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OfflineDark_Faust
Lost
I'm a teapot

Registered: 11/07/22
Posts: 9
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
An attempt to understand what is wrong with how we grow cubes.
    #28110151 - 12/23/22 04:36 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Removed to relocate to an appropriate venue.

Edited by Dark_Faust (12/23/22 07:09 PM)

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Invisiblecooleko
Augmentum provocatus
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Registered: 08/15/22
Posts: 1,010
Loc: Seattle
Re: An attempt to understand what is wrong with how we grow cubes. [Re: Dark_Faust] * 1
    #28110236 - 12/23/22 05:43 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Everything in nature lives in a balance constantly battling it out to keep every other competitor in a balance. When we grow mushrooms, we don't want a balance, we want 100% mushroom. So we sterilize our grains and let the mushroom get a head start.

Trich isn't a problem until we make a mistake with that 100% colonization. If we let trich spores land on the grains that aren't colonized by mushrooms, then it gets to grow. If we colonize grains with contaminated inoculant, then all the contamination grows. If our mushrooms are weak from having been harvested a few flushes or from being spawned with contamination, it lets competitors step in and grow.

If we took the compost route and only pasteurized our soils and let our mushrooms compete, we would get significantly fewer mushrooms and a lot more undesirables.

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OfflineVP123
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Registered: 06/27/19
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Re: An attempt to understand what is wrong with how we grow cubes. [Re: Dark_Faust] * 1
    #28110326 - 12/23/22 06:45 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Dark_Faust said:
Thoughts, suggestions are welcome; however, if you are one of those old farts that thinks the way we are doing it cannot possibly be improved, please move on and go talk to the rest of your flat earther friends.




My suggestion is for you not to resort to ad hominem attacks with anyone who may not agree with you. This is counterproductive when trying to open a dialogue. Calling old farts and comparing with flatearthers those who may not agree with you is rude and disrespectful.

I couldn't say we are growing mushrooms the wrong way. Different than in nature, definitely. But even molecular biologists resort to special growth media in the lab. Often supplemented with antibiotics and antifungals in order to grow the cells that normally grow in very different environments in the body.

Your question has been posted in the shroomery multiple times. Usually by people who wish there would be a way around using pasteurization and sterilization. It is estimated that there are about 4 million different prokaryote species in 1 gram of soil. Which one would you suggest we start with? And what is the basis for proposing it? Or how do we go about finding out? Maybe it is easier to work with current methods? It is obvious that the current methods can be improved but, how to select a new direction?

And regarding nature vs. growth TEKs, how many grams of cubes does nature produce per square meter vs. grams per meter produced in a monotub? How do you define what is better? Yield per unit area or not having to resort to sterile techniques?

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OfflineDharmaForKarma
Tub monkey
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Registered: 04/24/20
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Re: An attempt to understand what is wrong with how we grow cubes. [Re: cooleko]
    #28110327 - 12/23/22 06:46 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

I completely agree with cooleko’s post.

Cubes grow just fine in a wide range of artificial conditions with very little effort. The vast majority of folks here grow cubes with no contamination whatsoever. Follow current teks, avoid grow kits, read, ask questions, and be patient. Yet mistakes and accidents happen. Sometimes plates, jars, and tubs will go bad. Nature plays the most brutal of games.

With proper framing it’s easier to see our individual and collective success with cultivating mushrooms in our kitchens, bathrooms, bedrooms and basements is quite remarkable. Mushrooms play with probability in ways that humans cannot easily comprehend. Trillions of spores created and released so a few take hold. We expect a few tens or hundreds of thousands to develop on command, and to survive and thrive towards reproduction in those aforementioned contrived environments.

I’ll put it this way: that it works at all is a bit of a miracle. That it works well, repeatedly, is a blessing.

You might find it more productive to consider not what’s wrong with the way ‘we’ grow cubes, but rather what types of errors cause cube cultivation to go poorly. The knowledge is there but sometimes the execution, and the patience, are not.

Some relevant questions and projects that come to mind include

Can the teks be made more approachable, easier to read.

Can the overall body of accurate, relevant information be presented more clearly.

Yes and yes but we have a structural challenge here. In long running multithreaded forums good information gets lost. It can be hard to identify authoritative guidance vs out of date ideas vs made-up bullshit. Keeping the stickies and FAQs up to date is time consuming, and you can lead a n00b to the FAQ but you can’t make them read it.

Can the process be made so simple no reading or comprehension is necessary.

Sure. It’s called a grow kit.

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OfflineDark_Faust
Lost
I'm a teapot

Registered: 11/07/22
Posts: 9
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: An attempt to understand what is wrong with how we grow cubes. [Re: VP123]
    #28110336 - 12/23/22 06:57 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

The intention of this post was to incite a conversation about how we could do things better or things that may result in improvements upon our current growth methods.

This is how science works, we question and try new things until we find a new and better way to do things. If you feel that that is not possible as your post implies, you could just move on as i politely requested you do.

Why you feel you need to interject on scientific inquiry when your only contribution is that its wrong to try and improve how we do things, because the best possible way has already been found; well its hard not to draw parallels with having a conversation with a flatearther with such an attitude.

If you have nothing to contribute other than "we are already doing the best thing we can" please, please just move on.

Edited by Dark_Faust (12/23/22 07:06 PM)

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Offline10ftTall
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Re: An attempt to understand what is wrong with how we grow cubes. [Re: Dark_Faust] * 3
    #28110341 - 12/23/22 07:05 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

The tone of your writing makes you sound like a confrontational asshole tho


--------------------
Looking to absorb as much knowledge as mushroomable

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OfflineDark_Faust
Lost
I'm a teapot

Registered: 11/07/22
Posts: 9
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: An attempt to understand what is wrong with how we grow cubes. [Re: 10ftTall]
    #28110343 - 12/23/22 07:08 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Thats because i didnt want this to devolve into a petty argument rather than a scientific inquiry, clearly i picked the wrong venue i will delete my post.

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OfflineDharmaForKarma
Tub monkey
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Registered: 04/24/20
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Re: An attempt to understand what is wrong with how we grow cubes. [Re: 10ftTall]
    #28110365 - 12/23/22 07:29 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Quote:

10ftTall said:
The tone of your writing makes you sound like a confrontational asshole tho




:whathesaid:

Dude - one cube grow. A handful of posts. It’s okay to have a contrary view but coming in with guns-a-blazing is alienating. You are quite welcome but take some time to introduce yourself. Slow down a bit and build some cred.

Please re-read my post. The science is pretty good. Very good. Mush life cycles are generally well understood. There are true experts among us, fully credentialed academic researchers and self taught intuitives and a wide range in between. They validate, guide, and improve the body of knowledge regularly.

Science can always be improved but I suggest it’s the human part that causes trouble in mush cult. Not reading, not comprehending, not following instructions.

Think of it like a sport. Football or Futbol. If your team loses is it because the science of the sport is not sufficiently understood by mankind? Or do they just need to go back in, watch the videos of their performance, learn from other teams, and try to do a little better next time.

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OfflineVP123
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Registered: 06/27/19
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Re: An attempt to understand what is wrong with how we grow cubes. [Re: Dark_Faust]
    #28110386 - 12/23/22 07:48 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Dark_Faust said:
The intention of this post was to incite a conversation about how we could do things better or things that may result in improvements upon our current growth methods.

This is how science works, we question and try new things until we find a new and better way to do things. If you feel that that is not possible as your post implies, you could just move on as i politely requested you do.

Why you feel you need to interject on scientific inquiry when your only contribution is that its wrong to try and improve how we do things, because the best possible way has already been found; well its hard not to draw parallels with having a conversation with a flatearther with such an attitude.

If you have nothing to contribute other than "we are already doing the best thing we can" please, please just move on.




I have to disagree that my only contribution was that it is wrong to try and improve how we do things. Those are your words, not mine. If you read my post again I said "It is obvious that the current methods can be improved...". However  your only contribution so far could be summarized somehow like this:

- we are doing things wrong
- there has to be a better way
- maybe there is some bacteria that can help and I wish someone else would tell me (do you realize that isolating bacteria also requires sterile techniques? )

Your assessment that science works by asking questions and trying new things is incomplete. What you are missing are testable hypotheses. You are not proposing anything, you are only complaining of the current methods. This doesn't help anyone. It is nothing but wishful thinking. I asked some questions in order to clarify the discussion and apparently, you have decided to avoid them. I provided a reference from PNAS about the estimated number of bacterial species living in soil and contributed my own assessment as to why it may be very difficult to find out the right combination of microbes. If to you this amounts to no contribution I have no clue what you expect because it is more than obvious that you are not interested in a discussion unless everyone agrees completely with you.

I think that is the end of this discussion.

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OfflineDark_Faust
Lost
I'm a teapot

Registered: 11/07/22
Posts: 9
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: An attempt to understand what is wrong with how we grow cubes. [Re: DharmaForKarma]
    #28110398 - 12/23/22 07:59 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Either there is room for improvement on what we do now, or there isn't. The only way to be certain that things will never improve is to never bother questioning how we currently do things and simply maintain the status quo. I will concede that this was clearly an inappropriate place to inquire about things we could do differently.

Many growers have been doing the same CVG or CV or C substrate as 1:1 to 1:5 to there spawn in grows for decades and there really isn't room for conversation about how things could be done differently.

Wood lovers seem to be alot more resistant to trich than not, trichoderma favorite carbon source is lactose, which is needed in digesting lignin found in wood, its converted into lactic acid and working in conjunction with manganese peroxide it is used to to break down carbons in lignin.

Is this a coincidence, maybe the lack of lignin in the caseing layer prevents cubensis from bothering to convert the lactose sugars allowing it to build up, making it more susceptible to trichoderma. Perhaps a caseing layer consisting of straw or hwfp supplemented with manganese sulfate (shown to dramatically improve a species ability to digest lignin, wood loving or not) would prevent trich outbreaks in cubes or at least reduce the severity.

Perhaps by introducing a bacteria that could compete with trich by digesting lactose in the caseing layer would be enough to prevent an outbreak. Many such bacteria that do this can be found in milk.

Maybe this is all nonsense speculation, but its infinitely better than hoping on the "maintain status quo" train even if its completely wrong in every way.

i was hoping this community would be open minded enough to consider the possibility that perfection hadn't been achieved and discuss it rather than wasting my time and theirs with pedantic nonsense.

I withdraw my question; at least if i stick to reading papers about the subject and simply doing my own experiments i don't have to waste my time arguing about whether questioning that a better way could exist; is a worth while question.

Edited by Dark_Faust (12/23/22 08:09 PM)

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OfflineDark_Faust
Lost
I'm a teapot

Registered: 11/07/22
Posts: 9
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: An attempt to understand what is wrong with how we grow cubes. [Re: VP123]
    #28110435 - 12/23/22 08:18 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Sorry, this thread is turned far from the discussion i had hoped it would be and i got pretty focused on the negative part of the post before it and the comment on the number of different types of bacteria led me to believe that you felt there was no point in pursuing it. I removed the post as i don't want to argue about nonsense for no reason. If i had to choose a bacteria to start i would use something that is good at digesting lactose into lactic acid. So basically something from milk, yoghurt or cheese. These bacteria are natural inhibitors to trich, the hard part would be finding when to introduce them and by what means.

either way not a topic for discussion on this venue.

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OfflinePadaone
Mycophage

Registered: 07/03/22
Posts: 66
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: An attempt to understand what is wrong with how we grow cubes. [Re: Dark_Faust]
    #28110605 - 12/24/22 01:18 AM (1 year, 4 months ago)

I saw a grow that someone introduced lactic acid bacteria to the sub water. It looked great at first. Nice clean growth and then right in 100% colonization Trich came in hard.

I used to think "there has to be an easier way" experimenting away. None even came close to PF tek. Dedicate your time to mastering current methods, understand why and your experiments will be much more fruitful.

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