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OfflineKickleM
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The river * 2
    #28113854 - 12/27/22 10:19 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.- Heraclitus

What do you think of this? Is there a larger metaphor at work here? Was Heraclitus actually referring to a river? And is he right?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The river [Re: Kickle]
    #28113888 - 12/27/22 10:46 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)



He's splitting hairs.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The river [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28113896 - 12/27/22 10:52 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

So you think eternal recurrence is what's going on? What's going to happen next?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The river [Re: Kickle]
    #28113902 - 12/27/22 10:58 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

the universe is an explosion
thought takes snapshots of the explosion and calls the snapshot an object, thinking of it as static
even though it has objectified 'itself', thought is also part of the explosion

snapshotting changes snapshotting

one day the river is some cold literal abstract idea, the next its a fishing vacation, another it becomes an obstacle to cross. The river flows and the snapshotter flows, and no separate thing can be found.


what interests you about the quote?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The river [Re: Freedom]
    #28113913 - 12/27/22 11:08 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I think flow interests me, and I think the quote has one notion of it presented very succinctly.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The river [Re: Kickle]
    #28113923 - 12/27/22 11:17 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
So you think eternal recurrence is what's going on? What's going to happen next?




That's the domain of the metaphor, it's the same river in a new dress and you're asking me if I can predict the wardrobe options the river will choose.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The river [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28113927 - 12/27/22 11:21 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

You can just say that you don't know. Although I do appreciate the creativity in the perspective.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The river [Re: Kickle]
    #28113933 - 12/27/22 11:31 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Well, one can read the signs...


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The river [Re: Freedom]
    #28113935 - 12/27/22 11:32 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
the universe is an explosion
thought takes snapshots of the explosion and calls the snapshot an object, thinking of it as static
even though it has objectified 'itself', thought is also part of the explosion





Does thought do this? When I think about a thing, I don't think of it in this way. So maybe I'm a silly billy, but it doesn't seem to be a crucial component of thought to represent the world in that way.

I agree that thought is part of something bigger.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The river [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28113936 - 12/27/22 11:34 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Well, one can read the signs...




We see what we see. I might be looking at different signs. Not to say the ones you see aren't there. I just don't know.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The river [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28113949 - 12/27/22 11:50 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

just don't drop your iphone in the rapids.

some people profess angels on a pin - high density visualizations
others are all about rebirth - hyper egoistic imaginations
or cyclic kalpas or jugas over hundreds of billions of years - let us dissappear into repetitive eternity.
alternate universes at every decision??? nahhhh. that's just dumb.

me I am into what changes 10 times per second. Over time that is a river or torrent perhaps, in retrospect it seems to be alternate universes splitting, and  billions of tenths of seconds are experienced every 3 years, in which a lifetime is already a kalpa.

the pin head has atoms and electrons are kind of like angels dancing dancing dancing.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The river [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28114011 - 12/27/22 12:49 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

We see what we see.

I do like the notion of taking in causes/conditions so effectively/efficiently that it saves a kalpa's worth of happenings. Great!


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The river [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28114040 - 12/27/22 01:16 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
So you think eternal recurrence is what's going on? What's going to happen next?




That's the domain of the metaphor, it's the same river in a new dress and you're asking me if I can predict the wardrobe options the river will choose.




i've never found a thing that this is
even to call it a universe is just a concept
or energy
the physical models of course exist, as ideas
but you can't touch a model
we imagine a real world outside our senses, but can never sense it
call it a river but its always changing
call it energy but there isn't a substance you can point to
call it awareness but there is nothing awareness is made from

the clothes have no emperor


Edited by Freedom (12/27/22 01:17 PM)


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The river [Re: Kickle]
    #28114048 - 12/27/22 01:24 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
the universe is an explosion
thought takes snapshots of the explosion and calls the snapshot an object, thinking of it as static
even though it has objectified 'itself', thought is also part of the explosion





Does thought do this? When I think about a thing, I don't think of it in this way. So maybe I'm a silly billy, but it doesn't seem to be a crucial component of thought to represent the world in that way.




thought is the objectification of sense data. its like seeing constelations in the stars

its like an overlay on the world

it creates a narrative of what's happening

its obviously imaginary


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: The river [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28114049 - 12/27/22 01:24 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

on the surface, the ripples that one makes when entering the river, are unique to that now, because there will never be another you that can make those same ripples, because of the nature of the interaction between water molecules and the endlessly dynamic agitations.

you may stand still for a moment in the river and be static, but the water is always dynamic.  where static meets dynamics is stanamics.

memories help form the basis of who people are, and the accumulation of past experiences determines a person's capacity to relate their past to their present.

are you the same person if you can remember who you were yesterday?  conversely, are you a different person if you cannot remember what you thought you knew yesterday?

the i of today, the i of yesterday, and the i of tomorrow.

what does the existence of a sentient being mean to that being themselves?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The river [Re: Freedom]
    #28114059 - 12/27/22 01:33 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
the universe is an explosion
thought takes snapshots of the explosion and calls the snapshot an object, thinking of it as static
even though it has objectified 'itself', thought is also part of the explosion





Does thought do this? When I think about a thing, I don't think of it in this way. So maybe I'm a silly billy, but it doesn't seem to be a crucial component of thought to represent the world in that way.




thought is the objectification of sense data. its like seeing constelations in the stars

its like an overlay on the world

it creates a narrative of what's happening

its obviously imaginary




I think thought can try to objectify. I think our senses can too. Even if one were not thinking about an object, one may be sensing an object. I don't have to think about most things I sense, because I trust my senses to do the job fine enough.

The things I think about tend to be the things I can't directly sense. Like, the meaning of your words here. I can sense your words with my eyes. But to understand how your thinking played a role, I have to think too. And that's a good thing. I can relate to you without having to be in close proximity. Amazing! We can pass knowledge down over the ages without having to physically go through all the same events. Fortunate!

I said before when I look, thought and sense have differing roles. I still think that. I also don't see that thought has the ability to make anything solid, so trying to use it in this way is pretty misguided.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The river [Re: Freedom]
    #28114077 - 12/27/22 01:48 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
.....

thought is the objectification of sense data. its like seeing constelations in the stars

its like an overlay on the world

it creates a narrative of what's happening

its obviously imaginary



sure, this is pretty close, although "obviously imaginary" is a value judgment that may not be fair.

when we think something, we really think it even if we never do think intentionally,
that does not mean it is imaginary, it is real thought, and so is imagination when it happens.
i.e.
I would say that thinking is our memory reflex to  mental contents which includes both live sense data and thoughts from previous perceptive associative reflexes.
AND
that which is active together in mind, becomes associatively linked, and can later emerge as mental contents by the same associative reflex which gives rise to all thoughts.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The river [Re: Kickle]
    #28114083 - 12/27/22 01:51 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
on the surface, the ripples that one makes when entering the river, are unique to that now, because there will never be another you that can make those same ripples, because of the nature of the interaction between water molecules and the endlessly dynamic agitations.




This has a large amount of depth to it IMO. I liked the rest of your post as well but think this has the best examination to me.

where static meets dynamics is stanamics.

:ducklol:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibledelos4life
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Re: The river [Re: Kickle]
    #28114258 - 12/27/22 04:51 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

My thought on this beautiful cosmic flow of words are that you will have aged physically, mentally and spiritually through the course of the rivers life! WOW 🤩!

“No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.- Heraclitus”


Edited by delos4life (12/27/22 04:52 PM)


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: The river [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28114334 - 12/27/22 05:48 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I guess it could be a lesson in identification. There is a river, a man, and the stepping in.

A river is familiar to man, broadly recognizable. I would liken this to any identifiable thing or type of event, including a person.
The stepping in is an engagement with the identifiable thing, the thing we are tempted to think we know through our recognition. But it is different from the circumstance that made the recognition possible. It is the same only to the resolution of our categories and scrutiny, as are we. Perhaps it incorporates an appeal to pay attention and discover the change.

Yet the statement itself and its reliance on direct, succinct language seems to validate the heuristic approach. The whole thing maybe points to the enfolding of depth and its expansion through interpretation. It references something deep and generative in us to annihilate that same knowing. Seems pretty meta.


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