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Invisiblezmicroinquisitor
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] * 1
    #28057293 - 11/17/22 10:40 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

What a gem, like tht barley is there been using pot barley with good success


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OfflineSDO
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: zmicroinquisitor] * 1
    #28057352 - 11/17/22 11:48 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Nice write up I hope this will save 1/2 the total 4 hours a day I spend making 15x bags/~1850 gr of soaked/rinsed (hot tap)/drained/laid out/box fan dried of whole oats.  I'll get back with ya on it with same grains/bag, same LC shot into them side by side in production scale.  Worst case scenario is I waste 15 bags, 25 bucks in grain, a few hours figuring out how to do something faster, better, and more efficient... or not  :smile:  TY for the test idea!

UPDATE - Mon Nov 21 17:30:16 MST 2022:  Test #1 (6x bags, in Presto 23 qt PC) of 1800 gr (1040/760 grams of whole oat/hot tap, 26:19) per bag (5 lb capacity, .2 micron) is now unloaded, cooling.  PC'ed for 2.5 hours @ 15 psi, 8600 elev.  Not many, if any, busted hulls, not much mush, grains a bit darker than I'm accustomed with SOP grains after 24 hours in PC cooling.  Grains did 'dry a bit' after completely cooling, maybe absorbed into hulls. A tiny bit of 'mush' on the bottom of the bags, might need to dial back %H2O by 1% or so.  Grain bags went in at exactly 1800 grams, and came out plus or minus 1 gram.  Trials bags look dirty compared to SOP bags.  Also handling hot was new to me, had to be gentle and was concerned about stretching/ripping them apart.  Light handling was used.  Production % up 20% (could fit easily 6 bags into the PC, vs 5 with presoaked), time reduced by 1.5 hours of work.  I can now schedule in a long day with this 'same day' process, 4 cycles over 13 hours.  This means 2 days to do the work that often would take 1 week.  72 bags each day, 144 bags in 2 long days, and take the rest of the week off.

Next up...  side-by-side inoc of these bags with SOP bags, along with long term storage/viability trials of these trial bags (I've had SOP bags stored for 6-12 months without contam, used, and gone to production).  The key points are immediate use, short and long term production use, as well as viability to customers over time stored, shipped, etc.  So far the no soak/no rinse has saved me 1.5 hours a production cycle.  Keep fingers crossed it all works through production/fruiting/storage and sales.  I pray this works.



I also found these videos useful:

 


UPDATE: Mon Nov 28 10:31:50 MST 2022

I've done trials this past week on no soak, and I'm not happy with the quality, and higher risk of contam/etc.  Going to stick with what I have been doing, the 24 hr cold soak/strain and 5x *HOT* water rinse/1 hour layout and air dry/bag 1800 gr into 6mm thick, .2 micron/PC for 2.5 hour @ 15 psi/24 hour cooling, unpack, seal/shoot and tape, etc.  Better looking bag, less handling of 'hot' materials, and doesn't require me to do this with hood/sterile room procedures.  Just easier, simpler.  Tumbling by hand of very hot bags is not of interest to me long or short term.  Yes, this is most costly on time, no question, but the end result is what I'm after and there is a significant visual differences, and very likely increased risks involved (I'm not going to fruit test to verify my considerations on this topic, so buyer beware on speculation here).

If I value my time at 25 per hour, which is pretty low even for a hobby 'business', my per grain spawn (uninoculated) bag production costs are $7.73 per bag.  So, it would make sense in the Spring or next Fall for me to hire it out instead, and likely will.  Found someone that does this exact process mentioned above for 8 per bag at ~4 lb per bag like mine.  So now with 200+ bags and set for the Winter months, I'll likely change over to purchasing 1600 USD worth of bags instead of making my own.

This has been a good learning experience, and I really appreciate the thread of discussion, helping me realize doing everything myself is not necessarily in my own best interests or to the hobby either.  If I value my time in other aspect of the hobby, or free time, its time to turn this over to someone else with what I consider to be (at least using bags) a better and cleaner, more sterile procedure.


Edited by SDO (11/28/22 10:39 AM)


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OfflineYoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: SDO]
    #28057448 - 11/18/22 01:59 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Thank you guys!

SDO, that'd be awesome to cut back your workload like that!  On the occasions I've done large bags of grain, it seems like they used a little less water than jars. Plus if you use heavy amounts of LC, maybe cut back your hydration water just a few ml?

Good luck!


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Invisiblemilkboy
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] * 1
    #28058223 - 11/18/22 01:27 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the chart! Inspired me to give no prep a shot, gona run a batch of wheat jars today :rockon:


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InvisibleSuckatshrooms
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
    #28058246 - 11/18/22 01:39 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

You got me excited, but then lost me when you listed a volume of oats. I don’t know how much that is! Can you clarify with weights for oats? Thanks for the effort you put into this!
Quote:

YoshiTrainer said:
Below is a chart I put together for no or low prep methods for various grains. To me, soaking, boiling, draining and drying are all a waste of time. For the most part, I measure my grains, add water, then lid/foil and into the PC. For a lot of these grains, it is that simple, for others, a little extra care is needed. With some grains, a pinch of gypsum seems to help, some need rinsing, a few need to be shaken while still hot. These #s are what work for me, you might need small adjustments for your materials. I will also add, smaller jars are more carefree than larger. The values below are grain:water.

Grain        1/4 Pint                Pint              Lb

Millet        2Tbsp:1Tbsp      1 1/3C:160ml
   
Milo          2Tbsp:20ml      1 1/3C:200ml

Oats          2Tbsp:20ml      1 1/3C:200ml

Pearled barley 25g:15ml                                1lb:270ml

Rye            2Tbsp:20ml      1 1/3C:200ml

RGS            2Tbsp:13ml      1 1/3C:150ml

Wheat          2Tbsp:20ml      1 1/3C:200ml

WBR            25g:17ml                                1lb:275ml

WBS            2Tbsp:20ml      1 1/3C:190ml

Millet: a great choice for no prep, cheap and easy to work with. It is 2:1 seed:water by volume, you can let it cool completely in the PC before using.

Milo: Kind of a pain to work with but seems to be good for spawn. Milo benefits from 1tsp of gyp per Qt and a shaking the jar while still hot, after the PC cycle.

Oats: Many love or hate these grains. They are a great price and work really well for hearty spawn. Fairly easy to work with, a warm shake is helpful but not necessary.

Pearled barley: I added this one mostly for edible mycelium TEKs, should be done in bags.

Rye: Another great choice, it is easy to work with,  just grain + water, allow to cool in PC.

RGS: Surprisingly easy to work with, measure  it is a heavy 2 to a light 1 seed:water ratio by volume. I use RGS for high spawn rate with low nutrition.

Wheat: Another classic, fairly easy to work with, it does benefit from a warm shake after PC.

Whole Brown Rice (WBR): Another grain I use mostly for edible mycelium TEK. Should use bags for this one.

Wild Bird Seed (WBS): This tends to be dirty and needs rinsing, especially if it has cracked corn in it. It also takes 1tsp gypsum per Qt and must be shaken while hot.

Rinsing:  For grains that need rinsing, like WBS, you  need cold water, a scale and a strainer. For single jars, add your grains to the jar and weigh it (jar + dried grain). To that # add the weight of the water you will be adding (1ml=1g). The sum will be the final weight of your jar.  Rinse with cold water to your heart's content, drain, don't worry about drying. I have a small mesh strainer the fits inside the jars mouth to drain with. Reweigh your jar and top with water til you reach your right weight (jar + dried grain weight + water weight). As an example, if your jar and dry grains weigh 550g and you are adding 200ml water (200g), your jar should weigh 750g after rinsing/draining then topping off.  If you normally make multiple jars, consider with the first round weighing them all and taking the average. Just use that average for this and the next runs.



Some final thoughts, no prep will save you tons of time and effort. The grains will not come out evenly hydrated, some will be drier, a few will have burst, some even leave a film in the jar,  it is all fine. Of the grains tested, millet, rye and RGS were the easiest to work with then oats, wheat, milo and WBS. Also, maybe anecdotal but grain mixes, seem to work better, two I use a lot are:

I start most of my agar on this grain mix, in  a quarter pint jar, add

1 Tbsp oats
1 Tbsp rye
20ml water

PC 90min @15psi

Here it was dumped on MS Starry Night agar



I G2G the quarter pints to these pints then use them to bulk or you could G2G to quarts.

In a pint
2 Tbsp oats
2 Tbsp rye
2 Tbsp millet
2 Tbsp RGS
66ml water

PC 90 min @ 15 psi



With MS Starry Night



I hope you will try a jar of no prep your next PC cycle and let me know how it works out.

Cheers!

Some conversions

1 1/3 C = 236.59 ml
2 Tbsp = 29.57 ml
1 lb = 454.59 g

Some pics:

Millet

1/4 Pt

(photo coming)

Pt w/Fp+



Qt w/PExAPEU



Milo

1/4 Pt w Fp+



W/MS Starry Night



Pt w/Bell capped subaeruginosa



Qt w/PExAPEU unfortunately I started to shake the jar right before the pic.



Oats

1/4 Pt w MS Starry Night



Oats dumped on Natalensis agar



Pt w/Alutacea



Qt w/Subtropicalis



Pearled barley

Lb w/ Subtropicalis



Rye

1/4 Pt w/Fp+



Pt w/Yellow subaeruginosa



Qt w/PExAPEU



RGS

1/4 Pt w/Pan bisporus



1/2 Pt w/Pan 'Trop Aus'



Pt w/MS Starry Night



Qt w/Pan bisporus



Wheat

1/4 Pt w/MS Starry Night



W/Yellow subaeruginosa



W/Natalensis



Pt w/Gymnopilus purpuratus



Qt w/PExAPEU



WBR

Lb w/Subtropicalis



WBS
1/4 Pt w/PExAPEU



W/Yellow subaeruginosa



W/Subtropicalis


Pt w/W/Yellow subaeruginosa



Qt w/PExAPEU






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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: Suckatshrooms] * 3
    #28058397 - 11/18/22 03:15 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

wat possessed you to quote the entire OP for that comment :shrug:


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OfflineYoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: bakedbeings]
    #28058713 - 11/18/22 05:41 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Good luck Milkboy, shake them hot if you can, it makes life MUCH easier!

Suckatshrooms, I did volume measurements because they are much faster, especially if you are doing multiple jars. Near the bottom of the post, before all the pictures, I put metric conversions for volume. Good luck!

Some conversions

1 1/3 C = 236.59 ml
2 Tbsp = 29.57 ml
1 lb = 454.59 g


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Invisiblemilkboy
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
    #28058735 - 11/18/22 05:52 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Will do! Did 3 no prep, and 3 with a pre wash. In the PC now...


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Invisiblemilkboy
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: milkboy]
    #28059076 - 11/18/22 08:49 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Think I may have used to much water... bottom 1/4 inch of all my jars are burst grain cakes that dont wana break up :shrug:


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OfflineYoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: milkboy]
    #28059110 - 11/18/22 09:09 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

I'm sorry to hear that Milkboy, I do get some burst grains but not a solid layer of them. Maybe cut back 5ml of water for your materials? If the wheat was really dirty, you could try rinsing it first. Hopefully your jars will colonize fine and you wont be disuaded from trying no-prep again.

Good luck!


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Invisiblemilkboy
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] * 1
    #28059453 - 11/19/22 03:34 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Well half of them I did rinse so I dont think it was that, no worries will try again in a few days.


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OfflineBirkenSaft
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: milkboy] * 1
    #28059503 - 11/19/22 05:59 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Hey Sry guys maybe im dumb xD

How much Water did i need for how much Rye grain in a how big jar?

how big does my glass have to be?
How much rye must go in there then? Half full or 3/4 or completely full?
And then how much water per how much rye?

From the table above I can not figure out
Sorry I am not a native english speaker


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OfflineYoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: BirkenSaft] * 1
    #28059742 - 11/19/22 09:14 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Hello BirkenSaft,

Pint jar = 473ml
Quart jar = 946ml

For a pint jar add 2/3C rye = 160ml and 100ml water

For  quart jar add 1 1/3C rye = 320ml and 200ml water.

Good luck!


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OfflineYoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: milkboy] * 1
    #28059752 - 11/19/22 09:22 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Quote:

milkboy said:
Well half of them I did rinse so I dont think it was that, no worries will try again in a few days.




I wonder if heating of the PC makes a difference? I usually put mine a little over medium to bring to boil. I used to get cracked jars on occasion and this was my remedy. Maybe a slower rate to boil might allow the grains to absorb water better, kind of like a mini boil? Did you use gypsum?

Thank you again for your input Milkboy, your data will help get the kinks out!


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Invisiblemilkboy
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
    #28059785 - 11/19/22 09:47 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Interesting idea, I do run my stove cranked all the way up through venting and building of pressure so maybe your on to something...

To be clear I used 1 and 1/3 cup of wheat and 200g (ml) water for my qt jars, Ill snap a pic of the jars later if I remember

Edit.


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Edited by milkboy (11/19/22 10:09 AM)


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OfflineYoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: milkboy]
    #28059834 - 11/19/22 10:27 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Hmmmm interesting, maybe it is the heating? None of the grains I've run ended like that.

Edit: I used red and it looks like you used white wheat but I don't think that makes a difference.

Edit#2: With wheat, id guess you wouldnt need to rinse, unless you noticed a lot of chaff or other debris with your last batch.


Edited by YoshiTrainer (11/19/22 11:33 AM)


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Invisiblemilkboy
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] * 1
    #28060061 - 11/19/22 12:52 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Im pretty sure its red wheat actually (not that I think it matters), the light is just deceptive. Yea I agree rinse isnt necessary water is always clear, just a habbit I had from using oats for so long.

Interested to see if the heat change helps makes sense that it could. Only other thing is maybe my measurements were way off (outside the margin of error maybe?), 1 and 1/3 cups of wheat weighed out to about 270g in each jar with a margin of 10-20grams.


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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: milkboy] * 1
    #28060243 - 11/19/22 03:03 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Did a few Qts of no prep with WBR last night, turned out just fine and saved a lot of time. Just a little clumping on the bottom. :thumbup:


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OfflineYoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: WellDuYaPunk]
    #28060449 - 11/19/22 05:29 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Thank you for the report WellDuYa, I'm glad it worked out for you!


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Invisiblemilkboy
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
    #28062313 - 11/20/22 07:26 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Well... it happened again. Used medium heat and same result. Ran a 2nd jar with 175ml water, same shit just slightly less thick of a layer, so Im thinking its just to much water. Im blaming the wheat though


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