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Enkidu
"No-Such-Person"


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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Smellyhobbit] 1
#28128102 - 01/06/23 07:53 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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I just never really thought about that as being part of what a Christian is, though you saying it reminded me of an explanation I've received from a Christian and someone who did view it that way
I think my view of Christianity is far from what the actual accepted view of Christianity is
-------------------- Within You , Without You
      
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Smellyhobbit
Actual Retard



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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Enkidu] 1
#28128104 - 01/06/23 07:54 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enkidu said: If I believe you can read the Bible and reject anything you choose and accept only what you agree with as truth, would you be allowed to be considered a Christian or is that not a Christian and who decides ?
People have been doing that for a long long time in churches across the globe. I don’t particularly like church for that very reason. Church isn’t Christianity. It’s just a place people form communities around it.
People are fallible. All of them. Organized religion isn’t to be trusted.
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Smellyhobbit
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Enkidu]
#28128109 - 01/06/23 07:57 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enkidu said: I just never really thought about that as being part of what a Christian is, though you saying it reminded me of an explanation I've received from a Christian and someone who did view it that way
I think my view of Christianity is far from what the actual accepted view of Christianity is
It is the fundamental element of Christianity as a religion. It’s based on Christ, hence the name. Jesus Christ isn’t just like the central person around which the story takes place, he IS the basis of the religion.
Honestly at this point in my life a lot of Christians might not recognize all of what I have to say either. I find a lot of agreement with Christians who recognized the corruption in churches and don’t go anymore.
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Enkidu
"No-Such-Person"


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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Smellyhobbit] 1
#28128132 - 01/06/23 08:06 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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I've always viewed Christianity as being ancient wisdom and teachings that have been touched by the hands of man for thousands of years leading to corruption
And that it's up to the individual to read the words and decide for themselves what they believe to be true to their soul and what is the effect of the corruption of man
It seemed to me part of the issue is it can be helpful to have someone wiser with a better understanding help you decipher the meaning of ancient wisdom
But then there lies the ability for corruption
And that it is the people telling everyone what and how to interpret the words that lead to corruption
Hence why someone might kill all the homosexuals in the name of their religion etc
And that in the past these were also used as laws of the land etc
But that if you can get through all of that chum bucket there is still ancient wisdom to be collected
And I say that having never really tried to read the Bible and see what it says.
The teachings of Jesus didn't seem all that bad from what little I have seen
-------------------- Within You , Without You
      
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,431
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: tyrannicalrex]
#28128141 - 01/06/23 08:09 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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tyrannicalrex said: Popular opinion: I hope everyone feeling sick or down feels better!
What is the picture of round yellow stuff?
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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Smellyhobbit
Actual Retard



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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Enkidu]
#28128177 - 01/06/23 08:25 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Enkidu, I have never agreed so hard with someone about my faith who wasn’t actively participating in it. That sums up so many of my feelings.
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Jean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,185
Loc: New Mexico, USA
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Smellyhobbit]
#28128190 - 01/06/23 08:33 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Smellyhobbit said:
Quote:
trees said:
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Smellyhobbit said: Of course. Absolutely. I said there were evil Christians and wonderful atheists. Being Christian should mean something very specific on its own, but for many people it’s just a word.
But to be a real Christian you have to kill the sinning homosexuals and non belivers, or else youre in violation of the Bible. Thats why its stupid to be Christian because if you adhear to modern laws and customs, then youre going to hell, not heaven, you are in violation of your own religion. So why continue with that BS?
I’ll grab this one. Sorry I am a little medicated at the moment.
“If you adhere to modern laws and customs then you’re going to hell… you are in violation of your own religion.”
Politely, how does this need addressing if you used to be Christian, Picard? You don’t go to heaven or hell based on your acts and deeds. If you did, no one would go to heaven. The - THE - central tenant of Christianity is that you are saved through Christ and Christ alone.
Christianity isn’t Judaism. You don’t earn your way in or flunk out of heaven. It’s literally a “do your best” system.
And Mormons believe that "faith without works is a dead faith", and argues that not only do you need to accept Jesus as the messiah and repent for your sins, but also live a life as close to what the Bible says one should live, or your faith is a false faith, and you won't be admitted into the kingdom of heaven.
In Anabaptist theology, the pathway to salvation is "marked not by a forensic understanding of salvation by 'faith alone', but by the entire process of repentance, self-denial, faith rebirth and obedience." So similar situation with the Mormons, with a much stronger emphasis on faith and salvation can't be real without strict obedience to the customs and rituals of early Christianity.
The Churches of Christ, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints count the act of a water baptism as necessary for salvation.
So what you are claiming is both true and not true, depending on which denomination (i.e. particular interpretation of scripture made under a particular interpretation framework). There are other denominations that tack on behaviors/rituals/works in order to have a true and valid relationship with Christ. As has been discussed here, since these denominations are all interpretations of what is assumed to be the the word of god, how can you say that one is less true than another?
Simply rejecting it, when other denominations have provided biblical scripture as a basis for their interpretations, is logically equivalent to Anabaptists arbitrarily rejecting what you're telling me now.
-------------------- The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,431
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: spirit_shadow]
#28128195 - 01/06/23 08:35 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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I feel that all the positive things I was taught from religion are the things no one follows. Love one another. Only god judges. doing service work.
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,431
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Quote:
Jean-Luc Picard said:
Quote:
Smellyhobbit said:
Quote:
trees said:
Quote:
Smellyhobbit said: Of course. Absolutely. I said there were evil Christians and wonderful atheists. Being Christian should mean something very specific on its own, but for many people it’s just a word.
But to be a real Christian you have to kill the sinning homosexuals and non believers, or else you're in violation of the Bible. Thats why its stupid to be Christian because if you adhear to modern laws and customs, then youre going to hell, not heaven, you are in violation of your own religion. So why continue with that BS?
I’ll grab this one. Sorry I am a little medicated at the moment.
“If you adhere to modern laws and customs then you’re going to hell… you are in violation of your own religion.”
Politely, how does this need addressing if you used to be Christian, Picard? You don’t go to heaven or hell based on your acts and deeds. If you did, no one would go to heaven. The - THE - central tenant of Christianity is that you are saved through Christ and Christ alone.
Christianity isn’t Judaism. You don’t earn your way in or flunk out of heaven. It’s literally a “do your best” system.
And Mormons believe that "faith without works is a dead faith", and argues that not only do you need to accept Jesus as the messiah and repent for your sins, but also live a life as close to what the Bible says one should live, or your faith is a false faith, and you won't be admitted into the kingdom of heaven.
In Anabaptist theology, the pathway to salvation is "marked not by a forensic understanding of salvation by 'faith alone', but by the entire process of repentance, self-denial, faith rebirth and obedience." So similar situation with the Mormons, with a much stronger emphasis on faith and salvation can't be real without strict obedience to the customs and rituals of early Christianity.
The Churches of Christ, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints count the act of a water baptism as necessary for salvation.
So what you are claiming is both true and not true, depending on which denomination (i.e. particular interpretation of scripture made under a particular interpretation framework). There are other denominations that tack on behaviors/rituals/works in order to have a true and valid relationship with Christ. As has been discussed here, since these denominations are all interpretations of what is assumed to be the the word of god, how can you say that one is less true than another?
Simply rejecting it, when other denominations have provided biblical scripture as a basis for their interpretations, is logically equivalent to Anabaptists arbitrarily rejecting what you're telling me now. 
There is a lot lot more in Mormonism in order to achieve salvation/the celestial kingdom
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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Jean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,185
Loc: New Mexico, USA
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Smellyhobbit] 1
#28128206 - 01/06/23 08:41 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Smellyhobbit said: Enkidu, I have never agreed so hard with someone about my faith who wasn’t actively participating in it. That sums up so many of my feelings.
I've also already posted about this as well. If you're telling people they're wrong or mistaken about Christianity, or claiming that certain interpretations of the Bible "isn't christian", but then turn right around and say that it's up to the individual to read the same scripture and make their own interpretation that best fits with their soul, then it seems like you might be contradicting yourself. How do we know where the human error or corruption is?
How do you know that your individual interpretation isn't riddled with tons of error, while those interpretations that you disagree with might contain less error? If that's the case, how can you say with any certainty that anybody's interpretation of the Bible is wrong?
-------------------- The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT
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Smellyhobbit
Actual Retard



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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: spirit_shadow]
#28128209 - 01/06/23 08:43 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Faith without action, it don’t mean a thing
It’s about as useless as a screen door on a submarine
I agree with that, but not in the way that you’re interpreting it. It doesn’t mean you have to do 10 Hail Marys or whatever they’re called and go to church. It means faith IS action. None of us are living in a hole in the ground hooked up to an IV, asleep for our whole lives. Your faith is your behavior, it’s in what you do and how you act daily. I don’t see the two as separate.
Again this is just what is practiced, I’m not trying to preach at you.
The idea in Christianity is that, once you start a relationship with Christ and allow him into you spiritually it will necessitate action and a desire to do what you’re supposed to. It’s part and parcel.
But there’s nothing you’re ever going to do to lose salvation and there’s nothing you’re ever going to do to earn it. That’s the point. It isn’t that you don’t do anything at all, it’s that you’re not measuring your value by what you have or haven’t done, because it’s an unattainable standard.
Besides that, Mormonism isn’t Christian. That’s not a “No true Scotsman” fallacy, either. They were literally fooled by a man with a whole new book. It is a different set of teachings.
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Smellyhobbit
Actual Retard



Registered: 04/01/22
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Quote:
Jean-Luc Picard said:
Quote:
Smellyhobbit said: Enkidu, I have never agreed so hard with someone about my faith who wasn’t actively participating in it. That sums up so many of my feelings.
I've also already posted about this as well. If you're telling people they're wrong or mistaken about Christianity, or claiming that certain interpretations of the Bible "isn't christian", but then turn right around and say that it's up to the individual to read the same scripture and make their own interpretation that best fits with their soul, then it seems like you might be contradicting yourself. How do we know where the human error or corruption is?
How do you know that your individual interpretation isn't riddled with tons of error, while those interpretations that you disagree with might contain less error? If that's the case, how can you say with any certainty that anybody's interpretation of the Bible is wrong?
We might be having two different conversations, then. I’m not contradicting myself, and I didn’t say anything about “true Christians.”
I’m speaking about trees’s misconceptions regarding what people believe at large. Christians don’t want to persecute gays or harm women. They don’t live debauched lives and magically repent right before they die to get into heaven.
It’s just factually incorrect. I wasn’t talking at all about how people SHOULD believe or what’s moral or immoral. Just that he was objectively mistaken about his perceptions.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,431
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Smellyhobbit]
#28128215 - 01/06/23 08:47 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Smellyhobbit said: Faith without action, it don’t mean a thing
It’s about as useless as a screen door on a submarine
I agree with that, but not in the way that you’re interpreting it. It doesn’t mean you have to do 10 Hail Marys or whatever they’re called and go to church. It means faith IS action. None of us are living in a hole in the ground hooked up to an IV, asleep for our whole lives. Your faith is your behavior, it’s in what you do and how you act daily. I don’t see the two as separate.
Again this is just what is practiced, I’m not trying to preach at you.
The idea in Christianity is that, once you start a relationship with Christ and allow him into you spiritually it will necessitate action and a desire to do what you’re supposed to. It’s part and parcel.
But there’s nothing you’re ever going to do to lose salvation and there’s nothing you’re ever going to do to earn it. That’s the point. It isn’t that you don’t do anything at all, it’s that you’re not measuring your value by what you have or haven’t done, because it’s an unattainable standard.
Besides that, Mormonism isn’t Christian. That’s not a “No true Scotsman” fallacy, either. They were literally fooled by a man with a whole new book. It is a different set of teachings.
They believe they are christian because they believe in Christ.
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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Jean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,185
Loc: New Mexico, USA
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: loladoreen] 3
#28128219 - 01/06/23 08:48 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
loladoreen said: I feel that all the positive things I was taught from religion are the things no one follows. Love one another. Only god judges. doing service work.
This is something that really accelerated my departure from Christianity. The vast majority of Christians that I've interacted with over the years were so caught up in homosexuality or metal music or premarital sex and how to force and/or brainwash people into following their biased idea of a "Christian life" that they forget to live by the fundamentals themselves.
-------------------- The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT
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Enkidu
"No-Such-Person"


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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Smellyhobbit] 1
#28128221 - 01/06/23 08:49 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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I've always been confused by having so many different denominations etc in Christianity and disagreement between them
I agree with Lola that what's important is the simple things
Treat others the way you want to be treated, love compassion etc
The only things I have ever learned and know for certainty in life are those very simple truths
Jean, to me you don't need to discuss those things necessarily
For instance I don't find it important to discuss our different interpretations if they lead each of us to be a good person and do what's right
If that's the case then what does it matter what we believe?
Thays why I never understood why some people can't live in peace with different religions or accept that we have different views or beliefs if the important core is the same, which to me seems to be the case for all religion and spiritual teachings
If the Buddhist uses Buddhism to be a good person and do what's right and a Christian uses Christianity and the outcome is one of peave and acceptance then who cares if they have different views on a b or c
-------------------- Within You , Without You
      
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Smellyhobbit
Actual Retard



Registered: 04/01/22
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Quote:
Jean-Luc Picard said:
Quote:
loladoreen said: I feel that all the positive things I was taught from religion are the things no one follows. Love one another. Only god judges. doing service work.
This is something that really accelerated my departure from Christianity. The vast majority of Christians that I've interacted with over the years were so caught up in homosexuality or metal music or premarital sex and how to force and/or brainwash people into following their biased idea of a "Christian life" that they forget to live by the fundamentals themselves. 
See this is why I left the church. I don’t conflate the acts of the people around me with the god that I worship, which is why I’m trying my best to fly solo.
Churches are awful. We need a movement away from churches towards more community built things, like volunteering or donation.
But the church isn’t the religion. Those are two separate things.
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Smellyhobbit
Actual Retard



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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: loladoreen]
#28128225 - 01/06/23 08:51 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
loladoreen said:
Quote:
Smellyhobbit said: Faith without action, it don’t mean a thing
It’s about as useless as a screen door on a submarine
I agree with that, but not in the way that you’re interpreting it. It doesn’t mean you have to do 10 Hail Marys or whatever they’re called and go to church. It means faith IS action. None of us are living in a hole in the ground hooked up to an IV, asleep for our whole lives. Your faith is your behavior, it’s in what you do and how you act daily. I don’t see the two as separate.
Again this is just what is practiced, I’m not trying to preach at you.
The idea in Christianity is that, once you start a relationship with Christ and allow him into you spiritually it will necessitate action and a desire to do what you’re supposed to. It’s part and parcel.
But there’s nothing you’re ever going to do to lose salvation and there’s nothing you’re ever going to do to earn it. That’s the point. It isn’t that you don’t do anything at all, it’s that you’re not measuring your value by what you have or haven’t done, because it’s an unattainable standard.
Besides that, Mormonism isn’t Christian. That’s not a “No true Scotsman” fallacy, either. They were literally fooled by a man with a whole new book. It is a different set of teachings.
They believe they are christian because they believe in Christ.
And John Smith. Christ and John Smith.
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Enkidu
"No-Such-Person"


Registered: 07/09/16
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Smellyhobbit] 1
#28128229 - 01/06/23 08:53 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Smellyhobbit said: Enkidu, I have never agreed so hard with someone about my faith who wasn’t actively participating in it. That sums up so many of my feelings.
-------------------- Within You , Without You
      
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Smellyhobbit
Actual Retard



Registered: 04/01/22
Posts: 11,419
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Last seen: 5 hours, 23 minutes
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: spirit_shadow]
#28128236 - 01/06/23 08:55 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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You are actually pretty consistently a reasonable, thoughtful poster and I appreciate you. I’m glad you’re here.
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Jean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,185
Loc: New Mexico, USA
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Smellyhobbit]
#28128244 - 01/06/23 09:01 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Smellyhobbit said: Faith without action, it don’t mean a thing
It’s about as useless as a screen door on a submarine
I agree with that, but not in the way that you’re interpreting it. It doesn’t mean you have to do 10 Hail Marys or whatever they’re called and go to church. It means faith IS action. None of us are living in a hole in the ground hooked up to an IV, asleep for our whole lives. Your faith is your behavior, it’s in what you do and how you act daily. I don’t see the two as separate.
Again this is just what is practiced, I’m not trying to preach at you.
The idea in Christianity is that, once you start a relationship with Christ and allow him into you spiritually it will necessitate action and a desire to do what you’re supposed to. It’s part and parcel.
But there’s nothing you’re ever going to do to lose salvation and there’s nothing you’re ever going to do to earn it. That’s the point. It isn’t that you don’t do anything at all, it’s that you’re not measuring your value by what you have or haven’t done, because it’s an unattainable standard.
Besides that, Mormonism isn’t Christian. That’s not a “No true Scotsman” fallacy, either. They were literally fooled by a man with a whole new book. It is a different set of teachings.
If you consider yourself a Christian the way you are talking, and arent baptized, and you go ask an Anabaptist or Mormon whether you're going to to heaven, they would say no, because their interpretation is that a water baptism is necessary in order to truly accept Jesus into your heart. This contradicts what you just said, and validates what I'm saying about the inability to resolve the objective truth about what it means to be a Christian.
And Mormons self-identify as Christian, and fall under the branch of Restoration Christianity. Some denominations don't recognize them as falling under the umbrella of Christianity, but others do, and they generally share some of the core beliefs of all other denominations of Christianity (acceptance of Christ as the messiah, among others).
The fact that you don't accept their interpretation of the Bible or their legitimacy as a part of the Christian faith is just as valid as their interpretations of the Bible and their conditions for salvation.
-------------------- The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT
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