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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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a country of guns * 1
    #28085181 - 12/05/22 06:49 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I want to be the first to say that I am a gun owner, and support gun ownership within reason. That said, the fact is that the Second Amendment to the Bill of Rights is an anachronism, no matter how you slice it. The context for the amendment at the time bears absolutely no resemblance to modern American society. I would like to present a highly thought-provoking excerpt from Joseph J. Ellis' book, "The Quartet: Orchestrating The Second American Revolution, 1783-1789," which I believe covers the issue very succinctly. Here it is:


Quote:

“Madison was responding to recommended amendments from five states, calling for the prohibition of a permanent standing army on the grounds that it had historically proven to be an enduring threat to [American] values. It is clear that Madison’s intention in drafting his proposed amendment was to assure those skeptical souls that the defense of the United States would depend on state militias rather than a professional, federal army. In Madison’s formulation, the right to bear arms was not inherent but derivative, depending on service in the militia. The recent Supreme Court decision (Heller v. District of Columbia, 2008) that found the right to bear arms an inherent and nearly unlimited right is clearly at odds with Madison’s original intentions.”





I have posted this in this subforum, and not the Politics subforum, because I am interested in exploring the issue from a sociological and cultural angle; I really have no interest in the politics of things.


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Invisiblesplit_by_nine
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Registered: 07/11/18
Posts: 21,288
Re: a country of guns [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28085285 - 12/05/22 07:42 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

i cant imagine being a united states citizen in todays world that strongly believes they need to own assault rifles in order to protect themselves from the same united states they pledge allegiance to.


its a very confusing time in the usa right now. its hard to point the finger and say, "there's the bad guy right there", because of all the infighting.


culturally speaking, the american climate is very fragile and under a lot of tension because of the unstoppable forward progress. things are not the same as they were 246 years ago when the usa was created and we need to acknowledge that the constitution, although very well constructed, does not represent the whole of the country as it stands today. 

changes need to happen for us to grow and so a lot of people feel threatened and afraid that their country is losing its identity.

its not. the identity of the usa is UNITY and the pursuit of happiness.

the real problem is that the identity of the usa is defined differently by asking someone who lives in alabama and flys a confederate flag versus someone who lives in san francisco and flys a rainbow flag.

we should be asking ourselves what does unity really mean and how do we achieve it


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: a country of guns [Re: split_by_nine]
    #28085429 - 12/05/22 09:16 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Unity is expressed as "One nation under God" which is a can of worms to begin with while social movement tends to separation, competition and condemnation rather than homogenation.


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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: a country of guns [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #28085493 - 12/05/22 10:41 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I find it all pretty irrelevant and have no awe for the constitution, I'm about the reality on the ground.
Right now, you're free to look at images of people who have been forced into concentration camps in China (Al Jazeera article, Xinjiang Victims Database.) There is an organized and systematic genocide comparable to the Holocaust taking place as we speak and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it. The CCP made sure of this, forcing Uyghers to register things as basic as kitchen knives. Would the outcome be different if they had access to guns? We can't say. What we can say is that when the government takes control of the ability of the people to fight back, genocide is entirely possible.

The more dangerous the population, the less vulnerable they are. That's all that matters, IMO


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Invisiblesplit_by_nine
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Registered: 07/11/18
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Re: a country of guns [Re: Darwin23]
    #28085495 - 12/05/22 10:45 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

i am only speculating but i would figure more people in China support the communist state than there are people against it. how else would a country that large continue to carry on the way they do:shrug:


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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: a country of guns [Re: split_by_nine]
    #28085509 - 12/05/22 11:08 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

You'd be wrong about that (at least, in the past several months).

China instituted a "Zero Covid Policy". Every single person in the country was given a QR code which was either green, yellow or red. A green QR code allowed you to do everything you normally could do. A yellow QR code severely limits your rights and your ability to travel. A red QR code means mandatory isolation in isolation camps. At the same time, large cities were being totally closed down, including having people locked into their apartments. This led to multiple starvation deaths.

Very recently, a horrific video emerged of a building fire. Everyone in the building had been welded into their apartments. The occupants screamed and begged for help before burning alive. This was a major spark for the revolution that is currently happening. More benign, but equally influential was the World Cup. The Chinese citizens were able to watch the World Cup and saw that the crowd seemed free of masks. This told them they were being lied to.

The first major act of resistance started at the FoxCon manufacturing facility which employees over 200,000 people. Fed up with forced quarantine and constant insecurity, the workers started to revolt. This was met with thousands of police and soldiers being sent into the area to suppress the rebellion. They were quickly pushed back by angry and violent protesters, being sent into retreat. While these videos were only online for less than an hour, they sparked something.

Soon after, many major universities released documents to all of their students calling for the overthrow of the current government and an end to the Zero Covid Policy. The CCP went as far as shutting down social media and using signal jammers in the middle of protests, but it was too late. The violent protests/revolution were countrywide and continue at the time of this post.

The CCP wants you to think that the Chinese people are harmonious (across ethnic lines) and happy with the current system but these protests suggest otherwise.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a country of guns [Re: Darwin23]
    #28085590 - 12/06/22 01:44 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

being a dangerous people is less sensible than having an equitable constitution - including a bill of rights and freedoms that translates as opportunity and safety for a country's citizens.
being a well educated, healthy, engaged population, in my opinion, is a far more civilized direction than being a dangerous people.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: a country of guns [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28085678 - 12/06/22 06:44 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787


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rahz

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: a country of guns [Re: Rahz]
    #28085709 - 12/06/22 07:18 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Ditto -  civil disobedience is good, but declawed?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: a country of guns [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28085826 - 12/06/22 10:04 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I think he preferred a militia as a strong counterbalance but suspect he wasn't against the common man holding arms or saw it as less than inherent.

"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: a country of guns [Re: Darwin23]
    #28085917 - 12/06/22 11:46 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Darwin23 said:
I find it all pretty irrelevant and have no awe for the constitution, I'm about the reality on the ground.
Right now, you're free to look at images of people who have been forced into concentration camps in China (Al Jazeera article, Xinjiang Victims Database.) There is an organized and systematic genocide comparable to the Holocaust taking place as we speak and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it. The CCP made sure of this, forcing Uyghers to register things as basic as kitchen knives. Would the outcome be different if they had access to guns? We can't say. What we can say is that when the government takes control of the ability of the people to fight back, genocide is entirely possible.

The more dangerous the population, the less vulnerable they are. That's all that matters, IMO





I just wonder if an individual or militia could have parity with, or against, a coordinated military. Does high gun ownership really mean a safer population? Does that question have relevance if there were some sort of civil war?

The Uighur situation is nothing short of a tragedy. Just as no one could do anything about Bolsonaro's devastation of the Amazon but look on, the fact that we are a world of sovereign nations means the Uighurs are at the PRC's mercy unless anyone wants to start a major war with China, who have the bomb.

If every Uighur had a glock, or a hunting rifle, or an assault weapon, would this really limit China's agenda? That's what I don't see in these debates referring to citizens' "protecting themselves." I agree with RGV below that the safest society is not one where every citizen has a gun, but one in which every citizen has some sort of adequate education and material sufficiency. But as far as protection, I just don't see it when you're talking about the opponents being militaries.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a country of guns [Re: Rahz]
    #28085919 - 12/06/22 11:48 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

there is no authority in dangerous people. the authority in the people emerges from discourse which is the essence of democracy.

to reach the point of discourse, and democracy, one has to lay down defensiveness - become open to the ideas of others and find a creative synthesis.

the gun thing is completely different.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: a country of guns [Re: Rahz]
    #28085927 - 12/06/22 11:55 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I think he preferred a militia as a strong counterbalance but suspect he wasn't against the common man holding arms or saw it as less than inherent.

"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788





Good point, but I think the main thrust of my point is that the modern era is so different from the eighteenth century that to interpret the Second Amendment in any kind of relevant or legally binding sense is impossible. When you consider what happened during the twentieth century, one could conceivably make the argument that colonial Americans were closer to hunter-gatherers than they were to us, technologically and economically.

Your quote is very apt, but interestingly, like Hamilton, Madison was very wary of the concept of democracy. At the Constitutional Convention, it was his aim to make a hierarchy of administrative levels between the voters and the politicians. It was very common then not to trust "the mob." Later on, out of this have come our democratic traditions, but in many respects early American government was pre-democratic. It was just such a different time.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: a country of guns [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28085961 - 12/06/22 12:25 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
there is no authority in dangerous people. the authority in the people emerges from discourse which is the essence of democracy.

to reach the point of discourse, and democracy, one has to lay down defensiveness - become open to the ideas of others and find a creative synthesis.

the gun thing is completely different.




Dangerous people are the authority always. Hopefully discourse will suffice but if not it would be shortsighted to have no other recourse. You place a lot of faith in the institution of government which always seeks more power. The idea that one should be defenseless for democracy to work is contrary to the way democracies have formed and a defenseless population is in no position to parlay on equal footing.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: a country of guns [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28085977 - 12/06/22 12:38 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
I think he preferred a militia as a strong counterbalance but suspect he wasn't against the common man holding arms or saw it as less than inherent.

"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788





Good point, but I think the main thrust of my point is that the modern era is so different from the eighteenth century that to interpret the Second Amendment in any kind of relevant or legally binding sense is impossible. When you consider what happened during the twentieth century, one could conceivably make the argument that colonial Americans were closer to hunter-gatherers than they were to us, technologically and economically.

Your quote is very apt, but interestingly, like Hamilton, Madison was very wary of the concept of democracy. At the Constitutional Convention, it was his aim to make a hierarchy of administrative levels between the voters and the politicians. It was very common then not to trust "the mob." Later on, out of this have come our democratic traditions, but in many respects early American government was pre-democratic. It was just such a different time.




Different in some ways but not in all. They were interested in preserving a democratic republic. In addition to separation of federal powers and states rights, they clearly wanted there to be a non-governmental component to that balance of power. I don't suppose the cumulative militia power is enough to be a deterrent. If the need were to arise, absent the availability of fire arms it would be difficult for such militias to form. Keeping the supply of guns in the hands of citizens in some way is reasonable.

If there was more interest in states and communities maintaining sufficient armories then I would be more comfortable with restrictions in other areas. Things are different today in many ways and it's possible that despite the measures that are taken, a population of citizens despite having a large number of firearms wouldn't be able to water the tree of liberty. But if people want to try, they should be free to do so. It's necessity was a foregone conclusion then. Are things different in that sense now?


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a country of guns [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28086081 - 12/06/22 02:01 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

spoken as a cowboy should.
parlay
you mean discuss, converse, so as to manage the world that we share.
parlay is when we are discussing a trade or the verity of boundaries of our territory.

at some point the territory is what it is, and trade may not be the business that needs managing.

we are now at a level of social density that so much more needs to be managed than trade and boundaries, and coming into a town hall meeting with defensive mentality and concealed carry mentality is super backwards.

we are no longer killing all the buffalo to fuck up the indigenous residents of the pioneering mandate.

At this juncture, we are apologizing to the people we have harmed and breeding the buffalo back. we are not cowboys and indians anymore, and there is a lot of cleaning up to do.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: a country of guns [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28086154 - 12/06/22 02:58 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

"A parley refers to a discussion or conference, especially one designed to end an argument or hostilities between two groups of people." I understand you like to make your own definitions and you can conflate me/my words with whatever you like but it's unnecessary to make your point.

I don't believe you have a good grasp of human nature if you think we're beyond violence. The threat of it is what holds society together and history is replete with rulers who abuse power. There's nothing new that has inherently changed that. I understand idealists yearn for a time when measures beyond words are absolutely unnecessary but I don't think it's realistic.

But cowboys and buffalo, okay.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a country of guns [Re: Rahz]
    #28086159 - 12/06/22 03:02 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)



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InvisibleRahz
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Re: a country of guns [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28086181 - 12/06/22 03:20 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

:shrug:


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: a country of guns [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28086281 - 12/06/22 05:00 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

It's not a gun problem. It's a people problem.

Why wouldn't a government that's increasingly becoming a police state, not want its citizens to have guns ?

First its assault rifles. Then, handguns. Then rifles, swords, knives, until all of a sudden, we have no defense left.
Criminals are going to get guns/assault rifles/grenades/whatever regardless of legality.
Do you really believe banning assault rifles in America is going to fix our gun problems?

A sufficiently advanced 3D printer is able to print working assault rifles, handguns, and it won't be long (maybe 20 years) before these are as common as regular printers.

All of a sudden you have a bunch of sheep surrounded by wolves and militant shepards.

It's a slippery slope.

There are serious problems in our society, overall mental health is on the decline. LONELINESS is at an all-time high.
Addiction, out of control.
The rich are getting richer, the poor, poorer.
There is so much fake bullshit, brainwashing, algorithmic ads..keeping up with the jones's.
It's only going to get worse.

We need to start treating each other like human beings. We need to treat mental health with counseling and therapy, not throw them in prison/asylums and/or shut down any hopes of healing with big pharma pushed pills.

Greed is literally driving humanity in the dirt while a relative select few profit.

False flags. CIA black ops. Depopulation.

These are the real problems. Fix society first. The rest will follow naturally.

It's not going to happen. But it sure would be cool if it did.


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