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OfflineIce9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28328505 - 05/21/23 09:00 AM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Pretty telling that FWs source for most of his claims are statements from Elon. a guy with a pretty big interest in NOT APPEARING to be the only social to comply with Turkey's Draconian and illegal anti-free speech laws.


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

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OfflineSulfurshelfsean
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Ice9]
    #28328580 - 05/21/23 09:55 AM (11 months, 22 days ago)

It's pure double speak at this point. War is peace. Censorship is freedom.Elon is not pussy. Baaaah raaam  yeeew


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Kryptos]
    #28328836 - 05/21/23 01:47 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
So anti-war you support a foreign invasion of a sovereign nation.



I don't support the invasion, but I'm one the few who appears able to explain it.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
So anti-censorship you defend Elmo buckling to the Turkish government.



I don't support censorship of the Turkish government, but I'm one the few who appears able to explain it.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineIce9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28328848 - 05/21/23 01:58 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
So anti-war you support a foreign invasion of a sovereign nation.



I don't support the invasion, but I'm one the few who appears able to explain it.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
So anti-censorship you defend Elmo buckling to the Turkish government.



I don't support censorship of the Turkish government, but I'm one the few who appears able to explain it.




What does this even mean?  What are explaining?  This is the most nonsensical reply from you yet.


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Ice9]
    #28328857 - 05/21/23 02:06 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
Please provide proof that other social medias were complying with this rule and complied before Twitter.  Statement from known dissemblers do not count.  I want actual evidence, perhaps statements from those other social media companies, or a site like shivas.wisdom posted that tracks this stuff.  You have made this assertion several times here and here.  As such, the burden of proof is on you.  I'm waiting :popcorn:
.
.
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Pretty telling that FWs source for most of his claims are statements from Elon.



Sure.  You know I can always back up my claims.

This article has a quote from one of the four accounts Turkey censored:

Quote:

he (Güven) told the Turkish Minute that Erdogan’s government has tried to throttle his reach any way that it can: “It was made impossible to find my videos when people searched for them on YouTube in Turkey. Now comes the Twitter decision. Facebook has already been blocking my videos for the past two years.




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineIce9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28328863 - 05/21/23 02:08 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

So are youtube and Twitter facebook the only 3 socials in Turkey?  Any of the other guys, you said four people?


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Ice9]
    #28328867 - 05/21/23 02:12 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
What does this even mean?  What are explaining?  This is the most nonsensical reply from you yet.



I'm saying I was able to explain why Twitter censored four accounts in Turkey.  Because the entire Twitter site may have been throttled otherwise. Turkey had done that before.  I don't support Turkey's decision to censor those accounts.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Ice9]
    #28328869 - 05/21/23 02:13 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Do they have shroomery in Turkey?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Ice9]
    #28328876 - 05/21/23 02:16 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
So are youtube and Twitter facebook the only 3 socials in Turkey?  Any of the other guys, you said four people?



"OK Fal, you were right that Turkey censored other social media accounts, like YouTube and Facebook.  But I need to save some face here and so I need you prove they censored ALL accounts in Turkey!"  :flowstone:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineIce9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28328881 - 05/21/23 02:20 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Ice9 said:
What does this even mean?  What are explaining?  This is the most nonsensical reply from you yet.



I'm saying I was able to explain why Twitter censored four accounts in Turkey.  Because the entire Twitter site may have been throttled otherwise. Turkey had done that before.  I don't support Turkey's decision to censor those accounts.




Everyone can read a news article and see the ostensible reason why Twitter complied.  You being able to "explain" that is not anything unusual.  Your posts are still nonsensical, and very egotistical.  The difference between you and the other posters on this matter, is that you accept the reasons given as valid, and within the bounds of free speech, and almost everyone else here considers capitulation to laws of this nature to be the antithesis of free speech.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
So anti-war you support a foreign invasion of a sovereign nation.



I don't support the invasion, but I'm one the few who appears able to explain it.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
So anti-censorship you defend Elmo buckling to the Turkish government.



I don't support censorship of the Turkish government, but I'm one the few who appears able to explain it.




--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

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OfflineIce9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28328886 - 05/21/23 02:22 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Ice9 said:
So are youtube and Twitter facebook the only 3 socials in Turkey?  Any of the other guys, you said four people?



"OK Fal, you were right that Turkey censored other social media accounts, like YouTube and Facebook.  But I need to save some face here and so I need you prove they censored ALL accounts in Turkey!"  :flowstone:




Close, but try again.  I have from the beginning assumed that all social media companies comply to anti-free speech rules, these companies operate in china and other such places after all.  I just appreciate you looking up things for me that I can't be bothered to waste time on.  :shrug:


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28328888 - 05/21/23 02:25 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Pretty telling that FW managed to respond to nearly everyone except my post giving real numbers on Elon-Twitter's cooperation with government requests to censor and inform.



The source of your information is Lumen Database.

What do you think explains the increase in Government censorship requests after Elon took over and said he wants the Government out of Twitter?

It seems logical that Twitter is now reporting ALL US Government censorship requests, whereas before it only reported the most egregious ones.

If you disagree, what's your explanation for the large increase in reported censorship requests?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Ice9]
    #28328889 - 05/21/23 02:28 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
Everyone can read a news article and see the ostensible reason why Twitter complied.  You being able to "explain" that is not anything unusual.



I'm glad you could see it.  Kryptos apparently didn't.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineIce9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28328896 - 05/21/23 02:35 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Pretty telling that FW managed to respond to nearly everyone except my post giving real numbers on Elon-Twitter's cooperation with government requests to censor and inform.



The source of your information is Lumen Database.

What do you think explains the increase in Government censorship requests after Elon took over and said he wants the Government out of Twitter?

It seems logical that Twitter is now reporting ALL US Government censorship requests, whereas before it only reported the most egregious ones.

If you disagree, what's your explanation for the large increase in reported censorship requests?




shivas already answered this question.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I needed to go back and address this point:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
[...] the difference being no submission to The Lumen database in 2023.  The purpose of that database seems to be to flag unjust censorship to the general public, though I'm not sure that's important if Twitter is fighting censorship in court.




Transparency.

The scope of the project is not so narrow as you suggest - it's purpose is to collect and analyze requests to remove material from the web, both legitimate and questionable. Reporting takedown notices as they happen to a respectable third party means we don't have to wait until Twitter hopefully issues a court challenge weeks (years?!?) later to find out - and it's a pretty basic step for an organization like Twitter to take if it wants to be transparent. The bigger question isn't why transparency is important, but rather why would Twitter decide to opt out of voluntary reporting?

I have a suggestion: Twitter Abruptly Stops Reporting On Gov’t Requests As Data Reveals Elon Obeys Gov’t Demands Way More Often Than Old Twitter.

Quick and dirty takeaway?
Elon-Twitter stopped releasing transparency reports like this one soon after his purchase. Thankfully, Russel Brandom over at Rest of World, realized that Twitter has still been automatically reporting government takedown notices to the good folks at LumenDatabase… and from that he found Elon-Twitter has been way more compliant in giving in to exactly what governments are demanding, both for removing content and for handing over information - and from the look of things governments are fucking thrilled with this, seeing as the numbers of demands went way, way up.





--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28328911 - 05/21/23 02:55 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Pretty telling that FW managed to respond to nearly everyone except my post giving real numbers on Elon-Twitter's cooperation with government requests to censor and inform.



The source of your information is Lumen Database.

What do you think explains the increase in Government censorship requests after Elon took over and said he wants the Government out of Twitter?

It seems logical that Twitter is now reporting ALL US Government censorship requests, whereas before it only reported the most egregious ones.

If you disagree, what's your explanation for the large increase in reported censorship requests?



Yes, my source of information is Lumen Database. You, on the other hand, have not provided any source beyond unverified claims made by Elon-Twitter.

Given that Elon-Twitter near-immediately stopped releasing internal transparency reports, and quickly followed that up by ending automatic reporting to Lumen Database, it doesn't seem logical to me that this is due to greater transparency by Elon-Twitter. In fact, your guess seems to fly in the face of any logical process that doesn't include the assumption that Elon's statements are necessarily true.

As I already stated in the post you responded to, the explanation for both Elon-Twitter's reduced transparency and for a significant increase in gov't requests is because (as the available data shows) acceptance of these requests has increased under Elon-Twitter.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28328961 - 05/21/23 03:45 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
So anti-war you support a foreign invasion of a sovereign nation.



I don't support the invasion, but I'm one the few who appears able to explain it.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
So anti-censorship you defend Elmo buckling to the Turkish government.



I don't support censorship of the Turkish government, but I'm one the few who appears able to explain it.




So anti-war that you have no problem explaining the necessity for a war.

So anti-censorship that you can explain exactly why the censorship needs to occur.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Pretty telling that FW managed to respond to nearly everyone except my post giving real numbers on Elon-Twitter's cooperation with government requests to censor and inform.



The source of your information is Lumen Database.

What do you think explains the increase in Government censorship requests after Elon took over and said he wants the Government out of Twitter?

It seems logical that Twitter is now reporting ALL US Government censorship requests, whereas before it only reported the most egregious ones.

If you disagree, what's your explanation for the large increase in reported censorship requests?




Governments know that Elmo is gonna bend over the moment they ask, so they stepped up their requests.

Just as logical, if you ask me.

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28329029 - 05/21/23 05:00 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Ice9 said:
What does this even mean?  What are explaining?  This is the most nonsensical reply from you yet.



I'm saying I was able to explain why Twitter censored four accounts in Turkey.  Because the entire Twitter site may have been throttled otherwise. Turkey had done that before.  I don't support Turkey's decision to censor those accounts.




Why would you need to explain that? Thats what Twitter said in the press release.

What yoj haven’t explained is why you don’t have any criticism for Twitter censoring those accounts. I understand Twitter’s justification, but it’s not a free speech decision. It’s a business decision.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28329056 - 05/21/23 05:25 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Yes, my source of information is Lumen Database.

Given that Elon-Twitter near-immediately stopped releasing internal transparency reports, and quickly followed that up by ending automatic reporting to Lumen Database, it doesn't seem logical to me that this is due to greater transparency by Elon-Twitter.



Then why is Lumen seeing MORE if Twitter isn't giving it to them???

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
...the explanation for both Elon-Twitter's reduced transparency and for a significant increase in gov't requests is because (as the available data shows) acceptance of these requests has increased under Elon-Twitter.



I still wonder why Twitter is submitting more to Lumen then?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28329136 - 05/21/23 07:05 PM (11 months, 22 days ago)

When governments asked the old Twitter to block political figures and journalists they refused and sometimes they got banned for it. Fortunately they didn't have to worry about retaliation against their SpaceX project because they had no SpaceX project, they were just a social media company.

Those days are gone. Elon doesn't care about free speech. He wants to turn Twitter into the ulitmate every app that no one asked for so he can exploit the user base in every way possible.


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Kizzle]
    #28329334 - 05/21/23 10:45 PM (11 months, 21 days ago)

To be fair, pre Elon Twitter wanted that too. They were pretty successful, they sold for like 80% more than they were worth. The difference being that Twitter wasn't just a play thing for a billionaire to jerk himself off to, they had to produce a product. One part of that product was to keep things sane so they didn't get a shit image. Elon has said he doesn't care about that, but we already know that isn't true, asides from him making poor business decisions he also censors anything he personally doesn't like.


--------------------
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