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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Hookers and Johns
    #28055084 - 11/16/22 07:39 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Looks like this is kinda full circle, from legalization to a rethink, definitely not as prevalent in the USA, so an interesting read. Always thought that sex could potentially be business like, but some interesting rebuttals here.

Is it possible to successfully regulate sexual behavior? Would the government actually do a stint of cock watch, to confirm the use of rubbers?




https://unherd.com/2022/11/germany-europes-bordello/


Germany is known as the bordello of Europe. It is a hard-won title. With more than 3,000 brothels across the country, and 500 in Berlin alone, its sex trade is worth more than £11 billion per year.

Prostitution, in all its forms, is legal in Germany, and has been since the end of the Second World War. Recently, though, attitudes have been changing. People and politicians are demanding that the government take notice of the  “pimp state” and consider the terrible toll prostitution takes on its women and girls.

Germany’s “industrialised prostitution” is horrific, according to those who have survived it. The laws there give licence to pimps; they are referred to as “businessmen” and “managers” as they buy and sell desperate women. Cologne opened the world’s first drive-through brothel in 2001, and since then, more followed. There are “mega brothels” in cities such as Munich and Berlin which can accommodate around 650 punters at one time offering an “early bird” deal of a burger, beer and sex. At quiet times, some brothels offer “two for the price of one” deals, and “happy hours” with discounted rates.


Legalisation has helped expand Germany’s sex trade: there are an estimated 400,000 prostitutes, and around 1.2 million men (the population of Germany is a little over 80 million) who buy sex every day.

However, launched at an international conference in Berlin last week, a new report did much to shift the narrative about prostitution and its harms, in a country that has long defended and promoted the inside of a woman’s body as a suitable workplace. The report, “Men who pay for sex in Germany and what they teach us about the failure of legal prostitution”, was built on data from 96 German sex buyers and it validates much of what sex trade survivors, and legal scholars, have been telling the world for decades.

The men, aged between 18 and 89, were a generally diverse group, ranging from the unemployed and men in unskilled, low-income jobs, through to high-end professionals. The punters provided candid information about their attitudes, behaviours and motivations when it comes to paying for sex. They were asked questions like how does legalisation operate? Does it make the women safer? Has it resulted in a reduction in trafficking?

The research, spearheaded by psychologist Dr Melissa Farley, marks the final part of a six-country study on punters, built on data from lengthy interviews with 763 men in the USA, Cambodia, England, India, Scotland and Germany.

In Germany, the Prostitution Act of 2002 introduced full legalisation which classified the sex trade as a form of labour, and a “job like any other”. Pimps became businessmen, and the women “sex workers”. It swept aside all those post-war restrictions which said prostitution was “not prohibited but… immoral”. And, despite government attempts to regularise the sex trade, barely any pimps paid taxes: as few as 44 (out of 80,000) prostituted women registered themselves as such, despite it being a legal requirement.


In 2017, following lobbying from feminists and testimony from police officers about the rising levels of criminality and violence under the legal regime, the government introduced a number of restrictions: pimps were no longer allowed to dictate which “services” the women should provide to punters; brothel owners had to apply for a licence; and punters were mandated to use condoms.

“Of course, there was no way of enforcing these regulations,” Angie*, a German sex trade survivor tells me. “Pimps are criminals who just want to make money, and [punters] can’t be made to put on a condom. We still had to do what we were told.”

In Germany, prostitution is seen as a necessity for men, and almost good for wider society. As one sex buyer put it: “The nature of men is that they have no control over themselves. But because they can use prostitutes, there are fewer sexual offences.” He couldn’t be more wrong, not only are sexual offences being committed against prostituted women, but in countries with legalised prostitution, rates of male violence tend to be higher than in others.

Many of the German punters interviewed have seen evidence of coercion, terror and violence towards the women. Regardless, they would all pay for sex. “The German system has effectively legalised rape, so long as it’s done to a prostituted woman,” said Alice*, another sex trade survivor.

One argument used by those in favour of legalisation is that if the men know they are not going to be arrested for buying sex, they would be far more likely to report any evidence of trafficking and underage girls being exploited. However, only one of the 96 German punters interviewed had reported evidence of trafficking to police.



The problem is that, as one john said: “Once you’ve paid, you can do anything you like to her.” The men were asked if they were aware of violence from pimps towards the women. Many were, having seen pimps routinely commit violent acts that meet international definitions of torture. One man said: “There was one [pimp] who really beat up one of his women. With the fist two or three times in the face and thrown her against the wall.” Another reported: “When the women didn’t pay the pimp enough, they had their fingernails pulled off, or they beat the women to a pulp. The women were scared and never said anything.”

The sex buyers showed little to no empathy towards the women. “It’s like having a cup of coffee, when you’re done you throw it out,” said one. “It’s like renting an organ for 10 minutes,” said another.

There is no shame attached to being a john in Germany, which is a large part of the problem. Legalisation is supposed to reduce trafficking, violence, and the underground sex trade, but, as the report highlights, the opposite has happened, with illegal activities burgeoning alongside the legal ones.

To them, prostituted women are “unrapeable” and that if they can’t have sex with who they want, when they want, how they want, they will be compelled to, as one man said, “rape a real woman”. Three-quarters of the interviewees held this attitude. As one said: “Prostitution is good for society because men have an excessive sex drive and men can take it out on them without attacking other women or attacking children.”


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“I must not fear.
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Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28055412 - 11/16/22 10:35 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quite a few holes in the methodology there, but still paints a pretty grim picture of humanity...

Quote:

“(The Johns) were asked questions like how does legalisation operate? Does it make the women safer? Has it resulted in a reduction in trafficking?”



That’s like asking the guineapig to explain the pharmacokinetics of the trial drug.

Sounds like every problem they describe with “legalization” is exactly the same as in the black market :shrug:

What’s the alternative they want implemented?


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: dizzy_simmons] * 2
    #28055824 - 11/17/22 08:31 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Sounds like a failure of the law not having any enforcement mechanism in addition to some seriously shitty societal attitudes to sex workers and women in general.  If you are going to legalize a field that is dominated by a criminal element, you need to have the ability and will to crack heads of bad actors early and often to set the tone.


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: Ice9]
    #28055860 - 11/17/22 09:03 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

From what I read, my conclusion is that a big part of this problem in Germany doesn't come from legalization of prostitution  but of pimps.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: iggyhiggy] * 3
    #28055882 - 11/17/22 09:49 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Yeah, because legalization doesn't make pimping more prevalent in the same way legalization of weed doesn't make dispensaries more abundant.

:facepalm:

The sex industry, legal or not, relies upon the exploitation of underaged women.  Without that, the industry cannot supply the necessary workforce.  Anyone who doesn't see this hasn't taken a very close look at the sex industry.  Pimps are the ones who recruit and groom sex workers.  Without them, there is no sex industry.



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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #28055896 - 11/17/22 09:58 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Not necessarily.
Here for example prostitution is legal, but pimping isn't. In general is illegal any 'collateral activity', basically meaning that it's illegal gaining from prostitution of someone else.
Obviously it's not enforced so all prostitutes have pimps, get beaten and all the shit related. But Germans are pretty good at enforcing laws.

The same goes for weed and dispensaries. You give the correlation as obvious because you're used to the American turbo-capitalist way to do things including legalization. But there are other ways too

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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #28055898 - 11/17/22 09:59 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Capitalism, in general, relies on the exploitation of workers. Is the problem you describe so very different from industries that traditionally relied on child labour to profit before regulation made it increasingly difficult?

If we aren't about to abolish capitalism, it still seems that more effective regulation is the better approach, instead of criminalization of sex work. Here's to cooperatively owned and managed brothels!


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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #28055905 - 11/17/22 10:06 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

It's pretty easy to broaden any issue until it touches everything, but this issue has a unique trait in that people do not get into the sex industry for the first time as adults.  That's just a simple fact.  The vast majority of sex workers, wherever you go, started as children.  In a perfect world where enforcement was 100% effective and all sex workers started as adults, there wouldn't be enough of them to meet demand or even form an "industry."

Anyone can talk about philosophical absolutes and spin the issue as one of individual freedom or paternalism, or whatever...but the reality is that any sex worker you find has a 90%+ chance of having been groomed as a child.  Given that reality, legalization isn't the answer.  Regulation isn't the answer.  I don't know what the answer is, but I know that treating sex workers like criminals when they are actually victims isn't the answer either.


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #28055911 - 11/17/22 10:11 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

TBH I don't have a clear opinion about legalization of prostitution.
In general I dislike the idea of prostitution. Nontheless, it exists and here is said to be the 'most ancient job in the world'. Also it's very difficult to enforce a law against it so MAYBE the best option (from a capitalist state POV) is probably regulate it in a way aimed to avoid exploitment of workers and sex-related disease.

I'd say the same for abortion. Who likes abortion? I think nobody like abortion (meaning the operation), still it has always been practiced litterally since ancient age (probably it's the second most ancient job, straight consequence of the first).
So I'm strongly for abortion to be legal, as it guarantees the woman to have it in a safe environment

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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #28055917 - 11/17/22 10:16 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
... but this issue has a unique trait in that people do not get into the sex industry for the first time as adults.  That's just a simple fact. ...



That's an interesting fact, and i'm curious where you found it

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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28055927 - 11/17/22 10:26 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
It's pretty easy to broaden any issue until it touches everything, but this issue has a unique trait in that people do not get into the sex industry for the first time as adults.  That's just a simple fact.  The vast majority of sex workers, wherever you go, started as children.  In a perfect world where enforcement was 100% effective and all sex workers started as adults, there wouldn't be enough of them to meet demand or even form an "industry."

Anyone can talk about philosophical absolutes and spin the issue as one of individual freedom or paternalism, or whatever...but the reality is that any sex worker you find has a 90%+ chance of having been groomed as a child.  Given that reality, legalization isn't the answer.  Regulation isn't the answer.  I don't know what the answer is, but I know that treating sex workers like criminals when they are actually victims isn't the answer either.




I agree with most of it, except that making/keeping it illegal seems to me counerproductive.

1) because it often ends criminalizing sex workers, who as you say are most often the victims
2) creates a wide shadow-area wich IMO make even easier the recruitment of underaged girls
3) creates the perfect environment for pimps and enslavement
4) perfect environment for diseases

This said and knowing that it's not the perfect solution (expecially when not enforced) i find that allowing prostitution but NOT a third part gaining from it is somehow an acceptable compromise.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: iggyhiggy]
    #28055973 - 11/17/22 11:03 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Define "gaining from it"

From what I can tell, depending on your definition, you're either outlawing all prostitution other than street hooking which is the most dangerous kind or you're making pimping legal


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: Enlil]
    #28056021 - 11/17/22 11:36 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Yeah, because legalization doesn't make pimping more prevalent in the same way legalization of weed doesn't make dispensaries more abundant.




This seems like a narrow definition. Unless you consider the street dealer to be a "dispensary".

I get the point you're trying to make, but there is definitely a difference between a legal dispensary and an illegal "dispensary".

I also agree that sex work is inherently predatory and sex workers are, almost always, abused and pushed into sex work as children. I think a close corollary would be strip clubs and zoos. Personally, I always hated zoos as a child, and I never knew why until I walked into my first strip club as a college freshman and walked right back out.

Both rely on an exploitation of living beings. While the workers of the zoo might like working with animals and truly wish to make their lives better, the zookeeper fundamentally exploits the lives of animals for a profit. Similarly, strip club owners exploit often young and vulnerable women into sex-adjacent work for a profit.

Ultimately, I think the reason there is no good solution to the question of prostitution is that we recognize that no matter how much harm reduction is put in place, the industry will always rely on a conga line of disposable and abused young women who were almost always groomed as children.

But at the same time, any industry relies on a conga line of disposable young workers who were almost always groomed to believe that the system they were born into is right and just and empowering. That is how capital gets their labor. The problem with the sex industry is that the coercion is so obvious, when compared to the coercive forces that shaped, for example, my childhood and made me a productive little corporate scientist.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: Kryptos]
    #28056024 - 11/17/22 11:40 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

You've clearly never worked at a zoo.  There may be private zoos that exploit animals for profit, but in the U.S. the vast majority of zoos operate for conservation, study, and protection of animals.  Money from patrons pays for that process, and these zoos absolutely do not make a profit.  They rely on donations to stay afloat.

And you can't compare the sex industry to strip clubs since strip clubs are a part of the sex industry.


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: Enlil]
    #28056035 - 11/17/22 11:50 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

No no no.
It's quite the opposite, i know street hooking is the most dangerous and also exposed to pimpery or whotever you call it.
I think i have some issue in translating it, as i think it was clear but i see you don't understand. Could you be a bit more specifical?

I'll try for you tho...
For 'NOT allowing a third part gaining from it' i exactly meant that pimps are not allowed. Thats the law here. Basically it means prostitution is only allowed at home. In theory it's allowed in street, but in general local administration take mesures to discurage street hooking. There is a bit of a debate about brothels, wich are not allowed but someone propose to legalize them for health-safety purposes. But according to the principle of the law they should be intended as cooperatively owned or something similar, as no one is allowed to gain over someone else prostituting.
Is it more clear?
There is a point tho...in principle i believe it is relatively acceptable but TBH i never thought about it in numbers of industry, as you pointed. Now i'm not sure it would be sustainable in terms of matching the demand. Maybe it depends place by place.

Again, i see as all this is controversial but i think the issue is controversial per se. If it was for me, i'd like nobody was in the needing of prostituting her/himself. Personally i dislike the idea of selling sex. I've never had sex with a prostitute either

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: Enlil]
    #28056352 - 11/17/22 03:07 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Grooming of underage children is deplorable by any stretch. I think a majority of people go through some pretty fucked up things in childhood, that being  one of the worst.

Do you feel that since they are groomed, they would be unable to make a coherent decision to enter the sex industry as an adult? I don't know if it is able to be regulated, as I eluded too, there is no government official that will confirm a condom placement, prior to sex. And some extra $$$ to go bareback.....sure it happens.

Making them criminals not good.
Free wheeling pimping not good.
Legal brothels not good.

Human sexuality although natural  is beyond strange and the behaviors associated with it may be the reason why regulation would be so difficult....its just a one off thing.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: iggyhiggy]
    #28056353 - 11/17/22 03:08 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I'll break it down for you...

If no one can gain from prostitution other than the prostitute, it means that no one can sell advertising to a prostitute.  This means a prostitute can't advertise other than by standing on the street.  No one can rent a prostitute a room to work in.  No one can help a prostitute market or create branding.  No one can run a website that prostitutes advertise on.  No one can sell condoms to a prostitute.  No one can offer any services or goods whatsoever that a prostitute might use in her practice unless the good or service is offered for free.

That leaves only street hooking.

Now, I know that none of the above is what you were talking about, but language of a law matters, so how does a law differentiate a pimp from an agent or a marketing assistant or security or any number of other hypothetical "job titles" one could use and still be a pimp in reality?


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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #28056372 - 11/17/22 03:15 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Do you feel that since they are groomed, they would be unable to make a coherent decision to enter the sex industry as an adult?



Whether or not they are "unable" is irrelevant to my point.  The reality is that ungroomed girls do not become adult sex workers very often.  Because of that, grooming of underaged girls is absolutely necessary to have a sex industry.

Given that reality, policies should be put in place that are intended to eliminate the sex industry.  There is no "good" or "healthy" sex industry at this point, and the creation of one would undoubtedly replace human females with machines. 

If we can agree on the above paragraph, then we can talk about solving the likely unsolvable problem of eliminating the sex industry, as we know it, altogether.

I agree that criminalization of prostitution is counterproductive and destructive to the most vulnerable in our society.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: Enlil]
    #28056425 - 11/17/22 03:46 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You've clearly never worked at a zoo.  There may be private zoos that exploit animals for profit, but in the U.S. the vast majority of zoos operate for conservation, study, and protection of animals.  Money from patrons pays for that process, and these zoos absolutely do not make a profit.  They rely on donations to stay afloat.

And you can't compare the sex industry to strip clubs since strip clubs are a part of the sex industry.





And when you go to a zoo, you see a bunch of properly conserved dead eyed animals that spend their entire lives in cages smaller than the environments they evolved in.

Perhaps without the zoo, the animals would be even worse off. Probably dead.

When you go to a strip club, you see a bunch of dead eyed girls that spend their working hours going through the motions of sexual activity with their johns.

Perhaps without the club, they would be even worse off. Probably in the streets.

I assume brothels are very similar. Never been to one.

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Re: Hookers and Johns [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28056428 - 11/17/22 03:48 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

To all who keep saying “90+% of sex workers were groomed, abused, etc...”, what evidence is there for this?

Every study (admittedly, not a plethora) I’ve read that says as much studied incredibly biased populations, such as “shelters” and “refuges” designed to help (victimized) sex workers leave the industry - which obviously omits those who aren’t trying to leave the industry. The nature of sex work makes it difficult to study, leaving a lack of legitimate science & a lot of moral pandering has filled the gap

My own (again, limited) experience suggests there are lots of independent, intelligent, & healthy sexy workers out there.

Edited by dizzy_simmons (11/17/22 03:48 PM)

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