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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineKickleM
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The glimmer of a needle in the haystack * 3
    #28120919 - 01/02/23 09:30 AM (1 year, 26 days ago)

Thanks to DisORdeR for the inspirational words. :smile:

I see a big haystack in front of me. And it is a big ole pile of assumed cause and effect. And shining within is this moment. I'd like to see the moment more clearly. So I'm going to dig into the haystack. Help me out with either the digging or the misperception.

Using logic, if A causes B,
Then A and B cannot exist at the same time.

If B exists at the same time as A, then A is not causing B. B already exists.

If A exists and then B exists but neither at the same time, then how does A cause B? It's gone before B exists.

:confused:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: Kickle] * 4
    #28120984 - 01/02/23 10:23 AM (1 year, 26 days ago)

b is part of a
a may also be part of b
let it go


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #28121064 - 01/02/23 11:25 AM (1 year, 26 days ago)

A and B, as a duality, both exist as extensions of a deeper order. Two opposing elements can both be facets of the same truth.

I suppose, apropos of your comments about time, that this deeper order transcends time.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28121164 - 01/02/23 12:59 PM (1 year, 26 days ago)

If A, the iceberg, causes B, the wreck...Then A and B existed at the same moment.


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #28121222 - 01/02/23 01:43 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

Following the trend of replies, can we describe the nature of A and B? Can we define their boundaries precisely?

The iceberg and the wreck are decaying. What a wonder that they meet at all.

May our next vessel be more resilient thanks to the lessons of their meeting.



It's important that you understand--I don't know what I'm talking about. :strokebeard3:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #28121253 - 01/02/23 02:09 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

the gifted orator with nothing to say thanks the audience and the stage for an egg and a chicken.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: Kickle]
    #28121269 - 01/02/23 02:19 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:

If B exists at the same time as A, then A is not causing B. B already exists.






B only exists when the right conditions are met.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28121315 - 01/02/23 02:48 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
b is part of a
a may also be part of b
let it go




How do you figure?
Let what go?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28121320 - 01/02/23 02:50 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
A and B, as a duality, both exist as extensions of a deeper order. Two opposing elements can both be facets of the same truth.

I suppose, apropos of your comments about time, that this deeper order transcends time.




Could be, how would anyone know?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28121322 - 01/02/23 02:52 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
If A, the iceberg, causes B, the wreck...Then A and B existed at the same moment.




A good example of A and B imo. What makes the iceberg the same before and after the wreck?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: Kickle]
    #28121323 - 01/02/23 02:52 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

causality
transformation over time
Newton's forces and logic?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28121327 - 01/02/23 02:56 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

How do you see casualty?

A causes B is one of four approaches to the question I'm familiar with.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #28121355 - 01/02/23 03:19 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

Quote:

DisoRDeR said:
Following the trend of replies, can we describe the nature of A and B? Can we define their boundaries precisely?

The iceberg and the wreck are decaying. What a wonder that they meet at all.

May our next vessel be more resilient thanks to the lessons of their meeting.



It's important that you understand--I don't know what I'm talking about. :strokebeard3:




This is 10/10 material in my eyes and I don't know what I'm talking about either :smile: :lol:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: Kickle]
    #28121362 - 01/02/23 03:20 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
A and B, as a duality, both exist as extensions of a deeper order. Two opposing elements can both be facets of the same truth.

I suppose, apropos of your comments about time, that this deeper order transcends time.




Could be, how would anyone know?





I guess you'd have to be hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28121382 - 01/02/23 03:26 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

Hah!

There's this book called the cloud of unknowing. Really great mystical text imo. And the key message? Take everything you think you know and place it into a cloud of unknowing. And if you can't manage to keep from knowing, focus that knowing on knowing love.

Author? Unknown :lol:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: Kickle]
    #28121451 - 01/02/23 04:07 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
What makes the iceberg the same before and after the wreck?




A different view:

A lure and a fish striking it only exist in a moment. Before and after the strike the lure exists as intelligent design.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28121458 - 01/02/23 04:12 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

I really like the intersection you've provided here. The physical and mental.

One of my favorite things to listen to is a podcast called 99% invisible. Because it talks about all the design and history that goes into the things most of us don't pay any attention to. Like how did paramedics ever become a thing we just assume will be a part of our society? Or why do so many mailboxes have the same shape to them? Intelligent design indeed but most of us didn't do the designing or have even a whiff of awareness of what that process was like. Lots of roots to look at in design. They make for good stories imo. But just stories.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: Kickle]
    #28121479 - 01/02/23 04:24 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

Temptation: Instinctual reactions can be factored into a desired effect.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28121490 - 01/02/23 04:31 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

That's interesting too imo but maybe too niche a story for me. It's like looking at a yin yang and saying that interplay is cause/effect. Even more abstract than broad sweeps at physical and mental. And the more abstract the less it lands home.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The glimmer of a needle in the haystack [Re: Kickle]
    #28121508 - 01/02/23 04:41 PM (1 year, 25 days ago)

It's a far reach also to associate an iceberg in the same category with a fishing lure. One might have to accept that there are no accidents for that association to make sense.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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