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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: sudly]
    #28165161 - 01/30/23 10:21 PM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Since spending money is an unfair weight....what is an acceptable one? How would I know if you were not trying to limit money for a political stance you favor? In this case, decreased speech.

So are you saying that Citizens United is not bribery in itself, just a doorkeeper now? Before you stated it was directly, now it's more indirect. Am I understanding your new position?


Quote:

sudly said:

Bribery is legalised by citizens United, and this isn't a questionable statement, it's just fact.




--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28165166 - 01/30/23 10:25 PM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Why do you want corporations to have limitless donations?

I want a limit of $2000 for citizens, corporations, lobbyists, billionaires etc.

I want an even playing field!

Money is not freedom of speech!!!

I've said the entire time that Citizens United allows for limitless donations hence bribery and in the end corruption.

Bribery is legalised by Citizens United.

I want to close the door to bribery by overturning Citizens United and removing limitless donations of any sort.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: sudly]
    #28165189 - 01/30/23 10:40 PM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Dude, when the government controls the money you spend to communicate, the government will control the quantity, quality, and topics of speech that can be heard in the public arena.


“of course" the government would state, “you’re free to read whatever website you want. You just can’t spend money on website development, advertise on Google, and purchase computers.”

.......this would raise serious issues under the First Amendment right to  freedom of speech/press.

Thats your argument.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/30/23 10:45 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28165203 - 01/30/23 10:55 PM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Money is not free speech and no one is suggesting anything about spending outside of regard to political campaigns.

If money is free speech you can buy votes by being rich because you can buy your name recognition. High recognition alone is powerful at swaying votes.

Quote:

The mass media devote a great deal of attention to high-profile elections, but in American political life such elections are the exception, not the rule. The majority of electoral contests feature candidates who are relative unknowns. In such situations, does name recognition breed contempt, indifference, or affection?

Existing work presents modest theory and mixed evidence. Using three laboratory experiments, we provide conclusive evidence that name recognition can affect candidate support, and we offer strong evidence that a key mechanism underlying this relationship is inferences about candidate viability.

We further show that the name-recognition effect dissipates in the face of a more germane cue, incumbency. We conclude with a field study that demonstrates the robustness of the name-recognition effect to a real-world political context, that of yard signs and a county election.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23496668




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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: sudly]
    #28165234 - 01/30/23 11:25 PM (11 months, 20 days ago)

"Money is speech" is the same way as "money is time" or "Money talks".

BUT


When government limits expenditures of cash in order to limit an activity(like contributions to a PAC), it is limiting the targeted activity. In this case, an organizations right to freedom speech on a particular issue.


You want less speech

I want more.



https://www.ifs.org/blog/is-money-speech/


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/30/23 11:38 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28165247 - 01/30/23 11:40 PM (11 months, 20 days ago)

No one person, single company or entity should be able to spend a million dollars on a political ad campaign.

The preferred activity or what should be the targeted activity, is the grass roots organisation and voting in a show of democracy.

Citizens United is anti democratic.

Cut out the middle man, no more limitless donations.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: sudly]
    #28165377 - 01/31/23 04:49 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Like I said, you want less speech via class warfare, I want more speech. Because you know, if you have lots of money, and want to spend it, that makes you an instantly evil person and your political contributions should be limited.

Quote:

sudly said:


I want a limit of $2000 for citizens, corporations, lobbyists, billionaires etc.





wait, I thought money wasnt speech?


I will give you a hint...our system was designed anti democractic in many ways.
Read all of your arguments.....
In any event, my position and opinion remains the same.


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/31/23 05:25 AM)


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28165407 - 01/31/23 05:46 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

I think what sudly is getting at is that it's unfair that the wealthy and corporations get to amplify their speech via commercials and regular Joes can't afford to do that. Which is true. It's also true that politicians sometimes favor the wealthy and corporations in ways that are unpopular which makes you what is motivating them to do so.

But it's also unfair to say someone is guilty of bribery because someone else paid for ads about them. That's just factually wrong.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: Kizzle]
    #28165410 - 01/31/23 05:52 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Many things in life are unfair.
When you try and limit speech to reach fairness, you are in dangerous territory and in point of fact, are being more unfair.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/31/23 05:53 AM)


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28165414 - 01/31/23 05:56 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

I kind of question the idea that corporations should have a right to speech. I mean they're not people. They're heartless entities designed to make money.  Certainly the employees should have a right to speech.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: Kizzle]
    #28165416 - 01/31/23 06:01 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Then corporations shouldn't be able to advertise.....after all they are not singular human beings.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #28165424 - 01/31/23 06:09 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

I didn't say they shouldn't be able to. But should they have an inalienable right to do so? Even advertisements have regulations that normal speech does not.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: Kizzle]
    #28165433 - 01/31/23 06:14 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

They do have the right, the SC definitely thinks so. PACs are also regulated within this.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/31/23 06:15 AM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28165517 - 01/31/23 07:26 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

The government already regulates broadcast speech. Networks can be fined for using using the wrong words and a license from the FCC is required


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28165542 - 01/31/23 07:40 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Without a doubt, there are limits.
Sure if a PAC was formed for the mere purpose of inciting a riot; that is not protected. What I don't understand is why people don't want freedom of association..... somehow corporations and unions are not legitimate participants in public debate, only private citizens based on a lesser economic standing.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28165788 - 01/31/23 10:27 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

It just feels like at times corporate speech is the only speech being heard to the exclusion of everyone else. Whatever happened to closing that tax loophole for hedge funds that Republican were supposedly going to fix when they got in office? They made a big deal about it but somehow this tiny group of people that benefit from it had too much influence for it happen.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: Kizzle]
    #28165844 - 01/31/23 11:17 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Disenchantment?
I will not argue in the least. We have a very imperfect system. We have a system that was designed to be improved on/ with the changing of the times. I dont think I will honestly ever see a Constitutionial amendment added without sometype of major, crazy event. That's disfunction to me. Not that is the only solution, but I believe its part of it.

The bottom line is that it's mostly up to the citizens to choose their government. If everyone gets butthurt enough over super Pacs and dark money that benefit candidates....dont vote for them.  Plenty of disclosures to determine who (as in the PAC)and from where. I really don't think it's a talking point, yet, that rally anyone.....other than throwing out an occasional bone to those that do.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/31/23 11:19 AM)


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28165928 - 01/31/23 12:29 PM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

The bottom line is that it's mostly up to the citizens to choose their government. If everyone gets butthurt enough over super Pacs and dark money that benefit candidates....dont vote for them.



It's not a matter of getting butthurt. It's matter of wanting to eliminate conflicts of interest. Unfortunately we have a election system that compels people to vote for candidates they don't even like so voting away Super PACs isn't a realistic possibility. It's like Ghostbusters where all we get to do is choose the form the of the destructor. I often vote for 3rd parties but it feels like not voting at all.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28165954 - 01/31/23 12:48 PM (11 months, 20 days ago)

You can talk without money and the only limits are threats of violence. That's what free speech is.

I don't want class warfare, because I don't want billionaires to be abkento buy elections.

Money isn't free speech.

You can spend your money on whatever you want, but I don't think you should be able to limitlessly spend it towards a political campaign.

No one should be able to limitlessly donate.

I am talking about removing limitless donations.

Citizens United is anti democratic in how it allows those with money to have a greater influence on the votes.

When someone like Kirsten Sinema changes their stance directly after recieving contributions from a pharmaceutical lobbying group, that is quid pro quo, that is bribery, that is corruption.

A billionaire giving a PAC a million dollars is not speech, it is a bribe to who the PAC is running for.

Corporations are legally recognised as people by Citizens United, and free speech is talking, not giving someone money. The only limits on free speech are threats of violence and defamation.

Employees have a right to speak and be heard through unions.

Buying a campaign involves more than ads.

Anyone can keep donating, I just think limitless donations should be properly regulated and removed.

The problem with PACS is the limitless donations they are allowed.

It is up to citizens to choose their government, it certainly should be but gerrymandering, and the disproportianate spread of the US electorate hinder that.

A lot of voters rely on name recognition because the policies are too complicated and they've been told someone is a nice guy or gal.

You are hook line and sinkered into the role of being an apologist to bribery and corruption.

I think it's important to eliminate conflicts of interest, and regulate away limitless donations by overturning Citizens United.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Pelosi's husband almost got killed [Re: sudly]
    #28165965 - 01/31/23 12:59 PM (11 months, 20 days ago)

If free speech has nothing to do with money, why do you advocate for limits on monetary contributions? After all free speech is not money, so it shouldn't matter how much one spends.

Yet you decry the message that resounds from "billionaires" via PACs. You dont see this huge contradiction?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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