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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: christopera] 1
#28033903 - 11/05/22 07:13 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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christopera said: Providing a story from Ray McGovern and then listing his past jobs is an appeal to authority.
Crowdstrike is actually an authority, they do this work all over the world, as professionals. Ray never spent a day of his life in cyber security, he was just an CIA officer. I.E. not an authority on anything related this discussion. Crowdstrike however is absolutely an authority and they released a lot of information with the conclusion that Russia hacked the DNC server. They investigated, they wrote reports, and the reports were confirmed by government agencies. There is just nothing anybody can do about those facts.
Did you miss my posts, defining "Appeal to authority" fallacious arguments, or did you not comprehend them?
Crowdstrike may be an authority, and it is good to cite authorities, but it is not sufficient to cite their conclusions, without showing how they arrived at those conclusions. When you say, "This is what these people think, and they are the authority, so they are correct", without presenting their line of reasoning, you are appealing to their authority, not their argument.
So, simply put, I don't know whether Cloudstrike is right or wrong. They seem to be an authority, and therefore it is likely that they are correct. How did they come to their conclusion, though. What is their evidence?
Here's another definition, from a different source:
Quote:
When writers or speakers use appeal to authority, they are claiming that something must be true because it is believed by someone who said to be an "authority" on the subject. Whether the person is actually an authority or not, the logic is unsound. Instead of presenting actual evidence, the argument just relies on the credibility of the "authority."
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (11/05/22 07:18 AM)
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christopera
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28033905 - 11/05/22 07:17 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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I believe they released their findings if you want to look them up. I personally don't see the need to personally review their findings when they have been verified many times by various groups and agencies.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Ice9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: koods]
#28033928 - 11/05/22 07:42 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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koods said:
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Bigbadwooof said:
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Enlil said: Citing to a legitimate authority is not a logical fallacy, though.
Yes it is, if you're using their authority to make your argument, and not their claim. I'm not going to argue with idiot anymore, because it's no use, but I will argue with you...
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Appeal to authority is understood as a form of argumentation where the soundness of a statement is proven by reference to an external authority, such as an expert or a ruling of a higher court.
Appeal to authority simply means that one quotes known and respected scholars who hold that view. This in itself is not a proof. It is not sufficient for the argument to be considered conclusive. An acceptable argument by the scholars must be given in order for the view to be considered acceptable.
I disagree and enlil went to law school, I think he knows what valid arguments are
This definition is the same as the one I posted, without the all important part that the authority invoked must be a proper authority. Don't get caught up arguing this, bigbadwooof already admitted he was wrong, and falcon per his typical MO is arguing in bad faith.
Appeal to authority has nothing to do with invoking ACTUAL AUTHORITIES it is only a fallacy when invoking FAKE AUTHORITIES.
I shouldn't have to type all that out, but falcon is being obtuse, same as with all the "where did I lie".
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
Edited by Ice9 (11/05/22 08:26 AM)
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Ice9] 1
#28033933 - 11/05/22 07:50 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Ice9 said: This definition is the same as the one I posted, without the all important part that the authority invoked must be a proper authority. Don't get caught up arguing this, bigbadwooof already admitted he was wrong, and falcon per his typical MO is arguing in bad faith.
Appeal to authority has nothing to do with invoking ACTUAL AUTHORITIES it is only a fallacy when invoking FAKE AUTHORITIES.
I shouldn't have to type all that out, but falcon is being obtuse, same as with all the "where did I lie".
You're wrong. You're just not worth my time.
“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: christopera]
#28033949 - 11/05/22 08:00 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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christopera said: I believe they released their findings if you want to look them up. I personally don't see the need to personally review their findings when they have been verified many times by various groups and agencies.
There is only a need to review their findings if you want to cite them as evidence of some position, and care about maintaining the logical integrity in your worldview. Appeals to authority are particularly dangerous in journalism, I think. You expect a news anchor to tell you how they came to their conclusions, not just tell you what those conclusions are, don't you?
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Ice9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Ice9]
#28033969 - 11/05/22 08:14 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said:
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Ice9 said: This definition is the same as the one I posted, without the all important part that the authority invoked must be a proper authority. Don't get caught up arguing this, bigbadwooof already admitted he was wrong, and falcon per his typical MO is arguing in bad faith.
Appeal to authority has nothing to do with invoking ACTUAL AUTHORITIES it is only a fallacy when invoking FAKE AUTHORITIES.
I shouldn't have to type all that out, but falcon is being obtuse, same as with all the "where did I lie".
You're wrong. You're just not worth my time.
“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
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Ice9 said:
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Bigbadwooof said:
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Ice9 said: LOL dude, you are so fucking dumb. Appeal to authority fallacy has nothing to do with invoking ACTUAL AUTHORITIES 
... No
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Definition Appeal to Authority (argumentum ad verecundiam) logical fallacy and Argument from Authority (argumentum ab auctoritate) are the same form of of discussion argument in which person producing a claim referencing the opinion of an authority as evidence to support an argument. As a fallacy it’s included onto Red Herring Fallacies group.
.
From the website you quoted Appeal to Authority (argumentum ad verecundiam) logical fallacy and Argument from Authority (argumentum ab auctoritate) are the same form of of discussion argument in which person producing a claim referencing the opinion of an authority as evidence to support an argument. As a fallacy it’s included onto Red Herring Fallacies group.
This can be a fallacy if the referenced person does not have proper authority.
Emphasis mine.
Seems I'm not wrong. Nice try tho
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Ice9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28033981 - 11/05/22 08:23 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said:
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christopera said: I believe they released their findings if you want to look them up. I personally don't see the need to personally review their findings when they have been verified many times by various groups and agencies.
There is only a need to review their findings if you want to cite them as evidence of some position, and care about maintaining the logical integrity in your worldview. Appeals to authority are particularly dangerous in journalism, I think. You expect a news anchor to tell you how they came to their conclusions, not just tell you what those conclusions are, don't you?
Journalists should cite sources to be reviewed. They really don't need to explain their thought process if the article was well written, as it should accomplish that very thing. If it's well written conclusions will follow naturally from the evidence, and the author will have convinced the reader that the conclusion is correct. If a reader remains unconvinced, supporting evidence should be available to be examined.
Of course, this is political discussion in drug forum. This level of completeness is not feasible. It gets brought up a lot though
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Ice9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Ice9]
#28033987 - 11/05/22 08:26 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Slightly related topic, anyone see the latest DHS nonsense. I think it will make people who support DHS working with social media companies to reevaluate their positions. pretty damning for DHS as an entity with all these scandals they get embroiled in.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! *DELETED* [Re: Ice9]
#28034664 - 11/05/22 03:30 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Enlil
Reason for deletion: not appropriate
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Bigbadwooof] 1
#28034693 - 11/05/22 03:49 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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So... I looked into this some more. There's a declassified interview with the president of cloudstrike, in which he says that there is evidence that the DNC server was set up to be exfiltrated, but no evidence that it ever actually was, or that anything was taken from their server.
He says there is circumstantial evidence that they may have been exfiltrated, but no conclusive evidence that they actually were.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Ice9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28034714 - 11/05/22 04:01 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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I'd report those posts, but unlike the DHS, I don't try to censor opposing views
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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koods
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28034786 - 11/05/22 04:34 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: So... I looked into this some more. There's a declassified interview with the president of cloudstrike, in which he says that there is evidence that the DNC server was set up to be exfiltrated, but no evidence that it ever actually was, or that anything was taken from their server.
He says there is circumstantial evidence that they may have been exfiltrated, but no conclusive evidence that they actually were.
Well crowdstrike wasn’t responsible for the criminal investigation into the hacks. The fbi was, and based on their findings the justice department indicted members of a Russian military hacking unit. The details of the investigation are included in the mueller report:
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: christopera] 1
#28034924 - 11/05/22 05:39 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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christopera said: I believe they released their findings if you want to look them up. I personally don't see the need to personally review their findings when they have been verified many times by various groups and agencies.
Yes they did. They said this is the kind of thing they think the Russians might do, and that's their proof it was Russia. Same logic given the Us intelligence agencies.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Ice9]
#28034934 - 11/05/22 05:43 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Ice9 said: This definition is the same as the one I posted, without the all important part that the authority invoked must be a proper authority. Don't get caught up arguing this, bigbadwooof already admitted he was wrong, and falcon per his typical MO is arguing in bad faith.
So you think if a "proper" authority makes a statement, they can just make believe and not back it up? I'm with wooof and respectfully disagree.
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Ice9 said: falcon is being obtuse, same as with all the "where did I lie".
And you still failed to answer that question.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: koods]
#28034946 - 11/05/22 05:51 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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koods said: Elon made a claim that advertisers were being influenced by activists, and a guy who was on the phone call between advertisers and Elon replied to that tweet, saying it was not true and the reason advertisers were pulling out was because they are unsure about advertising in a platform that may contain content that is not aligned with sponsors values. In particular, they were concerned about the behavior of musk himself. He said these were all things they told musk a day earlier on their call.
They're concerned Elon won't blindly support Ukraine, and will allow free speech for a change.
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koods said: Elon cut him off. Removed his ability to reply to musk. It’s fucking petty and childish and ridiculous behavior for someone who claims to be a free speech absolutist.
Here is Elon's reply:

-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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mushboy
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28034952 - 11/05/22 05:55 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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What a loser.
Worlds richest person ever and he’s trolling a message board to be top shit.
The inner noob is eternal.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#28034958 - 11/05/22 05:57 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Ice9 said: This definition is the same as the one I posted, without the all important part that the authority invoked must be a proper authority. Don't get caught up arguing this, bigbadwooof already admitted he was wrong, and falcon per his typical MO is arguing in bad faith.
So you think if a "proper" authority makes a statement, they can just make believe and not back it up? I'm with wooof and respectfully disagree.
I posted 3 definitions from 3 sources, all saying the same thing. He isn't capable of understanding them, and he's a fucking dick about it. Sometimes, it's not worth it to be "respectful", Falcon. Rarely, but sometimes.
Quote:
Quote:
Ice9 said: falcon is being obtuse, same as with all the "where did I lie".
And you still failed to answer that question.
I don't think you'll ever get an answer to that question.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: mushboy]
#28034963 - 11/05/22 05:58 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: What a loser.
Worlds richest person ever and he’s trolling a message board to be top shit.
The inner noob is eternal.
I think it's funny. Trolling message boards... The great equalizer. That, and pizza.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (11/05/22 05:59 PM)
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Ice9
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28035000 - 11/05/22 06:12 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
mushboy said: What a loser.
Worlds richest person ever and he’s trolling a message board to be top shit.
The inner noob is eternal.
I think it's funny. Trolling message boards... The great equalizer. That, and pizza.
Weird stance for you to take
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Turns out DHS IS working with private companies to censor speech! [Re: Ice9]
#28035016 - 11/05/22 06:19 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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It's not a stance.
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