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InvisibleAsante
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The hidden cost of Bitcoin * 1
    #28133266 - 01/10/23 07:37 AM (1 year, 18 days ago)

Snap out of your bitchcoin euphoria people :chancla:


Quote:

According to Digiconomist, as of Sept. 15, 2022, a single bitcoin transaction required 1,390.49 kWh, the equivalent of power consumption of an average U.S. household over nearly 48 days.




Suppose you buy 1 satoshi, get cold feet and sell it again.

Congratulations! You just wasted 2781 kWh.

This represents 2,391,800 kcal of energy

it cost the world 240 liter = 63 gallons of oil to generate that energy.

In agriculture it could have generated enough food to sustain 1 human for 100 days at 2400 kcal a day.

trees.org could have taken the $1000 electricity cost and planted 4,000 fruit trees which is the onset of a whole foresrt garden.

It didnt happen,

You flipped a satoshi back and forth, so you could cash out another investor's money before he could..





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OfflineManianFHS
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Re: The hidden cost of Bitcoin [Re: Asante]
    #28133850 - 01/10/23 02:48 PM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Holy crap! That is so crazy - which is the coin that doesn’t have such an impact, wasn’t in XLM, or ADA?


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notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

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OfflineManianFHS
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Re: The hidden cost of Bitcoin [Re: ManianFH]
    #28133856 - 01/10/23 02:53 PM (1 year, 17 days ago)

It takes 32 kWh to charge my car, at .16/kWh (home electricity) that is $5.12

So one bitcoin transaction at .16/kWh would cost $222.49

How is that possible, wouldn’t that just be the cost of the transaction in BTC? Who eats that transaction cost in energy?


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notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."


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OnlinegeokillsA
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Re: The hidden cost of Bitcoin [Re: ManianFH] * 1
    #28133886 - 01/10/23 03:18 PM (1 year, 17 days ago)

There are a lot of assumptions baked into the cost calculations of a cryptocurrency transaction.  I'm not one to dig too deep into the minutiae on this subject, suffice it to say that Bitcoin's Proof of Work algorithm does result in the use of electricity to secure the network in a way that makes it one of if not the only blockchain that achieves both an extremely high level of security at the same time that it also achieves an extremely high level of decentralization.  These do come at a cost, namely with regard to transaction speed but also due to the associated cost of using electricity to process a large number of computerized mathematical computations.

It would be worth highlighting that if each bitcoin transaction carried a true cost of $222.49, there would not be so many people mining it for so long.  There is nuance behind the numbers, in that bitcoin miners tend to source electricity from far cheaper, and often renewable sources.  This of course isn't always the case, but I do speak from experience here, as I myself have mined cryptocurrency, and I wouldn't have been compelled to do so if I didn't produce surplus green energy via my own means.


PatrickKn also added the following in a related Pub thread:
Quote:

PatrickKn said:
That's not really how it works though. If you're transferring 1 satoshi, it's not using that much energy whatsoever, and your handling of it isn't consuming that much energy. A single block may contain 2000 transactions on layer one, which themselves may contain upwards of a million transactions on a layer two network.

How much energy is consumed processing millions of dollar based transactions, to include the parts which are not automated and are handled by humans who themselves require energy resources?

Not to say I don't think bitcoin could be more energy efficient, it can. However you're not communicating the full picture of what happens in that costly transaction.

I'm not overtly anti-dollar and don't think bitcoin itself is an adequate replacement for existing currencies, merely pointing out that this energy argument is a distorted view of things.




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OfflineManianFHS
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Re: The hidden cost of Bitcoin [Re: geokills] * 1
    #28139704 - 01/14/23 03:52 PM (1 year, 13 days ago)

Heard - and yes this is what I thought as well, a lot of mining operations have to be working from big solar grids - which I guess the argument could be made that the energy produced from that could be put to better use. Something about the energy consumption comparisons doesnt equate for me still

I also think there is an argument to be made that if so much energy has been used to keep this thing going all these years what would be the point of pivoting from that commitment. There has to be a reason BTC is still at the top of the mountain, and maybe you touched on it that other crypto simply isnt as secure/decentralized. The more decentralized BTC becomes, as I would assume over time it will - the more likely the currency is to remain at the forefront of the crypto movement.


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notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."


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OnlinegeokillsA
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Re: The hidden cost of Bitcoin [Re: ManianFH] * 1
    #28139765 - 01/14/23 04:25 PM (1 year, 13 days ago)

Someone posted this website in another thread and it covers this subject and then some: https://endthefud.org/

Until battery or transmission technology can improve in a big way, such that large amounts of energy can be easily moved from one location to another, there are some geographic areas that simply cannot make use of their power generation potential.  A typical example of this are large hydroelectric systems, particularly in China, that during the wet season overproduce vast amounts of previously unconsumable power.  Spinning up some mining machines brings additional economic utility to these producers that would otherwise have nothing to do with the energy of all that water flowing through their system during the seasonal highs.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: The hidden cost of Bitcoin [Re: geokills]
    #28140608 - 01/15/23 04:50 AM (1 year, 13 days ago)

They could convert surplus electricity into fertilizer, literally made from power, air and water, or an aluminium plant if they have bauxite. many industries crucially depend on electricity.

You could set up a datacenter.

Even still, its hard to justify mining bitcoin when maintaining a network like stellar's costs 100x less per transaction.


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Offlinehuey.bluey
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Re: The hidden cost of Bitcoin [Re: Asante] * 1
    #28422811 - 08/06/23 08:53 AM (5 months, 20 days ago)

More importantly the transactions are easily backtracked to you unless you waste more gas to chuck them into a mixer. I never use BTC I use XMR instead, its 2023 man get with the cryptographically secure times.


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Invisiblemaensel
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Re: The hidden cost of Bitcoin [Re: Asante]
    #28425063 - 08/07/23 09:54 PM (5 months, 18 days ago)

bitcoin is digital nothingness.. as long as casino is open casino chips are also money. THINK!


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Offlinebio_alchemist
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Re: The hidden cost of Bitcoin [Re: maensel] * 1
    #28486606 - 09/29/23 09:35 AM (3 months, 28 days ago)

Bitcoin does suck but not for this reason. %76 of BTC is mined with renewable energy not that that matters either. Considering most of us burn electricity and run our GPUs for gaming and other selfish things besides providing economic freedom to the world.

Its superior to credit cards, venmo and all other fiat based digital payment methods because it is DECENTRALIZED.
No one can manipulate or control it because of this siiik tech. There will only ever be 21 million bitcoin and there is nothing anyone can do about that. (which will impact mining in some way too when the limit is reached) anything small with a finite amount in existence is a reasonable canidate for use as a currency.

What makes it terrible is that its completely public. And Wildly expensive to use. Crippling gas fees. The government or anyone else that has your btc address for that matter. Can see exactly how much you have. Where it came from and monitor every transaction you ever make
Not only that but since individual bitcoins are NOT fungible just like serialized Fiat Dollars. You could accidentally end up with a dirty coin that was involved in a crime and have it seized by the cops when you try to use it at a business or exchange.

Its how the government monitors cash activity by seeing whos account an individual serialized bill is withdrawn from and who later deposits the same bill.

Monero on the other hand is completely Fungible. Any 2 coins are completely indistinguishable one one another. The monero Blockchain also conceals both parties involved in a transaction as well as the amount of monero being moved in a transaction.
It costs less than a penny to send any amount pretty much anywhere as opposed to BTC's $20+ Gas Fees.
It is optomized for mining with CPUS so you can not use an asic miner and there is no massive chinese farms with a monopoly on the hash rate. More decentralized = more secure.

Thats why Monero is the only crypto currency people actually use for all sorts of transactions. Especially ones where privacy is critical.

Plus no amount of government force or Violence can move your Monero. That is powerful. Only you, the seed holder has authority.

It makes the IRS nervous as they have a half a billion dollar bounty out for anyone who can help them trace XMR transactions.

Considering US Fiat dollars have completely crashed by %99+ since its release  in 1935 pretty much anything is a better alternative. Holding USD is just pissing away your hard earned value into the wind IMO


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Offlinecuriouscubes
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Re: The hidden cost of Bitcoin [Re: ManianFH]
    #28515613 - 10/23/23 06:03 PM (3 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

ManianFH said:
It takes 32 kWh to charge my car, at .16/kWh (home electricity) that is $5.12

So one bitcoin transaction at .16/kWh would cost $222.49

How is that possible, wouldn’t that just be the cost of the transaction in BTC? Who eats that transaction cost in energy?




Very interesting to me. I'm thinking maybe that it's the energy required to 'mine' a new btc, versus a transaction between two users of an existing btc.

Crypto exchanges would be eating heavy amounts of energy bills if this was the case per transaction. Some do thousands of transactions a day.


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