to reach sterilization at normal times.



If you can't reach this pressure for your elevation, you'll need to increase time. Here's a good link for info.

PCing at altitude

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FlawdaKraka] * 2
    #28136440 - 01/12/23 09:57 AM (2 years, 5 days ago)

That link is a fantastic resource. At nearly 6K' I have always just increased time since all I have are prestos

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FlawdaKraka] * 2
    #28136522 - 01/12/23 11:11 AM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

FlawdaKraka said:
Here's a chart from AA for pressure to sterilize at elevation, you never did say what your elevation is. But these are the PSI to reach sterilization at normal times.



If you can't reach this pressure for your elevation, you'll need to increase time. Here's a good link for info.

PCing at altitude




Thank you that is very useful. I am at about 1800 above sea level, but I am usually over 15psi for most of a cycle.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: BeefSupremeJr] * 1
    #28136567 - 01/12/23 11:56 AM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

BeefSupremeJr said:
so prestos with jiggleweights vent themselves.




Not sure I'm following you there.

This is the removable weight, right?

You gotta take it off until a steady flow of steam emerges from the stem, which seems like the opposite of self-venting to me.

The extra-sure version is just letting that process go on for 15 minutes before putting the weight on. I find that it doesn't even add any extra time to the cycle.


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Edited by B Traven (01/12/23 11:58 AM)

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #28136584 - 01/12/23 12:11 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
Quote:

BeefSupremeJr said:
so prestos with jiggleweights vent themselves.




Not sure I'm following you there.

This is the removable weight, right?

You gotta take it off until a steady flow of steam emerges from the stem, which seems like the opposite of self-venting to me.

The extra-sure version is just letting that process go on for 15 minutes before putting the weight on. I find that it doesn't even add any extra time to the cycle.




You're correct, you want leave it off and let it fully vent. Who knows how long it would take to actually self vent, could take hours in which case you wouldn't achieve the highest temperature.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #28136586 - 01/12/23 12:13 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

I vote for the grain not being fully sterilized, as well.

If it were an issue with the lids, I'd also expect the contamination to be clustered at the top of the grain. And take on a specific and obvious character, like for instance little tufts of green trich right out the starting gate.

I also subscribe to the belief that no grain is truly fully sterile.

I try to use my jars as soon as possible after PC'ing, ideally the very next day. I think there are a number of cases where some spores in the jar might germinate and take over if given enough time, but get nowhere once the myc has taken hold.

My contamination rates definitely dropped a bit once I stopped letting jars sit around before inoculation.


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Edited by B Traven (01/12/23 12:14 PM)

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #28136596 - 01/12/23 12:25 PM (2 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
I vote for the grain not being fully sterilized, as well.

If it were an issue with the lids, I'd also expect the contamination to be clustered at the top of the grain. And take on a specific and obvious character, like for instance little tufts of green trich right out the starting gate.

I also subscribe to the belief that no grain is truly fully sterile.

I try to use my jars as soon as possible after PC'ing, ideally the very next day. I think there are a number of cases where some spores in the jar might germinate and take over if given enough time, but get nowhere once the myc has taken hold.

My contamination rates definitely dropped a bit once I stopped letting jars sit around before inoculation.




Im almost positive that the jars sitting too long is my issue.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FunnyFungiName]
    #28187042 - 02/14/23 11:45 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

FunnyFungiName said:
I bring my wbs to a boil, simmer 5 mins, drain for 45, pc 2 hours at 15 psi.




After reading a ton of wbs teks and oat teks it seems maybe my wbs jars were getting contams because they weren’t hydrated well enough.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FunnyFungiName]
    #28187067 - 02/14/23 12:13 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

i use bird seed and i live at 5000 ft. ive soaked and simmered, soaked only, simmered only, and done no-prep. never made a difference with contam. but i vent for 20, PC for 120, and i always inoculate the morning after. seems to be working ok


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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: FunnyFungiName] * 1
    #28187070 - 02/14/23 12:17 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

From USDA
Most yeasts and molds are heat-sensitive and destroyed by heat treatments at temperatures of 140-160°F (60-71°C). Some molds make heat-resistant spores, however, and can survive heat treatments in pickled vegetable products. These molds, however, require oxygen to grow. When jars or containers of thermally processed acidified vegetables are improperly sealed or cracked, oxygen may get in. Under these conditions, spores that survived heat treatment may germinate and grow on the surface of the liquid inside the container where air is present. These molds can consume the acid present in these products, causing the pH to rise above 4.6, which in turn can lead to the growth of C. botulinum and potentially the production of deadly botulinum toxin. Therefore, it is very important to make sure that containers of acidified foods are properly sealed.
There are relatively few spore-forming microorganisms which can grow without oxygen and at pH values below 4.6 (see Chapter 10, Table 10.1). One such organism is a mold named Byssochlamys fulva. This organism has been responsible for the spoilage of thermally processed canned fruits. It is quite heat-resistant, requiring about 1 minute at boiling temperature to kill cells of the organism, and may survive the heat treatment. Fortunately, this mold has not been reported to be a problem in acidified vegetable foods. When spoilage of thermally processed acidified food products does occur, it is usually because some jars or containers were not heated for the required time at the correct temperature.
Tried finding something about what temp kills spores of Byssochlamys fulva but for a quick search all the studies mentioned how sme strains can survive pasteurization at 80c
Molds and mold spores are killed at very low temps
Comped to bacterial endoscopes, so the mold got in there after the pc cycle, as far as the mold goes.

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OfflineFunnyFungiName
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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: bakedbeings]
    #28187078 - 02/14/23 12:33 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bakedbeings said:
i use bird seed and i live at 5000 ft. ive soaked and simmered, soaked only, simmered only, and done no-prep. never made a difference with contam. but i vent for 20, PC for 120, and i always inoculate the morning after. seems to be working ok




Yeah I had good results with the overnight soak, but recently I was doing a 5 minute boil at 200 degrees with no soak. I think I need to to simmer longer or go back to the soak.

Also I have a 50lb bag of oats so Im going to see how that works out.

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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: BeefSupremeJr] * 1
    #28187080 - 02/14/23 12:34 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BeefSupremeJr said:
it isnt the jar.  id bet my life savings on that.  its the wbs.  bodhi always said theres no such thing as sterile grain and as time goes on, i realize the wisdom of that grouchy sonofabitch.



Yeah but that's really only bacterial endospores. If mold is getting in, it's gotta be the filters. Mold dies very quickly in a pc cycle, so it must be coming in post pc cycle.


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Re: Unused grain jars contam, but agar ok? [Re: HappinessStan]
    #28187090 - 02/14/23 12:43 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HappinessStan said:
Quote:

BeefSupremeJr said:
it isnt the jar.  id bet my life savings on that.  its the wbs.  bodhi always said theres no such thing as sterile grain and as time goes on, i realize the wisdom of that grouchy sonofabitch.



Yeah but that's really only bacterial endospores. If mold is getting in, it's gotta be the filters. Mold dies very quickly in a pc cycle, so it must be coming in post pc cycle.




Same lids/filters are being used for agar and lc with no issue.

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