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Offlinexxcjtxx
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Registered: 03/07/22
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Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests * 1
    #27718426 - 04/02/22 06:37 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Been growing for 11 months now and have everything down up until spawning to bulk where everything goes wrong.

I get clean spawn almost ever time (tested by doing G2G with no issues), but as soon as I spawn to bulk, my tubs stall out before fully colonizing, then I get weak, spotty flushes with pins all over the place (top/bottom/sides).

I'm using this tek.

Originally I figured my spawn was too wet and was contaminating, so I switched to this tek where they recommend a slightly drier sub with a focus on higher moisture in the casing layer.

I've got 8 tubs going right now (ranging from 7-14 days) and every single one of them has stalled, demonstrating the exact same issues that I've faced with all of my other grows, despite using different spawn for each, different moisture content, and different spawn:sub ratios. The first few days seem to show instant and rapid growth, then it stops completely.

I've tried everything from not touching tubs, misting twice a day, higher spawn:sub ratios (1:1,1:2, etc), CVG recipes, Coir only recipes, pasteurizing, non-pasteurized, liners, no liners, and everything in between, and I'm stuck.

-- I feel like I've eliminated the bad spawn possibility, as the spawn shows no signs of contamination and colonizes other jars when used for G2G.

-- I feel like I've eliminated the too dry possibility, as I've misted throughout, ensuring the casing was always beaded/glistening.

-- I feel like I've eliminated the too dry possibility by going below field capacity to the point where I've had tubs even pin exclusively from the bottom because I didn't want to overmist.

Every single tub has resulted in roughly the same timeline/outcome:

Days 1-5 - Rapid growth
Days 5-14 - Stalled growth and spotty pins develop, everywhere, as you can see in the first two images, which is the same tub with pins on top, the sides, and the bottom.
Days 14-21 - Weak harvest, usually requiring several harvests per flush due to inconsistent growth

Dunk and Repeat for 3-4 flushes.

As you can see in the pictures, despite the varying saturation levels (still running tests to try to isolate the issue), they all are stalling, and all of them were spawned using separate spawn.

I don't know where to turn now, seeing as I've tested pretty much everything that I've come across through countless searches. If anyone has any idea, please let me know, I've been at this for 11 months straight, have run 20+ tubs, and still can't seem to get this last part figured out.


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: xxcjtxx] * 2
    #27718430 - 04/02/22 06:39 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

You are way to wet and your myc looks weak.

i argue that it is your spawn. Got pics of jars.

Edit: the tubs where you got pins and shrooms dont look terrible but they are too wet. Drier with beads of moisture not soaked. If it's truly not your spawn than its 100% your conditions.

Edited by mushboy (04/02/22 06:47 PM)

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Offlinexxcjtxx
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: mushboy] * 1
    #27718439 - 04/02/22 06:49 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I do not have pictures of the jars used for this run, but here is one that I tossed due to the greyish growth. All of the others looked just like this, minus the greyish spots.



In regards the conditions, what do you suggest? I made all of these tubs on the drier side, with no moisture coming out on the squeeze test, then misted the casing layer heavily and it still resulted in the stall then 75% of the pins came out of the bottom, which I couldn't believe.

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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: xxcjtxx] * 2
    #27718442 - 04/02/22 06:51 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I can:lol: sounds all too typical.

you misted the top for no reason.

Now it's too wet.

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Offlinexxcjtxx
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: mushboy] * 1
    #27718462 - 04/02/22 07:06 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

It sounds like I don't understand how to maintain proper surface conditions despite reading the surface conditions thread multiple times.

I've tried not touching the tubs until harvest like so many people do, but that leads to tubs that exclusively pin from the bottom for me since the air flow comes in from the top and creates a dry surface.

I've tried misting throughout, once or twice a day when the surface appears dry, but it sounds like it's too much. Before mycelium has colonized the surface, it doesn't "bead", but rather just saturates the substrate. So am I not supposed to mist until it glistens? I'm using a fine mister, if that makes any difference.

In all cases, whether I've misted or not, the tubs have stalled. The first one that is pinning was not misted UNTIL it started pinning, as I saw bottom pins forming, and wanted to encourage them to head toward the top.

So all tubs are stalling, and when they do start their weak pinning, they usually pin from the bottom or sides.

So frustrating...

Are there any solutions I can implement now, or once they have stalled/start pinning there is nothing you can do to restart colonization? I've cracked the lids for now.

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OfflineBobbins
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: xxcjtxx] * 1
    #27718913 - 04/03/22 12:58 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Reduce your FAE to stop things drying out during colonisation. Then you won't need to mist.


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DeALeRsHrOoMs

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Offlinexxcjtxx
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: Bobbins] * 1
    #27719315 - 04/03/22 11:34 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I’m already using my unmodified tubs with the lids completely closed. I guess the only way I can reduce FAE more is to stack them, right?

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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: xxcjtxx] * 1
    #27719342 - 04/03/22 11:52 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I'd do the opposite.

You are too wet homie. Plain and simple. Reducing air is the last thing you want.

More evaporation not less. Look up p9s casing guide it's in the main thread page I'd linknit but I'm lazy

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OfflineKROM
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: mushboy] * 1
    #27719359 - 04/03/22 11:59 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
πŸ…ƒ πŸ„΄ πŸ„° πŸ„Ό    πŸ„² πŸ„» πŸ„Έ πŸ„½ πŸ„Ά πŸ…† πŸ… πŸ„° πŸ„Ώ

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Offlinexxcjtxx
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: KROM] * 1
    #27719905 - 04/03/22 06:42 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Appreciate the replies.

The plan for the next batch of tubs will be to test the following:

- Compacted substrate with compacted casing, per P9s tek.

- Stacking tubs to restrict FAE during colonization, which should help in maintaining original surface conditions and remove/reduce the need to mist.

- Reducing substrate recipe's water by 15%.



Hoping this next batch of tests will help me dial in my tek to eradicate these last two issues (stalling/bottom pins).

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Offlineharryskinflap
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: xxcjtxx] * 1
    #27760307 - 05/02/22 05:06 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

How'd it go man?

I'm curious to see if your situation has improved.

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Offlinexxcjtxx
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: harryskinflap]
    #27763241 - 05/04/22 05:55 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

I posted a detailed write-up here about some discoveries tied to the topic in this thread, which can be found here.

I just came back from being out of the country but started a group of spawn jars before leaving that will be ready to go here in the next few days. I will implement some of the solutions I've come up with and post the results in the other thread over the next month.

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OfflineThe Ace Of Cakes
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: xxcjtxx]
    #28017169 - 10/26/22 08:25 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I am in the same boat. I've been growing using the PF TEK for 10 years so I understand the basics of proper fruiting conditions and the basis of mycology, but I just tried using a monotub a few months ago and everything went well until my tub stalled after spawning 5 days in, just like yours. When I put the tub into fruiting conditions, it only produced very small fruits, and eventually contaminated.

I started a second monotub after the first and I used a MS syringe and millet grain, mixed the CVG accordingly and now this tub stalled at the same point.

I take notes while growing so I can look back and see where I maybe went wrong. I felt the first tub had a field capacity that was too wet, so with the second tub I squeezed each handful of substrate before layering it with the spawn. Now this tub stalled after about 6 days.

I also set aside a smaller tray as a control so I can see how it's going without disturbing the main monotub.

I am at a loss for what went wrong. The fact that the same thing happened to me at the same point with both tubs is confusing. I used different MS syringes for each spawn bag as well. I really don't know what I'm doing wrong.

If anyone can point me to some other threads or resources that might help I would appreciate it. Thanks.


--------------------


Turn off your mind, relax and float down stream,
It is not dying, it is not dying

Lay down all thought, surrender to the void,
It is shining, It is shining

Yet you may see the meaning of within
It is being, it is being

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Invisiblebridge2far


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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: The Ace Of Cakes]
    #28017176 - 10/26/22 08:35 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ace Of Cakes said:
I used different MS syringes for each spawn bag as well. I really don't know what I'm doing wrong.

If anyone can point me to some other threads or resources that might help I would appreciate it. Thanks.




MS to grain is risky. Inoculate grain with clean mycelium samples, not MS.

About MS to grain

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Offlinexxcjtxx
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: bridge2far]
    #28017719 - 10/26/22 02:51 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Just to clarify what bridge2far stated, going from MS to grain isn't an issue by itself, but going from MS syringes to grain is almost guaranteed to contaminate and cause issues.

When people state they are doing MS runs, they are referring to isolating a section of clean mycelium from an MS syringe on an agar plate, then transferring that clean MS mycelium to the grain, not just shooting dirty spores into grain.

After the last few months of testing, I've tinkered with all types of different spawn ratios, substrate recipes, and ran about 30 more tubs to try to get some more insight into why tubs stall and it seems to come down to a few main factors:

Bad Spawn
Improperly Prepared Substrate
Inhospitable Growing Environment
Poor Genetics

I'll break each of these down to the best of my current experience and knowledge:

Bad spawn - If your tub stalls, then eventually contaminates, it was likely your spawn that was not entirely clean and it halted the colonization and fruiting of your tubs. Spotting contamination on agar is very easy (which is why we use it), but once it's used to inoculate grains, it can be very difficult to see. I've had jars that look perfect on the outside, used them, then had the tubs stall and contaminate which would indicate that there were likely contaminants on the inside of the spawn jars that weren't visible.

Improperly Prepared Substrate - The tubs that I did above were very odd and still don't entirely make sense to me. What I think was the issue was that even though the surface had more water content, it lacked the humidity that the bottom of the tubs contained, which is why they pinned from the bottom. I likely had too much air flow in my grow area. In addition, the substrate was much too dry and trying to compensate for that with constant misting wasn't sufficient. I'd recommend testing different recipes/field capacities until you don't have to mist whatsoever. Reduce the amount of variables in the equation to increase your consistency.

Inhospitable Growing Environment - Most mushrooms thrive when conditions are stable, within a smaller temperature range. If your grow area is too hot, it'll contaminate; if it's too cold, it will stall. If the temperate fluctuates too much, it'll stress the mycelium and likely stall as well. I keep my tubs around 70 degrees and that seems to be a good medium to discourage contamination while allowing adequate colonization/fruiting speed.

In addition, I reduced FAE almost entirely. Cubes generally don't need much FAE; sure you'll get some fuzzy feet, but who cares. When I was actively trying to provide additional FAE (aside from what the tub allows naturally with the lid closed), it would dry out the tub, reduce the humidity, then cause all sorts of issues.

Poor genetics - This one is typically more of a crutch that is used as an easy justification when the others aren't properly examined/investigated. If you're using MS it's wildly improbable that there aren't fruiting genetics SOMEWHERE in your tub. This seems to be more of an issue when people look to isolate from MS prior to ever fruiting, then come to find out that their ISOLATE is a poor fruiter. If you're going from MS or using genetics from a fruit (clone), it's probably not a genetics issue in terms of stalling.



So here are the changes that I've made to date with some promising results and yields, although I'm still testing and striving to improve:

- Coir only substrate (trying to reduce variables)
- ~5:1 water to substrate ratio (will vary based on coir brand)
- Latched lid in unmodified tubs (no rubber seal)
- No misting unless it's absolutely necessary
- Leave tubs alone
- More spawn in my mix (1:~1.5 sub to spawn ratio)
- Deeper substrate (2+ inches)

I run most of my tests with 3 tubs all prepared identically to try to get a better understanding of what is happening. I see far too many people running 1 tub tests or 2 tub tests, and basic variance or unrelated factors will compromise the tub and they will attribute that to the test they were running. On the other hand, if you run 3 identical tubs to test for one factor and they all go bad, that's a more reliable test to draw conclusions on (albeit still a very small sample size).

For example, my last test was 6 tubs; 3 with a 3.5:1 water to substrate ratio and 3 tubs with a 5:1 water to substrate ratio. Collectively, all of the 5:1 tubs produced better than the 3.5:1. If I ran just two tubs and they produced similar results, I might conclude that the ratio doesn't matter or that the smaller ratio is fine, move onto new tests, then have the inaccurate testing results of the first test interfere with all subsequent tests.

I hope this helps. Try to remember to enjoy the process. I'm constantly reminding myself that this isn't a math problem in school, but rather a skill and hobby that should be enjoyable and fulfilling. We all want massive canopies of perfect fruits, but this is something that is just difficult enough for the lazy to quit and the persistent and patient to be rewarded endlessly.

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OfflineBobgas
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Registered: 09/01/22
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Re: Substrate Still Stalling After Numerous Tests [Re: xxcjtxx]
    #28017991 - 10/26/22 05:13 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I appreciate this post and can see where there are a couple of things that I ought to look at for subsequent grows.  Replacing variables with coefficients - or, at least reducing the swing of variables is what I am concentrating on.

One thing that is interesting is using an unmodified tub latched.  I currently am using 1’4” holes per the ezdial tek and using tape to manage airflow.


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πŸ…ƒπŸ„΄πŸ„°πŸ„Ό  πŸ„²πŸ„»πŸ„ΈπŸ„½ πŸ„ΆπŸ…†πŸ…πŸ„°πŸ„Ώ

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