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Offlineshroomerio
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Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything * 1
    #28018296 - 10/26/22 07:52 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry in advance for the long post... here it goes.

I will go on a detailed explanation of my procedure in order to get some opinions regarding my problem

-GRAIN TEK:

I boil my grains in a very specific maner, I have tried different times and methods but after sterilizing I always found popped up grains or dry grains and this method gets me 100% perfect grains every time. It's a bit of a silly process but hey, works for me.

First I do pretty much the same procedure as the "bucket tek" but with my grains. I pour 3 liters of water in my instant pot and I partially put the lid on (not sealed) and heat the water with the "steam" setting (Any longer will result in mushy grains, believe me). Then I dump about 10 cups of dry grain inside a grain brewing bag and into a bucket and proceed to pour the 3 liters of -almost- boiling water. I quickly put on the bucket lid and leave it overnight.

I do this pre soak with hot water for 3 reasons:

1 so the grains can absorb some water overnight

2 so any spores can germinate and die more easily during sterilization

3 the hot water kills the grains, preventing them from sprouting during the pre soak

After 24 hours I drain the water in the bucket and proceed to do exactly the same, 3 liters of water heated inside the Instapot for 10 minutes and "bucket tek" it, but this time I'll only leave the hot water from the instant pot for 10 minutes in the bucket and drain again.

After the 10 minutes have passed I lift the brewing bag, dump the water and hang the bag for 15-20 minutes to get rid of any excess water before loading my jars or bags.

-STERILIZATION:

After that I load my jars half full to make g2g easier. I've recently picked up some 10T Unicorn Bags and I'll also fill them up until they have about 3 pounds of hydrated grains.

Then I'll load my jars and bags into my 23qt pressure cooker and start the sterilization process. I wait until the valve lifts up and leave the air flowing out for about 10 minutes before putting the pressure regulator on the steam vent. After reaching 15 PSI I sterilize for two hours and leave the PC cooling overnight.

-inoculation

To inoculate I use agar for my first runs and then normally I do g2g in front of my flowhood, now it's worth mentioning that I've had 100% sucess rate with my agar plates and with all of my jars and bags, they never seem to contaminate even when I leave them out for too long after colonizing. I always wear gloves and mask during this procedure. Then I'll let my grains colonize for about 10 days, shaking a couple of times before they are 100% ready.

-BULK SUB

Now... for my bulk sub I use a 2:1 mix of coir and verm, my coir is the type used for reptiles so its supposed to be free of any trich that usually comes with the coir that is made for plants. I used to add about 2% of gypsum but I've found it to make no real difference in my grows. (I've been thinking of maybe using only coir?)

I hydrate this mixture to field capacity inside of a trash bag, squeezing until only a tiny stream of water comes out, never with excess moisture and then proceed to load it into my "pasteurization chamber" (the same one from the Willy Myco tutorial.) Its pretty much only a heavy duty box with a tube that takes steam from my PC into the box.

-PASTEURIZATION

The thermometer measures the bags at the core (without puncturing it obviously) and I heat it up to about 145-155º with steam from my PC and mantain that temperature stable for two hours.

After that I also let it cool down overnight (inside of the chamber, maybe I should take out the bag first and let it cool down at room temp?) It takes a while to cool down.

-SPAWNING

The next day I make my bulk/spawn mix inside my shoeboxes or monotubs, whichever I'm working with at the moment (I've had success and failure in both). I make sure to turn off every fan and my A/C unit in order to do this and spray some Lysol over the area. I always wear gloves and mask during this procedure as well and wipe my hands with 70% ISO.

I mix my sub and spawn in a 2:1 ratio (I've also tried 3:1) and cover with a thin layer of sub in the surface to prevent any exposed grains. I make sure that the walls of my sub are never dirty. I spray some 10% H2O2 (90% water) during the process out of habit, I've never found it to affect the mycelium and maybe it doesn't make that much difference but it sure makes me feel a bit on the safe side. I fine mist the walls and lid of my shoeboxes/monotubs with this mixture and then let it colonize until about 90%, approximately 10 days until I see fine droplets of water developing on the surface.

-FRUITING

After this happens I crack the lids open (I don't flip them) and put my boxes in some racks with a fan that creates indirect airflow. I don't mist and fan unless it's really necessary.

When I have sucess my fruits usually look great, no fuzzy feet, no weird stems, perfect color, never dried up caps, all good and I'll do about 3-4 flushes after rehidrating with no issues. The problem is that I have a success rate of about 30%... the rest gets contaminated with trich, usually after "fruiting conditions" are introduced.

-GROW ROOM

My room is about 30-40 square feet and it is constantly at 73ºF with a minisplit, no intake ventilation though and windows are always closed (maybe there's an issue here with FAE?) I'm really paranoid about the air outside being loaded with spores. Tubs get 12 hours of cool light and fans are on all the time creating a nice current of air across the room. There's an air purifier constantly running (not the ones with UV, only HEPA) and my flowhood is there too, sometimes I also turn it on in an effort to further clean my air.

I always wipe down every tool I use with 70% ISO (scissors, scalpels etc) and I seal my bags with an impulse sealer, I also have a butane torch for my scalpel when I'm doing agar work etc.

I've "bombed" the room a couple times with a 10% bleach mix (One time I got myself sick from doing that shit) and I'll still have issues. I'm starting to believe that my grow space is fucking cursed by the green or something, It's really frustrating, I've invested a bunch of money and time (a couple of years now) into this hobby and although I've had amazing sucess I've had way more failure. There are absolutely no carpets or fabrics in the room, I shower before every procedure and have special lab clothes.

My possible solutions now are:

1 Getting a filtered intake on the room in order to bring fresh air into the grow space (expensive) Maybe an AC Infinity setup with a 10" intake fan, with a carbon filter outside and a filter box with a MERV filter, or Hepa maybe.

2 Ditching verm and using only coir in my sub mix

3 Let my bulk sub cool down at room temp outside the chamber

4 move out and get a new place to grow

Sorry about the extra long post. Any help is greatly appreciated.

P.S I've also tried to use the PH adjusted casing layer to further protect my grows, and although I've also had sucess with it, the fucking trich has also contaminated the casing layer on a lot of my tubs, and I usually get better yields without it so there's that.

Proof of sucess (lol):






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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: shroomerio] * 5
    #28018311 - 10/26/22 08:05 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

would like to see pics of your spawn, because 2 hours is not enough for 3lb bags


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Invisiblebigfootscreepyuncl
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: bakedbeings] * 2
    #28018322 - 10/26/22 08:14 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

:whathesaid:

It is almost always either 1) Your culture isn't as clean as you think it is, 2) Your sterile procedure has holes in it and needs improvement, or 3) Incomplete/improper sterilization of your grain.

Got any pics of your spawn/agar?


After your grains are fully colonized sterility goes out the window. I spawn my tubs on my living room floor (carpeted) half the time, drinking beer, breathing over my tubs, sometimes I'll drop a bead of sweat into it and my dog will come by and sniff around. What I'm getting at is there's no reason to think about carbon filtering your AC or move out...? Save your iso for when you're doing sterile work and stop using h202


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OfflineLand TroutM
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: bigfootscreepyuncl]
    #28018347 - 10/26/22 08:33 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I do 4 hours with a modded rocker to get some more pressure for bags.  Jars 2 hours at 15, so I would start with that.

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: Land Trout]
    #28018361 - 10/26/22 08:50 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

also its a rare issue but since im currently struggling with it, doesnt hurt to rule out bad coir. prep it, leave it in a tub alone, if it turns green now you know


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Offlineshroomerio
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: bakedbeings]
    #28018420 - 10/26/22 09:32 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I don't have any spawn pics, I'll take some tomorrow, how long would you recomend for grain sterilization?

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OfflineTheUsualSuspect
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: shroomerio]
    #28018577 - 10/27/22 12:41 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I had been doing a no soak no simmer oat prep and was in a discussion where 2 people were suggesting I should try a soak prep. I tried it and got bags contaminating when I had not before. I tried discussing this but the people recommending the method stopped posting in the string so I couldnt compare my process specs with theirs.

In any event I dont recommend soaking and if you let it go to the point it started fermenting (in my case about 24 hours) I think you are begging for issues. This is just my opinion.

I am at a point where im not sure if I will go back to the no soak oat prep or do a 30 min boil and dry but I wont soak again. Probably boil.

Also, when I did the no soak I was doing 2 quart bags which I had no contamination issues with. When I switched to 2 quart bags and soaking I got contams and someone recommended I switch from 120 min at 15psi to 180 min at 15psi (after venting and temp norming). I dont want to try soaking again but ill PC for 3 hours as a standard going forward. Big bags take longer to heat internally than 1 quart jars.

Also, you might try the basic bucket tek where u put your coir and verm into a 5 gallon bucket, boil the water, pour the water on the coir and leave the bucket closed till it cools down. This will take hours so I usually do it at night and use it the next day. I like willy mycos enthusiasm and accent but I think bucket tek > willy 'pasteurizing'.

On coir, seems to me a really big difference in texture and quality. I like coco bliss 650 gram bricks but other people that buy the larger canna coir blocks seem to really like that. The eco brand with the pic of the lizard sucked (in my opinion).

The bleaching business seems unhealthy. I wouldnt do that.

The longer I do this hobby the more I come to think if you have contamination issues the first place u look is in grain prep. Switch to a 3 hour pressure cook cycle and see if it still contams.

Also, 1:2 spawn to sub is a lot of grain. I would drop that to 1:3 or 1:4. At 1:2 the grow will run short on water before nutrients. Also the higher grain content increases contam chance.

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Offlineschpat
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: TheUsualSuspect]
    #28018615 - 10/27/22 02:26 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

How are you heating the water for your water for hydrating your coir?


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OfflineTheUsualSuspect
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: schpat]
    #28018728 - 10/27/22 05:59 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I use a 220 volt 8 gallon digiboil electric kettle which gets about 7 gallons to just under boiling in about 40 min. You could just put a pot on any stove top and it would boil.

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Offlineschpat
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: TheUsualSuspect]
    #28018732 - 10/27/22 06:05 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks, that sounds much better than my home kettle, but I was wondering about the OP's process.


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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: schpat]
    #28018733 - 10/27/22 06:06 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

i had been doing a no soak no simmer oat prep and was in a discussion where 2 people were suggesting I should try a soak prep. I tried it and got bags contaminating when I had not before. I tried discussing this but the people recommending the method stopped posting in the string so I couldnt compare my process specs with theirs.



what grain did you soak?


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Offlinerumfor69
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: TheUsualSuspect] * 1
    #28018750 - 10/27/22 06:24 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Trich dies at a very low temp. It's as easy to kill as the spores and mycelium you're trying to grow.

@shroomerio are you seeing green in your bags or jars? Does trich hit your tubs before or during first flush?

Also that technique you're using for coir is ok I guess but you can just bucket tek the coir and verm and wrap in a couple thick blankets. I wrap buckets in cotton flannel Coleman sleeping bags and they're still 160°f 4hrs later when unwrapped. Break your coir bricks into little pieces prior and blast them with boiling water, wrap the buckets also dont use ANYTHING for your coir that you've used for grain as it can add nutrients to the coir and causes contamination.

If you're only seeing trich in the tubs before or during first flush my bet is you have a bacterial problem that's weakening the mycelium health and allowing trich to take hold. Are your grain seeds hydrated to their centers? The white in their centers is gone? Grain bags need 3.5hrs in the PC I suspect you're not killing the bacterial endospores in those too.

Definitely need pics of your plates, jars, and bags to confirm anything but I bet your problem is bacterial, not trich it's just a consequence.


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Offlineshroomerio
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: schpat]
    #28018923 - 10/27/22 08:49 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I don't heat up the water to hydrate my coir, I hydrate it with tap water at room temp inside a plastic trash bag and then proceed to load the bag into my "pasteurization bin" where I steam pasteurize it.

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Offlineshroomerio
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: rumfor69]
    #28018925 - 10/27/22 08:54 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I had seen green on my agar and my grain jars before getting a laminar flownhood and working in a SAB, but I haven't got any green since. My last batch of 10 shoeboxes got contam at the same time at about 70% colonization. But I usually get trich after the first flush. I had a bit of a hassle getting to the "sweet spot" with my grains so they wouldn't turn into a mushy paste inside my jars after PC, but I guess I'm doing something wrong, maybe PC for 3-4 hours instead of 2 can do the trick

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: shroomerio]
    #28019050 - 10/27/22 10:15 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shroomerio said:
But I usually get trich after the first flush



classic bacteria. definitely PC bags for longer


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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: shroomerio] * 1
    #28019053 - 10/27/22 10:17 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't do your coir like that. It's over complicated, unnecessary, and not efficient. Without accurate thermowell temp controllers and exact load quantities you have no idea if that's actually pasturizing correctly. You don't know the constant temperature in the bin, if the heat radiation is going into the substrate, or out the walls of the bin depending on which can conduct heat more efficiently. Trust me I built a bad ass cheap af automated electric steam boiler and bin. It works flawlessly, it's completely unnecessary I don't even use it. Break coir into smaller pieces, dump boiling water into the bucket, wrap it with a couple heavy blankets, 2hrs done. Or hey keep doing what ur doing cause...
:yields:

Contamination at that stage of tub colonization and after first flush is always caused by dirty spawn IF you do your coir correctly. If your grains are turning into mush in the jars then your grain is not surface dry enough when you put it in the jars. The surfaces of the grains have to be completely dry. I put grains that have many bursted seeds into jars and they're fine as long as their surfaces are dry.


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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: rumfor69] * 2
    #28019060 - 10/27/22 10:21 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

willy is such a mess he even found a way to overcomplicate coir prep


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Offlinerumfor69
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: bakedbeings] * 1
    #28019062 - 10/27/22 10:23 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Right like wtf lol

:tubgirl:
:patlal:


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OfflineLand TroutM
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: rumfor69]
    #28019201 - 10/27/22 11:24 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I also vent for 30 minutes with bags.  There’s a lot more gas to push out.  Gotta watch your water level.
30 minute vent, 4 hours at 15+.  You can really tell how hot it gets by how long it takes to cool.  I don’t think you can over do it and that extra time is a small price to pay when your bags come out good.  I stopped running bags in prestos after I warped one.  It definitely can be done, but I’d suggest doing a slow heat up and a slow cool down.  I think all things aside what we’re all getting at is so a longer pc cycle, and if that doesn’t fix it then work on your coir.

Edited by Land Trout (10/27/22 11:29 AM)

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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Help! I can't get rid of my Trich problem, I've tried everything [Re: shroomerio]
    #28019257 - 10/27/22 11:51 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

You got some nice shoeboxes there! Cant be that bad huh!

I think its your coir or your pasteurization process. Thats my guess.


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