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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#28325028 - 05/18/23 03:18 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said: There's at least one other option outside your forced dichotomy, Twitter could also use their corporate weight to challenge that law in a Turkish court on freedom of expression grounds. How do I know this? Because it happened in 2014:
https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/a/2014/challenging-the-access-ban-in-turkey https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/a/2014/victory-for-free-expression-in-turkish-court
It's the same as what we've seen in India, where Twitter had previously challenged various laws in court before falling into step post-Elon - he's been vocal about a policy of 'free speech' that aligns with the laws of the countries in which Twitter operates.
That doesn't mean old Twitter would reliably protect free expression either - it's a company seeking to be profitable; always has been - but it certainly doesn't lend itself to your continued belief that Elin-Twitter is any different from all the other social media companies.
And what do you know? Twitter did exactly that, as you just pointed out.
ALL companies are required to obey the laws in the countries in which they operate. Twitter isn't alone in this. If you think they're the only company following the law, you are being very sadly misled.
Twitter clearly does have more freedom than other social media companies. I realize CrimethInc is still banned, but that's why I'm asking if they're even trying to get back on Twitter, or if they like to play victim? As I previously pointed out, there are plenty of anarchist sites on Twitter, and I suspect if Crimethinc tried to get reinstated, they probably could.
Absolutely disingenuous response - did you read both links before weighing in? Because, as revealed in the second blog post, Twitter only complied with the Turkish state request for several days; until the court challenge was heard and the initial decision overturned on freedom of expression grounds.
Contrast that with Elon's stated position: "Like I said, my preference is to hew close to the laws of countries in which Twitter operates. If the citizens want something banned, then pass a law to do so, otherwise it should be allowed." Both positions seek to, first and foremost, protect the company from legal liabilities - but Elon's position of accepting legal censorship without challenge is blatantly at odds with your vacuous claim that "Twitter clearly does have more freedom".
As for your aside about CrimethInc - it's irrelevant. You've gone from claiming a general amnesty was happening to suspended accounts that had not broken the law or engaged in egregious spam, to now asking if banned accounts have made the appropriate absolutions before Elon will grant them access to his sacred realm of free speech. Keep sliding those goalposts if it helps keep your internal contradictions in-line, though!
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Kizzle
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28325070 - 05/18/23 03:49 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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But we know Twitter isn't concerned with economic consequence because Honest Elon said so himself. It's all about the free speech. He would never interfere in an election for profit right?
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Kizzle]
#28325096 - 05/18/23 04:21 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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I’m sure the spacex contract to fly Turkish satellites has no bearing on his decision to bend over for Erdogan.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 3
#28325153 - 05/18/23 04:52 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Yes.
By the way, that article also shows Twitter is fighting the Turkish censorship law.
This is a more recent development that only occured after the election weekend; whereas the initial censorship occurred immediately before the election.
According to Twitter, the five relevant court orders were issued on 29.08.2018, 01.05.2020, 01.05.2020, 17.04.2023, and 20.04.2023. I would question the urgency to act on these old decisions (particularly those from 2018 and 2020) hours before the elections; especially considering there was no explicit reference to the throttling threats in the communications sent by Turkish authorities (provided by Twitter here). Especially when taken into consideration along with other recent developments at Twitter - like the decision (as of 15.04.2023) to stop sharing takedown notices with a transparency database dedicated to tracking such actions.
Maybe it's all on the up-and-up, but it certainly has enough oddities to warrant a healthy amount of doubt. I've seen you be more critical of shroomery bans, and I've seen your unceasing questioning for why those with opinions you agree with would be censored on social media; so your complete inability to challenge Elon-Twitter in these type of situations tolls far louder than your cries of 'free speech'.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Enlil]
#28325160 - 05/18/23 04:57 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Enlil said: I'm saying that you've failed to support your claim that Twitter is subject to Turkish law at all, but you've definitely offered nothing to show that Twitter is required to censor content being sent to Turkey.
Is child porn legal in the US if posted by a country outside the US? Why would a foreign country be subject to US law?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28325189 - 05/18/23 05:18 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Twitter could refuse to censor content even if it is the law. That’s what a free speech absolutist would do.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28325208 - 05/18/23 05:31 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: ALL companies are required to obey the laws in the countries in which they operate. Twitter isn't alone in this. If you think they're the only company following the law, you are being very sadly misled.
Absolutely disingenuous response - did you read both links before weighing in? Because, as revealed in the second blog post, Twitter only complied with the Turkish state request for several days; until the court challenge was heard and the initial decision overturned on freedom of expression grounds.
EXACTLY! Twitter was following the rules of other countries as best they could, just as I pointed out. Nothing 'disingenuous' about that.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Contrast that with Elon's stated position: "Like I said, my preference is to hew close to the laws of countries in which Twitter operates. If the citizens want something banned, then pass a law to do so, otherwise it should be allowed." Both positions seek to, first and foremost, protect the company from legal liabilities - but Elon's position of accepting legal censorship without challenge is blatantly at odds with your vacuous claim that "Twitter clearly does have more freedom".
ALL companies operating in foreign countries have to follow the laws of those countries, not just Twitter. Are you suggesting that Twitter should ignore foreign rules and get shut down completely? How does that help free speech?
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Twitter clearly does have more freedom than other social media companies. I realize CrimethInc is still banned, but that's why I'm asking if they're even trying to get back on Twitter, or if they like to play victim? As I previously pointed out, there are plenty of anarchist sites on Twitter, and I suspect if Crimethinc tried to get reinstated, they probably could.
As for your aside about CrimethInc - it's irrelevant. You've gone from claiming a general amnesty was happening to suspended accounts that had not broken the law or engaged in egregious spam, to now asking if banned accounts have made the appropriate absolutions before Elon will grant them access to his sacred realm of free speech. Keep sliding those goalposts if it helps keep your internal contradictions in-line, though!
1.5 billion Twitter accounts were removed under Musk. All the ones I am aware of that requested reinstatement got it. That's why I'm asking if crimethinc tried to get their account back, or they prefer to cry victim.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Kizzle]
#28325211 - 05/18/23 05:32 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Kizzle said: But we know Twitter isn't concerned with economic consequence because Honest Elon said so himself. It's all about the free speech. He would never interfere in an election for profit right?

He's complying with the laws of the countries in which Twitter operates. If he doesn't, Twitter will be shut down completely in those countries.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28325213 - 05/18/23 05:33 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Enlil said: I'm saying that you've failed to support your claim that Twitter is subject to Turkish law at all, but you've definitely offered nothing to show that Twitter is required to censor content being sent to Turkey.
Is child porn legal in the US if posted by a country outside the US? Why would a foreign country be subject to US law?
No. What makes you think a foreign country is subject to U.S. law?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28325225 - 05/18/23 05:40 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: By the way, that article also shows Twitter is fighting the Turkish censorship law.
This is a more recent development that only occured after the election weekend; whereas the initial censorship occurred immediately before the election.
According to Twitter, the five relevant court orders were issued on 29.08.2018, 01.05.2020, 01.05.2020, 17.04.2023, and 20.04.2023. I would question the urgency to act on these old decisions (particularly those from 2018 and 2020) hours before the elections; especially considering there was no explicit reference to the throttling threats in the communications sent by Turkish authorities (provided by Twitter here).
But that Tweet shows there WAS a throttling threat:
Quote:
We were in negotiation with the Turkish Government throughout last week, who made clear to us Twitter was the ONLY social media service not complying in full with existing court orders.
We received what we believed to be a final threat to throttle the service - after several such warnings - and so in order to keep Twitter available over the election weekend, took action on four accounts and 409 Tweets identified by court order.
We communicated our concerns about freedom of expression directly.
We will continue to object in court, as we have done with all requests, but no further legal action was possible before the start of voting.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I've seen you be more critical of shroomery bans, and I've seen your unceasing questioning for why those with opinions you agree with would be censored on social media; so your complete inability to challenge Elon-Twitter in these type of situations tolls far louder than your cries of 'free speech'.
But Twitter is FIGHTING Turkey on their censorship laws.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Enlil]
#28325228 - 05/18/23 05:45 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Is child porn legal in the US if posted by a country outside the US? Why would a foreign country be subject to US law?
No. What makes you think a foreign country is subject to U.S. law?
As shivas.wisdom just pointed out, countries can throttle content they don't want. So either Twitter ban 4 accounts in Turkey, or Turkey shuts everything down. I think the former is the better option, and Twitter is fighting Turkey on this.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28325258 - 05/18/23 06:09 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: And what do you know? Twitter did exactly that, as you just pointed out.
ALL companies are required to obey the laws in the countries in which they operate. Twitter isn't alone in this. If you think they're the only company following the law, you are being very sadly misled.
Absolutely disingenuous response - did you read both links before weighing in? Because, as revealed in the second blog post, Twitter only complied with the Turkish state request for several days; until the court challenge was heard and the initial decision overturned on freedom of expression grounds.
EXACTLY! Twitter was following the rules of other countries as best they could, just as I pointed out. Nothing 'disingenuous' about that.
It's disingenuous to pretend that there's no qualitative difference between Twitter's response in 2014 and now. Allow me to meticulously spell them out for you:
In 2014, the Turkish government blocked access to Twitter - the purported legal basis for the ban is three court orders (none of which were provided to Twitter prior to the ban). In 2023, the Turkish government allegedly threatened to block access to Twitter - the purported legal basis for the ban is five court orders (all of which were provided to Twitter prior to the threat).
In 2014, Twitter files court challenges within 6 days of receiving notice, supplies all legally disclosable information about the withholdings to www.lumendatabase.org, and enacts the Country Withheld Content tool in the interim. In 2023, Twitter files (4 out of 5) court challenges weeks after the most recent court order, stops disclosing information to the transparency database one month prior, and enacts the Country Withheld Content tool in the interim.
In 2014, Twitter has the court orders reversed in two days. In 2023, Twitter has one of those four challenges rejected, and no reversals, after a week.
These are markedly different responses to very similar events, and acting otherwise is disenguous.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28325285 - 05/18/23 06:32 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: According to Twitter, the five relevant court orders were issued on 29.08.2018, 01.05.2020, 01.05.2020, 17.04.2023, and 20.04.2023. I would question the urgency to act on these old decisions (particularly those from 2018 and 2020) hours before the elections; especially considering there was no explicit reference to the throttling threats in the communications sent by Turkish authorities (provided by Twitter here).
But that Tweet shows there WAS a throttling threat:
Quote:
We were in negotiation with the Turkish Government throughout last week, who made clear to us Twitter was the ONLY social media service not complying in full with existing court orders.
We received what we believed to be a final threat to throttle the service - after several such warnings - and so in order to keep Twitter available over the election weekend, took action on four accounts and 409 Tweets identified by court order.
We communicated our concerns about freedom of expression directly.
We will continue to object in court, as we have done with all requests, but no further legal action was possible before the start of voting.
No, although the Tweet states "We received what we believed to be a final threat to throttle the service", it doesn't show any such threat. There is no explicit reference to a final threat to throttle service in the communications provided by Twitter:

Don't you have something against make believe?
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 3
#28325290 - 05/18/23 06:37 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: As shivas.wisdom just pointed out, countries can throttle content they don't want.
Please don't put words in my mouth. You have a habit of misrepresenting to suit your purpose, so either quote me directly or refrain from using my name in support of your claims.
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#28325325 - 05/18/23 07:06 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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I remember him stitching together two separate posts to claim I said something l didn’t.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28325334 - 05/18/23 07:11 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Kizzle said: But we know Twitter isn't concerned with economic consequence because Honest Elon said so himself. It's all about the free speech. He would never interfere in an election for profit right?

He's complying with the laws of the countries in which Twitter operates. If he doesn't, Twitter will be shut down completely in those countries.
Only if the dictators keep winning which is what Elon intends to make sure keeps happening. How many tweets has Elon put out criticizing being coerced to do this? He's got a giant corporate megaphone that millions can hear, and he's just like, "Gotta do it "
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Enlil
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28325336 - 05/18/23 07:13 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Is child porn legal in the US if posted by a country outside the US? Why would a foreign country be subject to US law?
No. What makes you think a foreign country is subject to U.S. law?
As shivas.wisdom just pointed out, countries can throttle content they don't want. So either Twitter ban 4 accounts in Turkey, or Turkey shuts everything down. I think the former is the better option, and Twitter is fighting Turkey on this.
You think... there's a compelling argument.
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Enlil]
#28325363 - 05/18/23 07:31 PM (1 year, 23 hours ago) |
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He’s a real free speech advocate, that Falcon
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Kryptos
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28325402 - 05/18/23 08:04 PM (1 year, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Kryptos said: Oh I see so if there is a law banning certain types of speech, then the government should be able to tell Twitter to get rid of that speech and Twitter better fuckin comply before they just get shut down.
Now you're getting it!
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Kryptos said: So this whole thread didn't need to exist. If the government tells Twitter something, well, it's on Twitter to comply.
Incorrect. Government never should have told Twitter to censor the Hunter Biden laptop story.
But they could, and because they are the government, see above, twitter must comply without question. After all, twitter must follow the US laws.
And unless you happen to be the entire US government, I don't think you get to question any of this.
After all:
Quote:
Kryptos said: Oh I see so if there is a law banning certain types of speech, then the government should be able to tell Twitter to get rid of that speech and Twitter better fuckin comply before they just get shut down.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Kryptos]
#28325470 - 05/18/23 08:42 PM (1 year, 22 hours ago) |
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"So either Twitter ban 4 accounts in Turkey, or Turkey shuts everything down. I think the former is the better option, and Twitter is fighting Turkey on this."
___ ___ ___Okay but where does it end? I'm sure we can all agree that censoring a few tweets/accounts would be better than censoring the entirety of Twitter, but how much can be conceded until Twitter ceases to function as anything more than a mouthpiece for state propaganda? One hundred accounts? One thousand? One million? I can conceive of a point where shutting everything down would be the better option, but I can't assign a specific value to it - can anyone? Slippery slope arguments are often warrantlessly evoked in defence of the right to free expression, but the above is actually a good example of an occasion where the argument has merit. How could one ensure that death by a thousand cuts wouldn't be the result of such an approach? This is why, imo, many common proverbs against oppression focus on preserving humans rights for all of us by defending them in the least of us. I can't know what number of censored accounts will be that fatal number, so I'm best off treating every instance as if it was the final straw.
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