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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28325501 - 05/18/23 09:02 PM (1 year, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
It's disingenuous to pretend that there's no qualitative difference between Twitter's response in 2014 and now. Allow me to meticulously spell them out for you:

In 2014, the Turkish government blocked access to Twitter - the purported legal basis for the ban is three court orders (none of which were provided to Twitter prior to the ban).
In 2023, the Turkish government allegedly threatened to block access to Twitter - the purported legal basis for the ban is five court orders (all of which were provided to Twitter prior to the threat).

In 2014, Twitter files court challenges within 6 days of receiving notice, supplies all legally disclosable information about the withholdings to www.lumendatabase.org, and enacts the Country Withheld Content tool in the interim.
In 2023, Twitter files (4 out of 5) court challenges weeks after the most recent court order, stops disclosing information to the transparency database one month prior, and enacts the Country Withheld Content tool in the interim.

In 2014, Twitter has the court orders reversed in two days.
In 2023, Twitter has one of those four challenges rejected, and no reversals, after a week.


These are markedly different responses to very similar events, and acting otherwise is disenguous.



Your first example says Twitter got shut down in 2014.  Twitter tried to prevent that from happening again in 2023.

Your second example says Twitter used the Country Withheld Content tool in 2014 and 2023, the difference being no submission to The Lumen database in 2023.  The purpose of that database seems to be to flag unjust censorship to the general public, though I'm not sure that's important if Twitter is fighting censorship in court.

Your third example only shows how fast Turkey's courts were in 2014 compared to 2023.


Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
But that Tweet shows there WAS a throttling threat:

Quote:

We were in negotiation with the Turkish Government throughout last week, who made clear to us Twitter was the ONLY social media service not complying in full with existing court orders.

We received what we believed to be a final threat to throttle the service - after several such warnings - and so in order to keep Twitter available over the election weekend, took action on four accounts and 409 Tweets identified by court order.

We communicated our concerns about freedom of expression directly.

We will continue to object in court, as we have done with all requests, but no further legal action was possible before the start of voting.







No, although the Tweet states "We received what we believed to be a final threat to throttle the service", it doesn't show any such threat. There is no explicit reference to a final threat to throttle service in the communications provided by Twitter:





Don't you have something against make believe?



That letter shows a VERY clear threat to me.  Do you really think Turkey would send such a letter, but think, "well, if Twitter ignores our letter, we won't do anything about it"?


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28325514 - 05/18/23 09:11 PM (1 year, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
As shivas.wisdom just pointed out, countries can throttle content they don't want.



Please don't put words in my mouth. You have a habit of misrepresenting to suit your purpose, so either quote me directly or refrain from using my name in support of your claims.



I'm not putting words in your mouth.  You pointed it out right here:

https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/a/2014/challenging-the-access-ban-in-turkey
Quote:

It’s now been six days since the Turkish government blocked access to Twitter.




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Kizzle]
    #28325520 - 05/18/23 09:14 PM (1 year, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
He's complying with the laws of the countries in which Twitter operates.  If he doesn't, Twitter will be shut down completely in those countries.



Only if the dictators keep winning which is what Elon intends to make sure keeps happening. How many tweets has Elon put out criticizing being coerced to do this? He's got a giant corporate megaphone that millions can hear, and he's just like, "Gotta do it:shrug:"



As I already noted, he's fighting the censorship in Turkey.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Kryptos]
    #28325523 - 05/18/23 09:17 PM (1 year, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Government never should have told Twitter to censor the Hunter Biden laptop story.




But they could, and because they are the government, see above, twitter must comply without question. After all, twitter must follow the US laws.



There wasn't any laws saying Twitter had to silence the Hunter Biden laptop story.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
And unless you happen to be the entire US government, I don't think you get to question any of this.

After all:

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Oh I see so if there is a law banning certain types of speech, then the government should be able to tell Twitter to get rid of that speech and Twitter better fuckin comply before they just get shut down.






Exactly.  For example, if Twitter allowed child porn, they'd be shut down.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineIce9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28325531 - 05/18/23 09:20 PM (1 year, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Government never should have told Twitter to censor the Hunter Biden laptop story.




But they could, and because they are the government, see above, twitter must comply without question. After all, twitter must follow the US laws.



There wasn't any laws saying Twitter had to silence the Hunter Biden laptop story.






You are ok with the government making laws against speech that targets those currently in power and enforcing those laws against a private company.  :shrug:  I think in this entire thread, that's the most anti-freedom stance you've taken in order to defend Elon, and you've adopted some real awkward positions in order to 100% support his actions at Twitter.


--------------------
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Offlinekoods
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28325563 - 05/18/23 09:54 PM (1 year, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Government never should have told Twitter to censor the Hunter Biden laptop story.




But they could, and because they are the government, see above, twitter must comply without question. After all, twitter must follow the US laws.



There wasn't any laws saying Twitter had to silence the Hunter Biden laptop story.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
And unless you happen to be the entire US government, I don't think you get to question any of this.

After all:

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Oh I see so if there is a law banning certain types of speech, then the government should be able to tell Twitter to get rid of that speech and Twitter better fuckin comply before they just get shut down.






Exactly.  For example, if Twitter allowed child porn, they'd be shut down.




You think there isn’t child porn on Twitter?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Ice9]
    #28325566 - 05/18/23 10:00 PM (1 year, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Government never should have told Twitter to censor the Hunter Biden laptop story.




But they could, and because they are the government, see above, twitter must comply without question. After all, twitter must follow the US laws.



There wasn't any laws saying Twitter had to silence the Hunter Biden laptop story.






You are ok with the government making laws against speech that targets those currently in power and enforcing those laws against a private company.  :shrug:  I think in this entire thread, that's the most anti-freedom stance you've taken in order to defend Elon, and you've adopted some real awkward positions in order to 100% support his actions at Twitter.



No, I'm not ok with it.


--------------------
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28325596 - 05/18/23 10:35 PM (1 year, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
But that Tweet shows there WAS a throttling threat:

"We received what we believed to be a final threat to throttle the service




No, although the Tweet states "We received what we believed to be a final threat to throttle the service", it doesn't show any such threat. There is no explicit reference to a final threat to throttle service in the communications provided by Twitter:





Don't you have something against make believe?



That letter shows a VERY clear threat to me.  Do you really think Turkey would send such a letter, but think, "well, if Twitter ignores our letter, we won't do anything about it"?




Nothing in that letter is an explicit threat to throttle service in Turkey. You're free to interpret an implicit threat, if you wish, but there's a reason Twitter used the qualifier "we believed" in their statement.

I would be very interested in a new Twitter files release for all documents pertinent to this decision - both internal and with the Turkish state. What process allowed court orders to sit both unacted and unchallenged for anywhere from a few weeks to five years? What communication resulted in the sudden urgency to act on these old decisions right before an election? The materials released thus far don't provide sufficient explanation, imo. At best, this was the result of Twitter not being very proactive in defending free expression - at worst, it's a cover-your-ass excuse for conceding to state censorship. Of course, for the same reasons I'm interested, I don't expect Elon-Twitter to offer transparency in this matter.

That being said, I'm also curious as to why you're so eager to grant Elon-Twitter the benefit of the doubt here, when you have a history (as this very threads OP demonstrates) of ceaselessly questioning similar decisions made by social media in the past.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28325657 - 05/18/23 11:45 PM (1 year, 19 hours ago)

I needed to go back and address this point:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
[...] the difference being no submission to The Lumen database in 2023.  The purpose of that database seems to be to flag unjust censorship to the general public, though I'm not sure that's important if Twitter is fighting censorship in court.




Transparency.

The scope of the project is not so narrow as you suggest - it's purpose is to collect and analyze requests to remove material from the web, both legitimate and questionable. Reporting takedown notices as they happen to a respectable third party means we don't have to wait until Twitter hopefully issues a court challenge weeks (years?!?) later to find out - and it's a pretty basic step for an organization like Twitter to take if it wants to be transparent. The bigger question isn't why transparency is important, but rather why would Twitter decide to opt out of voluntary reporting?

I have a suggestion: Twitter Abruptly Stops Reporting On Gov’t Requests As Data Reveals Elon Obeys Gov’t Demands Way More Often Than Old Twitter.

Quick and dirty takeaway?
Elon-Twitter stopped releasing transparency reports like this one soon after his purchase. Thankfully, Russel Brandom over at Rest of World, realized that Twitter has still been automatically reporting government takedown notices to the good folks at LumenDatabase… and from that he found Elon-Twitter has been way more compliant in giving in to exactly what governments are demanding, both for removing content and for handing over information - and from the look of things governments are fucking thrilled with this, seeing as the numbers of demands went way, way up.


--------------------

Edited by shivas.wisdom (05/18/23 11:51 PM)

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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28325769 - 05/19/23 04:37 AM (1 year, 14 hours ago)

I have a beloved sweet family member that's been conservative but just a nice sweet man until he started believing that the covid vaccine was turning people into Democrat robots essentially and is combative with everyone that doesnt believe that. So am I pissed a government organization is labeling certain things misinformation?  for the most part no


Also have another uncle that is an amazing guy too but he believes that everyone in the family that got vaccinated is currently getting their DNA and RNA rewritten and that we are ALL going to die. This gives him alot of depression and drinks heavily in part because of it.

I don't think it's a first amendment issue because social media companies are private companies that can set whatever guidelines they want. You can go out and make signs and chants and go protest. No one is stopping you from free speech you just can't do it on your favorite companies site because of the terms you agree to, to maintain their site.


--------------------
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28327450 - 05/20/23 10:50 AM (11 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The primary concern is that the censorship might apply to people Falcon would prefer not be censored, instead of the people that Falcon would prefer be censored.




What does falcon want to be censored?


--------------------

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: starfire_xes]
    #28327524 - 05/20/23 12:23 PM (11 months, 23 days ago)

Montana is trying to ban TicToc to "protect Montanans' personal and private data from the Chinese Communist Party." Users would not be penalized, but platforms such as Apple and Google as well as TicToc would be fined $10,000 per day. Can't tell if the state officials are sincere and well intentioned, or it's a publicity stunt.

The usual pro and con arguments apply, and it's probably unconstitutional on First Amendment grounds.
I don't trust the Chinese government, but doubt that the CCP has ever considered even for a moment Montanans' personal and private data.


--------------------
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: starfire_xes]
    #28327625 - 05/20/23 02:05 PM (11 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
The primary concern is that the censorship might apply to people Falcon would prefer not be censored, instead of the people that Falcon would prefer be censored.




What does falcon want to be censored?




Whoever Turkey tells him to censor, for one thing. Based on government censorship requests that shivas posted, looks like anytime some goverbnment official tells Elmo to ban someone, he trips all over himself to do it. As long as it's a vaguely autocratic regime (I guess the others don't ask for censorship very often)

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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Kryptos]
    #28327676 - 05/20/23 03:06 PM (11 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
The primary concern is that the censorship might apply to people Falcon would prefer not be censored, instead of the people that Falcon would prefer be censored.




What does falcon want to be censored?




Whoever Turkey tells him to censor, for one thing. Based on government censorship requests that shivas posted, looks like anytime some goverbnment official tells Elmo to ban someone, he trips all over himself to do it. As long as it's a vaguely autocratic regime (I guess the others don't ask for censorship very often)



That's just the kind of strategy that real freedom of speech warriors apply to such situations.


--------------------


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Sulfurshelfsean]
    #28327827 - 05/20/23 05:17 PM (11 months, 23 days ago)

I find it highly amusing watching FW shapeshift his position on free speech to match whatever Elon has decided to do with twitter at any given time.  It is quite bizarre to so utterly lack a spine and any sort of conviction.


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Kryptos]
    #28328216 - 05/21/23 12:56 AM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
The primary concern is that the censorship might apply to people Falcon would prefer not be censored, instead of the people that Falcon would prefer be censored.



What does falcon want to be censored?



Great question starfire!  :hi5:

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Whoever Turkey tells him to censor, for one thing. Based on government censorship requests that shivas posted, looks like anytime some goverbnment official tells Elmo to ban someone, he trips all over himself to do it.



First of all, as I already told you, I'm opposed to censorship on social media.  And I'm opposed to war.  It's odd that you keep make believing things about me to make yourself look cool until you're called out.  You can do better than lie.  :shrug:

Secondly, as was previously pointed out:
Quote:

Twitter said:
We were in negotiation with the Turkish Government throughout last week, who made clear to us Twitter was the ONLY social media service not complying in full with existing court orders.



So Twitter was the only social media company going against the Turkish rules, until Turkey make it very clear Twitter also needs to obey Turkish rules.

So thirdly, saying that Elon "trips all over himself to do it" (censor) is yet another lie.


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Ice9]
    #28328217 - 05/21/23 01:05 AM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
I find it highly amusing watching FW shapeshift his position on free speech to match whatever Elon has decided to do with twitter at any given time.  It is quite bizarre to so utterly lack a spine and any sort of conviction.



I've make it clear many times that I'm opposed to censorship on social media.

I explained why Twitter censored things (to comply with Turkish rules), just like ALL other social media companies had already done before Twitter.  The difference being that Twitter was the longest holdout, and are currently challenging Turkey's censorship.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28328282 - 05/21/23 03:47 AM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
The primary concern is that the censorship might apply to people Falcon would prefer not be censored, instead of the people that Falcon would prefer be censored.



What does falcon want to be censored?



Great question starfire!  :hi5:

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Whoever Turkey tells him to censor, for one thing. Based on government censorship requests that shivas posted, looks like anytime some goverbnment official tells Elmo to ban someone, he trips all over himself to do it.



First of all, as I already told you, I'm opposed to censorship on social media.  And I'm opposed to war.  It's odd that you keep make believing things about me to make yourself look cool until you're called out.  You can do better than lie.  :shrug:

Secondly, as was previously pointed out:
Quote:

Twitter said:
We were in negotiation with the Turkish Government throughout last week, who made clear to us Twitter was the ONLY social media service not complying in full with existing court orders.



So Twitter was the only social media company going against the Turkish rules, until Turkey make it very clear Twitter also needs to obey Turkish rules.

So thirdly, saying that Elon "trips all over himself to do it" (censor) is yet another lie.




So anti-war you support a foreign invasion of a sovereign nation. So anti-censorship you defend Elmo buckling to the Turkish government.

There were no lies there. Twitter had a spine back in 2014, now they have Elmo. And Elmo has you.

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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28328484 - 05/21/23 08:41 AM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Pretty telling that FW managed to respond to nearly everyone except my post giving real numbers on Elon-Twitter's cooperation with government requests to censor and inform.


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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28328500 - 05/21/23 08:57 AM (11 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Ice9 said:
I find it highly amusing watching FW shapeshift his position on free speech to match whatever Elon has decided to do with twitter at any given time.  It is quite bizarre to so utterly lack a spine and any sort of conviction.



I've make it clear many times that I'm opposed to censorship on social media.

I explained why Twitter censored things (to comply with Turkish rules), just like ALL other social media companies had already done before Twitter.  The difference being that Twitter was the longest holdout, and are currently challenging Turkey's censorship.




Please provide proof that other social medias were complying with this rule and complied before Twitter.  Statement from known dissemblers do not count.  I want actual evidence, perhaps statements from those other social media companies, or a site like shivas.wisdom posted that tracks this stuff.  You have made this assertion several times here and here.  As such, the burden of proof is on you.  I'm waiting :popcorn:


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

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