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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Initiation of force
    #2811813 - 06/20/04 09:19 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

A debate within another thread got me thinking about something: While there are some things which obviously constitute initiation of force, there are some things which are quite debatable. I think the biggest example is pollution. Now, I believe pollution constitutes initiation of force, but since it's damn near impossible not to pollute, any attempt to stop it altogether would be unjust. So what to do? I would say set certain limits on how much pollution a factory, car, power plant, etc. can produce, and fine people for exceeding those limits. The revenues from these fines can then be used for environmental clean-up projects. What do you think?



Note: I'm mostly talking to the libertarians on this board, but others can chime in as well.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: silversoul7]
    #2811846 - 06/20/04 09:35 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I would say set certain limits on how much pollution a factory, car, power plant, etc. can produce, and fine people for exceeding those limits.



There are already limits in place.

There are already fines for power plants and factories.

Most state now check emission level for cars and you will not get an inspection sticker if your car does not meet certain levels.

I think the idea that pollution constitutes an initiation of force is.... way out there.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2811879 - 06/20/04 09:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
I think the idea that pollution constitutes an initiation of force is.... way out there.



How so?


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: silversoul7]
    #2811918 - 06/20/04 10:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Factories can sell their unused pollution credits to other factories, so one can legally pollute more, at least that is what I remember hearing :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Initiation of force [Re: silversoul7]
    #2811988 - 06/20/04 10:25 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

yeah pollution is kinda funny like that.


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Re: Initiation of force [Re: silversoul7]
    #2812247 - 06/20/04 11:45 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

This is why it's not enough to just have a single law on the books -- "Though shalt not initiate force against thy fellow man!"

It is an extremely difficult, lengthy, exacting and necessary process to build an objective body of law. It's a process requiring extremely intelligent people with imagination and practicality and a greater than average dollop of foresight to draft the laws in the first place, and another group of equally intelligent, imaginative and practical people to decide in court which specific law applies to which specific case. Unfortunately, far too many legislators (and judges) exhibit little to no intelligence, imagination, foresight or practicality.

This is why various people have suggested (not always tongue in cheek) that no new law may be added to the books without an existing law being repealed first. This proposal has a certain visceral appeal, does it not?

To get to the issue of pollution -- certain cases are clear cut. No rational person would deny that pumping thousands of gallons of toxic effluent into a river immediately upstream of a major population center is an initiation of force against the inhabitants of that town or city. Conversely, no rational person would deny that clearing scrubland near a housing development to reduce fire hazard during an exceptionally hot summer (or even to build more houses) is not an initiation of force against anyone. Unfortunately, not everyone is rational -- there have been examples of both instances: industries trying to pretend their waste is harmless and environmental extremists trying to pretend that the Prebles field mouse habitat trumps the rights of the homeowners.

The best we can do is to use the underlying principle -- "though shalt not initiate force against others" -- as the basis on which to draft new laws (as few as possible, remember) and as the deciding principle to be referred to when repealing existing law. Since this is a board oriented towards consumers of entheogenic agents, it probably hasn't escaped anyone's attention that the anti-drug laws in place at the moment don't pass the test.

In the case of pollution there will inevitably be borderline cases due to certain facets of reality which cannot be annulled through any amount of wishful thinking:

a) human existence requires the alteration of the environment
b) some of the alterations may result in health hazards to humans

Silversoul7's proposal has merit, but doesn't really give much specific guidance on how to reconcile a) and b). By what mechanism are the limits determined? Who decides what level of fine is appropriate? Are those who won't or can't pay the fines to be imprisoned?

pinky

**edited as per Baby_Hitler's catch


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Edited by pinksharkmark (06/21/04 09:47 AM)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: Phred]
    #2812892 - 06/21/04 02:41 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Conversely, no rational person would deny that clearing scrubland near a housing development to reduce fire hazard during an exceptionally hot summer (or even to build more houses) is an initiation of force against anyone.

Did you mean is notan initiation of force against anyone?



Are those who won't or can't pay the fines to be imprisoned?


Presumably the next step would be to shut down their operation, and if they refused to shut down, then imprisonment.


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Edited by Baby_Hitler (06/21/04 05:40 AM)


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: silversoul7]
    #2812930 - 06/21/04 03:06 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

When global warming takes its effect and hits hard during the soon to come Ice Age we will do something about pollution then, maybe increase the pollution to rewarm the Earth again.


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Re: Initiation of force [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2813370 - 06/21/04 09:48 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the catch. Yes, that's what I meant to write.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2813379 - 06/21/04 09:57 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I think the idea that pollution constitutes an initiation of force is.... way out there.




I agree, I still maintain that intitiation of force has to be or have the appearance of being intentional. If a factory purposly pollutes an area (where it can be prooved) then I would agree that it is a initiation of force. But like you said, they already have laws concerning this.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2813554 - 06/21/04 11:59 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I don't see why it has to be intentional to be initiation of force. What about manslaughter or reckless endangerment? Do those count as initiation of force?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: silversoul7]
    #2813573 - 06/21/04 12:10 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

What about manslaughter or reckless endangerment?




manslaughter? I'd have to say no if we're using the definition of manslaughter:

"The unlawful killing of one human by another without express or implied intent to do injury"

Just because it's a manslaughter doesn't mean that there was a Initiation of force. If we look at one of the definitions of "initiation" it states:

"The condition of being knowledgeable."

this sorta contradicts the definition of manslaughter.

Quote:

reckless endangerment




I guess it all depends on what is considered reckless endangerment, can someone be alone and stil be accused of reckless endangerment? If so then i would have to say no it is not initiation of force.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2813588 - 06/21/04 12:19 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

What about manslaughter or reckless endangerment?




manslaughter? I'd have to say no if we're using the definition of manslaughter:

"The unlawful killing of one human by another without express or implied intent to do injury"

Just because it's a manslaughter doesn't mean that there was a Initiation of force. If we look at one of the definitions of "initiation" it states:

"The condition of being knowledgeable."

this sorta contradicts the definition of manslaughter.



Being knowledgeable and having an intent are two different things. You don't get convicted of vehicular homocide of someone just jumps in front of your car when it's too late to stop. It usually involves doing something reckless that you should know better than to do, such as drunk driving. Similarly with pollution, if you work at a factory that's spewing all this smog into the air, you may not intend to pollute, but you damn sure know that that's what you're doing.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: silversoul7]
    #2813714 - 06/21/04 01:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Define "Intitiation of force" (especially the Initiation part) then.

Polluting to me, if it's not intentional can't be said to be an "initiation of force" even though it happens IMHO. If you are a environmentalist, i would say that your opinion would be the opposite. Drunk driving is a funny one because the act may border on Initiation of force because they have prior knowledge of the law that they are breaking but at the same time 99.9999999999999% of those driving after a few drinks are not trying to hurt anyone intentionally.

I guess what i'm saying is that the force has to be intentional.

Quote:

Being knowledgeable and having an intent are two different things. You don't get convicted of vehicular homocide of someone just jumps in front of your car when it's too late to stop.




Intent (Having the mind and will focused on a specific purpose) means forthought of knowledge, am i wrong?

Quote:

It usually involves doing something reckless that you should know better than to do, such as drunk driving.




but where is the Initiation of force? Is the act of getting into the car in Initiation of force? I believe you or I are confusing the terms.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2813817 - 06/21/04 01:27 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

How could someone unintentionally pollute?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2813819 - 06/21/04 01:28 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

accidents perhaps.

oil spills, fires, etc.


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Edited by Innvertigo (06/21/04 01:29 PM)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2813847 - 06/21/04 01:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

So if someone goes camping and doesn't put out their fire, and it burns down a billion dollars worth of homes and kills somebody, can the person responsible be held liable under libertarian law?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2813871 - 06/21/04 01:51 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

that's not an accident, that's negligence.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Initiation of force [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2813889 - 06/21/04 01:58 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

what is the difference between accident and negligence? Doesn't that assume some standard level of human competance which does not exist?


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Re: Initiation of force [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2813944 - 06/21/04 02:26 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Negligence is the failure to exercise the degree of care expected of a person of ordinary prudence in like circumstances in protecting others from a foreseeable and unreasonable risk of harm in a particular situation.

ie: not putting a fire out when everyone knows that you should.

an accident is just that as in oil spills where miscalculations are made either due to instumental errors.

ie: an oil freighter runs a ground when the instruments said they were on course.

Quote:

Doesn't that assume some standard level of human competance which does not exist?




yes. In everything we do we can't overlook that there has to be a small amount of human competance, that's a given. This is an easy out, an accident is something that was beyond the control of the person having the accident, negligence is like the above example. Similar but different.


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