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Offlinedumbesthuman
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Registered: 10/18/22
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about rehab and it hurting people.
    #28004896 - 10/18/22 03:19 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

many rehabs say no electronics, no coffee. some of them make the recovery process as painful as possible to be perfectly honest.

what this accomplishes is makes you never want to have to withdraw from drugs again, it was probably excruciating. weaning yourself off in a way that does not traumatize you should have a much higher success rate in almost any case.

this creates repeat business because what does almost everyone end up doing, pain killers, u will very likely get addicted and end up in rehab again the way they condition people

what im saying rehab should probably be exactly like life except u cant get the drug that is causing u issues. u want some coffee or need a xanax who cares will that really impact success rate? almost for sure not dead serious. and if u get addicted to the replacements, it would be a force taper and a drug allowance. not hard to work out rehab could be cheap and a lot more effective if we did not just use brainwashing.


--------------------
had to make new account, last one got banned for "puppeting" whatever that means,

inherently dangerous ideas are frowned upon. it's extremely important to spread regardless. check out my linked in or heres a link to my quora for more info, basically people pretend coding subtext and lack of data does not exist and will put u on forced meds for admitting otherwise. imo ram das be here now is filled with lies laced with code. I think we need to seriously analyze coding as a group if we want to become "enlightened" in any way. interesting example hot rocks with trumps face and dogecoin putin's. also cancer cure likely launches nukes. NOT BLAMING SHROOMERY AT ALL IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT.

https://www.quora.com/profile/Eli-Rossman-4


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OfflineSnowDaze
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: dumbesthuman] * 2
    #28007719 - 10/20/22 10:50 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Ok so before I respond I just wanna say that the addiction treatment model IS broken but not for the reasons you are stating here.

They don't take your electronics/phone away from you to make you miserable and I have never been to a place that doesn't allow you to drink at least some coffee everyday. They might limit your caffeine intake or cut you off at a certain time of day but that is usually just do you will be able to sleep at night without problems. The reason they take your electronics/phone is so you can FOCUS ON YOUR RECOVERY and start to look inward rather than just distract yourself. When most people are able to keep their phone they are stuck thinking about outside things that they cant even probably deal with at the time which can lead them back out to using. Also it gives people connection to the outside which can make people seek drugs out when they in withdrawal which can make people leave the program.

I have been to places that don't take your phone/computer away from you and the rate of success (which is already low) is even lower at a place like that and they usually cost a lot more.

Your argument about how people should be able to take a xanax or another drug while they are in treatment for addiction is absolutely crazy. Most people cant stay clean unless they fully give themselves to sobriety and that means abstaining from all drugs and working a program of recovery. Many people who aren't willing to do so will continue to relapse once some time passes and end up back on to their DOC. It absolutely will affect success rate...

Also, I have never been to a rehab that would make you detox with no taper meds if you are physically addicted to a substance. Not only is that a horrible way for you to do it but its also dangerous most of the time. Any state run facility probably wont even allow you to do it without the meds because of liability.

Sounds like you had a bad experience with recovery and now hold a resentment towards it which I can totally understand. I have been in and out of recovery since 2012/2013 or so and I used to be very against rehab and 12 step programs until I realized that almost always the problem was me and not them.

If you are trying to get sober and need someone to talk to you can always send me a PM. I am always here to talk and try to help people find resources to do so if they are serious about it. Sobriety most the time doesn't look the way we want it to but it can be a great thing if you can just surrender to it.

The reason the rehab/recovery model is broken in my opinion is because in Florida/California (and other states im sure) they send you to Detox/Residential treatment and get you clean while charging your insurance a lot of money. Then they move you to an IOP which charges your insurance and usually that can pay for your housing in a sober living (which a lot of times is connected to the detox). When you relapse they dont really care because they send you back to the detox which again bills your insurance and the cycle begins. So they make money shipping you back and forth between the two. Do they want you to get sober? Maybe yes, but do they make money when you relapse? Absolutely.

There is a solution though and gets getting yourself out of that cycle and environment and truly giving yourself to a program of recovery. The 12 steps seem to be working well in my life currently. Will I stay sober forever? Who knows, but I am just staying with it for now.

Last thing... Once again, if anyone is struggling with addiction feel free to reach out to me. I am always here to talk and try to help.

much love,

_SD


--------------------
:gd_icon: If you get confused, listen to the music play :gd_icon:

:smugjerry: :feelswierman:

:wook: :barbershreds: :scumbagsteve:


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. (moved) [Re: dumbesthuman]
    #28008018 - 10/20/22 03:33 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

This thread was moved from The Psychedelic Experience.

Reason:
More suited here


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Offlinedumbesthuman
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze]
    #28008153 - 10/20/22 05:17 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SnowDaze said:
Ok so before I respond I just wanna say that the addiction treatment model IS broken but not for the reasons you are stating here.

They don't take your electronics/phone away from you to make you miserable and I have never been to a place that doesn't allow you to drink at least some coffee everyday. They might limit your caffeine intake or cut you off at a certain time of day but that is usually just do you will be able to sleep at night without problems. The reason they take your electronics/phone is so you can FOCUS ON YOUR RECOVERY and start to look inward rather than just distract yourself. When most people are able to keep their phone they are stuck thinking about outside things that they cant even probably deal with at the time which can lead them back out to using. Also it gives people connection to the outside which can make people seek drugs out when they in withdrawal which can make people leave the program.

I have been to places that don't take your phone/computer away from you and the rate of success (which is already low) is even lower at a place like that and they usually cost a lot more.

Your argument about how people should be able to take a xanax or another drug while they are in treatment for addiction is absolutely crazy. Most people cant stay clean unless they fully give themselves to sobriety and that means abstaining from all drugs and working a program of recovery. Many people who aren't willing to do so will continue to relapse once some time passes and end up back on to their DOC. It absolutely will affect success rate...

Also, I have never been to a rehab that would make you detox with no taper meds if you are physically addicted to a substance. Not only is that a horrible way for you to do it but its also dangerous most of the time. Any state run facility probably wont even allow you to do it without the meds because of liability.

Sounds like you had a bad experience with recovery and now hold a resentment towards it which I can totally understand. I have been in and out of recovery since 2012/2013 or so and I used to be very against rehab and 12 step programs until I realized that almost always the problem was me and not them.

If you are trying to get sober and need someone to talk to you can always send me a PM. I am always here to talk and try to help people find resources to do so if they are serious about it. Sobriety most the time doesn't look the way we want it to but it can be a great thing if you can just surrender to it.

The reason the rehab/recovery model is broken in my opinion is because in Florida/California (and other states im sure) they send you to Detox/Residential treatment and get you clean while charging your insurance a lot of money. Then they move you to an IOP which charges your insurance and usually that can pay for your housing in a sober living (which a lot of times is connected to the detox). When you relapse they dont really care because they send you back to the detox which again bills your insurance and the cycle begins. So they make money shipping you back and forth between the two. Do they want you to get sober? Maybe yes, but do they make money when you relapse? Absolutely.

There is a solution though and gets getting yourself out of that cycle and environment and truly giving yourself to a program of recovery. The 12 steps seem to be working well in my life currently. Will I stay sober forever? Who knows, but I am just staying with it for now.

Last thing... Once again, if anyone is struggling with addiction feel free to reach out to me. I am always here to talk and try to help.

much love,

_SD




thank u so much for the respect, that is an extremely valuable asset you have. and for my sources i went to mayo for stomach pain, they said u are not allowed painkillers, we need u to go to hazeldon, i went there, all they did was watch tv and talk about how if u leave there is only a 1% chance u ever recover. and no, no coffee, probably because i was a 19, young adult. but yes there are goups of people who have a problem like just with pot, they can use xans and heroin to help wean themselves off with low risk, they do not have the environment to do so for a reason. the twelve step program is brainwashing.

im not saying u are wrong, theres tons of ways to skin a cat, what im saying is drug addiction is most likley a feature that money is being spent to keep alive. ill come back and read your comment later just my basic response to someone who thinks, same reason meth is actually highly contaminated but it looks crystal clear. that is on purpose, it is honestly cheaper to make safe meth i shit you not


--------------------
had to make new account, last one got banned for "puppeting" whatever that means,

inherently dangerous ideas are frowned upon. it's extremely important to spread regardless. check out my linked in or heres a link to my quora for more info, basically people pretend coding subtext and lack of data does not exist and will put u on forced meds for admitting otherwise. imo ram das be here now is filled with lies laced with code. I think we need to seriously analyze coding as a group if we want to become "enlightened" in any way. interesting example hot rocks with trumps face and dogecoin putin's. also cancer cure likely launches nukes. NOT BLAMING SHROOMERY AT ALL IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT.

https://www.quora.com/profile/Eli-Rossman-4


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OfflineSnowDaze
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Registered: 02/24/13
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: dumbesthuman]
    #28008517 - 10/20/22 10:12 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

im hoping that you are trolling me...

they can use xans and heroin to get off weed??

im not trying to be disrespectful I just have a hard time believing that anyone would think that was a good idea


--------------------
:gd_icon: If you get confused, listen to the music play :gd_icon:

:smugjerry: :feelswierman:

:wook: :barbershreds: :scumbagsteve:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze] * 1
    #28008941 - 10/21/22 08:10 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Just a little bit of heroin & xanax while in rehab to help get off the weed he says...  :sadyes:

:ilold:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28008953 - 10/21/22 08:23 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Oddly enough heroin and benzos were what got me to stop smoking weed when I was 19 or so. When you're nodding off all day and spending all your money to starve off withdrawals the last thing you're thinking about is hitting the bong. I think this guy is on to something


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OfflineSnowDaze
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: feevers]
    #28009491 - 10/21/22 03:27 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

oh god.., troll food continues


--------------------
:gd_icon: If you get confused, listen to the music play :gd_icon:

:smugjerry: :feelswierman:

:wook: :barbershreds: :scumbagsteve:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: feevers]
    #28009773 - 10/21/22 06:19 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
Oddly enough heroin and benzos were what got me to stop smoking weed when I was 19 or so. When you're nodding off all day and spending all your money to starve off withdrawals the last thing you're thinking about is hitting the bong. I think this guy is on to something




Oddly enough me too. :snowman:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28009961 - 10/21/22 09:05 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

He should write a tek for that.  :grin:


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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OfflineCaptainTrips420
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Northerner]
    #28013005 - 10/23/22 06:09 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Drug treatment definitely harms me. If I have drug tests I’m going to use inhalants again. When I had drug tests I drank lots of alcohol took DXM Dimenhydrinate kratom spice LSD and DMT. I will just use more dangerous chemicals than weed if unavailable. Plus the whole thing is a waste of time at least for me I am determined to never quit.

I was drug tested by probation all the time and when I learned they thought I was going to be drug free permanently I got weed. I had half an ounce of weed 1 week before graduating drug treatment probation. They ended my probation and 30 minutes later I was smoking weed I freaked out thought they were playing a trick on me and where going to test me the next day almost had a panic attack. The whole thing was a waste of time just like all the other mental health nonsense.


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Offlineasterix
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: dumbesthuman]
    #28013208 - 10/23/22 08:22 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Ibogaine kicks rehab's ass when it comes to curing addiction.


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OfflineSnowDaze
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: asterix]
    #28015803 - 10/25/22 11:54 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

i mean i almost stopped smoking weed entirely when i was on heroin and benzos... hell i stopped doing everything altogether.

then of course i was addicted to heroin and benzos


there is no quick fix for addiction but I hear Ibogaine is about as close as you could get


AA is simple and works well for a lot of people. It just takes effort that most people are not willing to do. They refuse to believe they are not the center of the universe, there is no way a higher power of any kind could exist because they cant conceptualize god, and they put in minimal effort of going to a meeting or two/half assing the steps just to prove it wont work for their own ego because they couldnt ever be wrong.


--------------------
:gd_icon: If you get confused, listen to the music play :gd_icon:

:smugjerry: :feelswierman:

:wook: :barbershreds: :scumbagsteve:


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze]
    #28018300 - 10/26/22 07:57 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SnowDaze said:

AA is simple and works well for a lot of people. It just takes effort that most people are not willing to do. They refuse to believe they are not the center of the universe, there is no way a higher power of any kind could exist because they cant conceptualize god, and they put in minimal effort of going to a meeting or two/half assing the steps just to prove it wont work for their own ego because they couldnt ever be wrong.




AA admits they have never helped anyone defeat an addiction.  They say it's impossible.

Let's follow the science Shroomery peeps.  Ya don't need a higher power to change your behavior.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28018329 - 10/26/22 08:18 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

It's that exact flawed and obsolete science that makes me not have much respect for the program. I know you can defeat an addiction because I've defeated several. Drugs that I haven't considered in many years. If I was sat around talking and thinking about them they would still be a problem. Don't think of a black horse psychology in action.

"Oh, alcohol isn't a problem for me. I just sit around talking about it all the time even though I haven't drunk in years."

Seems like there's some dissonance there, to me. For others here who have overcome addictions they also truly understand the fallacy. Overcoming obsessive thinking and ruminating is the largest part of the challenge of addiction. Once you can scrape that shit off your plate you are good to go. No need to look back and dwell or ask imaginary friends for help. The addiction cycle is over.

I'm not saying AA isn't great for intervention, but as a long term solution it's got very poor outcomes, and that statement is supported by their recidivism rates. Most addicts do quit their addictions permanently, and most do it alone at home. That's some cold hard statistical facts.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Northerner]
    #28018465 - 10/26/22 10:13 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

That’s part of the problem I have with it.  It touts a sort of pseudo honesty which really never ever sat right with my better judgement + good sense.  Imho&e, it could stand to lose the parts that reify false dualistic division and maybe focus on whatever stands up to true scientific inquiry & careful philosophical scrutiny…all while doing time in the universal mind, of course.  Deep understanding trumps both self delusion & surrendering oneself to dogma :sadyes:

Ahh w/e…all roads lead to Rome and whatnot…:blah:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (10/26/22 10:22 PM)


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OfflinetheRealrollforever
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28018626 - 10/27/22 02:45 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Turn AA into a productive, inclusive place to recovery by simply changing with the times?

Your gonna hurt a lot of butts


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


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OfflineSnowDaze
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28019059 - 10/27/22 10:21 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

SnowDaze said:

AA is simple and works well for a lot of people. It just takes effort that most people are not willing to do. They refuse to believe they are not the center of the universe, there is no way a higher power of any kind could exist because they cant conceptualize god, and they put in minimal effort of going to a meeting or two/half assing the steps just to prove it wont work for their own ego because they couldnt ever be wrong.




AA admits they have never helped anyone defeat an addiction.  They say it's impossible.

Let's follow the science Shroomery peeps.  Ya don't need a higher power to change your behavior.




Actually, this is not true. The Big Book clearly says "Alcoholics Anonymous: The Story of How Many Thousands of Men and Women Have Recovered from Alcoholism". It says that it requires maintenance to stay recovered but people do recover.

There is also a big difference between having a dependency on something and having the disease of addiction/alcoholism.

We want others to have an open mindedness when it comes to drugs but when it comes to a higher power or the 12-steps we dont wanna have an open mind toward that.

12-step method has the best odds of recovery out of anything we currently have for addiction.


--------------------
:gd_icon: If you get confused, listen to the music play :gd_icon:

:smugjerry: :feelswierman:

:wook: :barbershreds: :scumbagsteve:


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OfflineSnowDaze
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Northerner]
    #28019063 - 10/27/22 10:24 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:

I'm not saying AA isn't great for intervention, but as a long term solution it's got very poor outcomes, and that statement is supported by their recidivism rates. Most addicts do quit their addictions permanently, and most do it alone at home. That's some cold hard statistical facts.




can you please show me where these statistical facts can be found?


--------------------
:gd_icon: If you get confused, listen to the music play :gd_icon:

:smugjerry: :feelswierman:

:wook: :barbershreds: :scumbagsteve:


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze]
    #28019081 - 10/27/22 10:32 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SnowDaze said:
12-step method has the best odds of recovery out of anything we currently have for addiction.




Not by a long shot.

As Northerner said, the majority of people who get clean do it without 12 step or any formal treatment at all.

Medication assisted treatment has the best success rates in terms of formal treatment, especially when combined with therapy. Partial hospitalization programs, IOP's and even basic outpatient CBT have equal or better (some studies say double) the success rate of 12 step programs

It's one tool that works for some people, most people need something else


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OfflineSnowDaze
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: feevers]
    #28019104 - 10/27/22 10:42 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

MAT isnt sobriety.

I was on MAT for years and although I had stopped doing heroin, i had just swapped addictions and then still was a slave to that.

PHP/IOP data would only show up to the point of where they exited the program as if they were "recovered" or not.

I would like to see the numbers on people who have gotten YEARS actually sober from only doing therapy


--------------------
:gd_icon: If you get confused, listen to the music play :gd_icon:

:smugjerry: :feelswierman:

:wook: :barbershreds: :scumbagsteve:


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OfflinetheRealrollforever
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: feevers]
    #28019639 - 10/27/22 03:30 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

SnowDaze said:
12-step method has the best odds of recovery out of anything we currently have for addiction.




Not by a long shot.

As Northerner said, the majority of people who get clean do it without 12 step or any formal treatment at all.

Medication assisted treatment has the best success rates in terms of formal treatment, especially when combined with therapy. Partial hospitalization programs, IOP's and even basic outpatient CBT have equal or better (some studies say double) the success rate of 12 step programs

It's one tool that works for some people, most people need something else



MAT is not sobriety

Fuckin recovery industry propaganda


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #28019734 - 10/27/22 04:02 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Here's an article that explains the progression of addictions and recovery times from a very large sample, and explains poor reporting of actual addiction and recovery rates.

Years ago I dug up the study and cross referenced the data and found it to be accurate.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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OfflinetheRealrollforever
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #28020479 - 10/27/22 10:24 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Interesting read, it is interesting that addiction can "age out". 
Definitely thought provoking


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


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OfflineSnowDaze
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #28020609 - 10/28/22 01:13 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

SnowDaze said:
12-step method has the best odds of recovery out of anything we currently have for addiction.




Not by a long shot.

As Northerner said, the majority of people who get clean do it without 12 step or any formal treatment at all.

Medication assisted treatment has the best success rates in terms of formal treatment, especially when combined with therapy. Partial hospitalization programs, IOP's and even basic outpatient CBT have equal or better (some studies say double) the success rate of 12 step programs

It's one tool that works for some people, most people need something else



MAT is not sobriety

Fuckin recovery industry propaganda




thats not propaganda bro...

how is being on opiates still being sober.

it might stop some of the behavior but you are still a slave to the drug. I was on methadone or suboxone for 5 years, im not just saying this shit from not experiencing it. I almost saw NO ONE get off methadone when going to the clinic and most people get on to subs and cant get off cause they cant handle the withdrawal.

are you on subs or something?


--------------------
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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze]
    #28020616 - 10/28/22 01:20 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Then technically that would mean no one is ever sober.  :lol:
Anyways you might want to check your definitions.  Sobriety, for one.
  No matter your personal opinions, and unfortunate experience with something that doesn’t mean it’s the end all be all about it as whole; rather, it’s more likely merely a facet of it. 

The evidence - empirical evidence - shows otherwise… and it’s pretty undeniable after decades upon decades of data.  You could say similarly of antidepressants, and I do, I hated my own experience with several of them, but I will still acknowledge that some people have an improvement in QOL after some trial and error.  Do I think there are better alternatives?  Damn straight I do.  But life isn’t usually that simple.

It’s one thing if you yourself do not respond well to a specific drug treatment and another if nobody does.  But for what they are intended to do they (methadone, & primarily bupe) are decent substitutes that allow some people to live normal lives with significantly improved QOL , and for others they are practically a god send for smoother, more humane detoxes from the harder, shorter acting substances of the same class.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (10/28/22 02:50 AM)


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OfflinetheRealrollforever
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze]
    #28020898 - 10/28/22 08:18 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SnowDaze said:
Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

SnowDaze said:
12-step method has the best odds of recovery out of anything we currently have for addiction.




Not by a long shot.

As Northerner said, the majority of people who get clean do it without 12 step or any formal treatment at all.

Medication assisted treatment has the best success rates in terms of formal treatment, especially when combined with therapy. Partial hospitalization programs, IOP's and even basic outpatient CBT have equal or better (some studies say double) the success rate of 12 step programs

It's one tool that works for some people, most people need something else



MAT is not sobriety

Fuckin recovery industry propaganda




thats not propaganda bro...

how is being on opiates still being sober.

it might stop some of the behavior but you are still a slave to the drug. I was on methadone or suboxone for 5 years, im not just saying this shit from not experiencing it. I almost saw NO ONE get off methadone when going to the clinic and most people get on to subs and cant get off cause they cant handle the withdrawal.

are you on subs or something?



I have no idea what you are saying...I'm shayin' that maintenance by definition is not sobriety.


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze]
    #28024114 - 10/30/22 08:01 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SnowDaze said:
Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

SnowDaze said:

AA is simple and works well for a lot of people. It just takes effort that most people are not willing to do. They refuse to believe they are not the center of the universe, there is no way a higher power of any kind could exist because they cant conceptualize god, and they put in minimal effort of going to a meeting or two/half assing the steps just to prove it wont work for their own ego because they couldnt ever be wrong.




AA admits they have never helped anyone defeat an addiction.  They say it's impossible.

Let's follow the science Shroomery peeps.  Ya don't need a higher power to change your behavior.




Actually, this is not true. The Big Book clearly says "Alcoholics Anonymous: The Story of How Many Thousands of Men and Women Have Recovered from Alcoholism". It says that it requires maintenance to stay recovered but people do recover.

There is also a big difference between having a dependency on something and having the disease of addiction/alcoholism.

We want others to have an open mindedness when it comes to drugs but when it comes to a higher power or the 12-steps we dont wanna have an open mind toward that.

12-step method has the best odds of recovery out of anything we currently have for addiction.




What's the big difference between having a dependency on something and having the disease of addiction/alcoholism? I could see a possible argument based on degrees of dependency, but IDK. There are degrees within alcoholism and addiction as well. Some alcoholics have fully functional work lives. Some doctors use heroin or other potent opiates throughout their lives but not every day.

To me, dependency and addiction are pretty synonymous.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #28024474 - 10/30/22 01:19 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Imho 100% agree.  It’s a spectrum.  Sliding scale.  Dependency covers it all - physical and psychological - they are not independent or altogether separate .  Again, dependency is all there is.  Addiction as a term needs to die hard and fast so that a clear picture of dependency reigns without the extra woo woo baggage mucking up the peoples minds anymore than they already naturally are.

The 12 step slogan “Keep it simple stupid” - taking on a whole new meaning.  :smirk:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (10/30/22 01:27 PM)


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Offlinestzacrack
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze] * 1
    #28025078 - 10/30/22 06:53 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SnowDaze said:
Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

SnowDaze said:
12-step method has the best odds of recovery out of anything we currently have for addiction.




Not by a long shot.

As Northerner said, the majority of people who get clean do it without 12 step or any formal treatment at all.

Medication assisted treatment has the best success rates in terms of formal treatment, especially when combined with therapy. Partial hospitalization programs, IOP's and even basic outpatient CBT have equal or better (some studies say double) the success rate of 12 step programs

It's one tool that works for some people, most people need something else



MAT is not sobriety

Fuckin recovery industry propaganda




thats not propaganda bro...

how is being on opiates still being sober.

it might stop some of the behavior but you are still a slave to the drug. I was on methadone or suboxone for 5 years, im not just saying this shit from not experiencing it. I almost saw NO ONE get off methadone when going to the clinic and most people get on to subs and cant get off cause they cant handle the withdrawal.

are you on subs or something?




I was on subs for a few years up until a few years back, when a new dr came in and said he wouldn't prescribe xanax and suboxone together, so I went home and kicked the subs cold turkey and got my xanax prescription back

It's quite a blessing not to be on subs anymore


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Offlinehjalmar
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: stzacrack] * 2
    #28064598 - 11/22/22 11:00 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

I've been addicted to opiates for several years, and managed to kick the habit. Although I tried many times, to quit cold turkey, I couldn't do it alone. Luckily in my country there is good support for people seeking to get treatment for addiction problems. First I got on methadone, very slowly tapered off from 80mg to 20 mg, over a year or so, then switched to suboxone. Although I haven't used in ~ a year, and last year I relapsed only 4 days in one year (one of them christmas, I'm sensitive to the dark and lonely days), I still take suboxone, as it is a partial agonist with high affinity for the µ opioid receptor. Meaning you can't really use opiates while on suboxone, it's throwing away money, so that is an additional safe-guard.

I've been inside rehab clinics quiet a few times, and eventually got into a year long program, in which they help you get your life back together. Although it took me 2 years, they've really helped me a lot.

I was able to settle all debts, cut all contacts with suppliers and other users, and get my life back together... got a job and went back to studying. Because most of the times when I relapsed, it was because of alcohol taking away all inhibitions. So when you're craving, the worst thing you can do is drink even a single beer, you will say "fuck it" and go score some, whereas otherwise you would try and fight it. That's why I've been taking antabuse the last 2 years. I never really had an alcohol problem, except that for every time I relapsed with opiates, there was alcohol consumption before.

I still go meet with a psychologist in the treatment center for an hour every week, I find it is good for many things, not just addiction related. They've really helped me learn to enjoy life without constant substance use. I occasionally smoke cannabis, meaning less than once a month. I find that I have seldomly been this active in life... I bake bread, made and maintained my own sourdough starter, go pick berries and make jam, I cook alot, in my free time there's always some project going. And I really enjoy it, and it is thanks to the help I received and still receive from the rehab treatment center people.


Edited by hjalmar (11/22/22 11:05 AM)


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OfflineSnowDaze
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: hjalmar] * 1
    #28089719 - 12/09/22 01:36 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

wanted to come back to apologize for the things I said about sobriety, MAT and more.

MAT is sobriety

there are many ways to get sober

I was letting the AA brainwash really get into me... fuck thats not good


--------------------
:gd_icon: If you get confused, listen to the music play :gd_icon:

:smugjerry: :feelswierman:

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OfflineMohinder
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze]
    #28091528 - 12/10/22 08:48 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SnowDaze said:
wanted to come back to apologize for the things I said about sobriety, MAT and more.

MAT is sobriety

there are many ways to get sober

I was letting the AA brainwash really get into me... fuck thats not good




I've been there to about the AA brain wash. Even though i respect AA because it did help me at a time of need, it is cult-like except the make-money concept. They also see ADHD medication as not being sober, which actually helps some people to stay sober. They're critical of medicinal practice in general and value their therapy above medicinal and psychological. Sometimes a good brain wash is better than to die from drug use but feels pretty good to not be brain washed and still drug free :rasta:


--------------------
My contributions


Alcohol free double extract TEK


Min-max Bag pasteurization TEK


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: feevers]
    #28140251 - 01/14/23 08:52 PM (1 year, 13 days ago)

Treatment has changed drastically. Drastically.
The problem it sounds like is you are going to state or federally funded treatment.Which follow evidence treatment models that medicaid/VA/medicare/IHS/insurance companies will  pay for.
There is a lot of success when you find someone who bases your needs on you. Not a cookie cutter treatment model that does not work for everyone.
The research and knowledge we have is so different then it was just 10 years ago. MAT has enormous success, 12 step has enormous success but it doesn't mean it works for everyone.
The problem usually isn't the provider/counselor/socialworker/psychologist/whatever they have to earn a paycheck and their paycheck is very small. No one goes into the field for the money. It is a thankless job that pays shit. They do it because they genuinely and sincerely have a desire to help others. The probably would assist differently if allowed or were taught.
Harm reduction is saving lives. And forcing government funded facilities to change their ways.
Find someone who treats you as an individual if you are unhappy.
And in treatment, jails and prisons- COFFEE rules everything. And if allowed cigarettes.
I envision future treatment to involve nutrition, breathwork, bodywork, meditation, etc. Which it does not but varies on where you go.


--------------------
“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”


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OfflineMoonlightblue
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: loladoreen] * 1
    #28140503 - 01/15/23 12:39 AM (1 year, 13 days ago)

Opiot and meth addiction is very difficult, I have seen it. Never done hard drugs myself.

I am a recovered alcoholic. The program dissolved my ego. That's all the cure I needed. I made friends in the meetings. Friendships are important. We never talked about the 12 steps outside of meetings. Or did cult like things.

Rehabs, though, seems like a longer, rocky road to recovery. I could be wrong. I wish it was easy to understand everything. But Science and the powers that be will never show us amazing recovery. And we can achieve.

Some do drugs, have a terrible experience, now they are scared straight, and never touch drugs again. Awesome.

Respect,


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Moonlightblue]
    #28142761 - 01/16/23 12:06 PM (1 year, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Moonlightblue said:

I am a recovered alcoholic. The program dissolved my ego. That's all the cure I needed. I made friends in the meetings. Friendships are important.




Did meeting people and making friends help to dissolve your ego?

How did this transform you from being "out of control" to now being in control? 

Or maybe you believe you were always making choices regarding drinking behaviors . . .


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OfflineMoonlightblue
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28147735 - 01/19/23 03:51 PM (1 year, 8 days ago)

Basically, AA texy book stuff is Kabalistic, hermetic philosophy, all religions evolved from the Kabalion text. Lost, translated, paganism ect.
I found the people there who seemed to understand the teaching of it.
2 people need each other for change; confirmation and witnessing. the twin aspect of it. (There's more to it)
I know it sound occultic, but wasn't isn't? Everything in this reality came about because of cults.
My choices are based of the teachings about cause and effect. I make good choices, they will bring about a positive ripple effect.
AA is pretty simple. It feels like control; master the work, become a master, not a pawn of the systen.

I drank of selfishness.


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OfflineAbombs
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Moonlightblue]
    #28152777 - 01/22/23 08:01 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

Fuck sobriety is hard.


Edited by Abombs (02/24/23 09:45 PM)


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OfflineAbombs
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Abombs] * 1
    #28152787 - 01/22/23 08:07 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

I also experienced a reset period at the hospital things became difficult and before I knew it a few days had gone by. I hadn't drank alcohol in years so waking up fuzzy was weird. The best thing about rehab was just hanging up on life for a couple weeks.

Cuz that's the thing they don't explain to YOU about life growing up. IT'S EVERY FUCKING DAY!


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OfflinetheRealrollforever
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Abombs] * 1
    #28153373 - 01/23/23 08:14 AM (1 year, 5 days ago)

They say every day is a gift.  Well why's it gotta be a pair of socks?


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


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OfflineAbombs
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #28153749 - 01/23/23 12:14 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

Hahaha that's great I'm gonna steal that line.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Abombs] * 1
    #28193493 - 02/18/23 06:20 PM (11 months, 2 days ago)

from the ages of 10 to almost 14, i spent most of my time in psychiatric facilities for the treatment of "depression". this was in the late 80s/early 90s when the "troubled teen" industry was taking off.

long story short, my maternal grandmother died young from cancer, and that made me really sad. i was put on high doses of antidepressants that made me a risk to myself and others. once i was in the system, they just kept giving me more meds. i finally ended up in a state hospital after my parents' insurance was bled dry. my doctor at the state hospital took me off all the meds i was taking, and within a month i reverted back to behaving like a normal little boy. my parents left me in there for another year though.

this was a deeply traumatizing experience that continues to shape my interpersonal relationships. i have major abandonment and intimacy issues that i will be working through for the rest of my life. the first time i masturbated was in my room at the state hospital. i knew what imprisonment felt like years before i knew how to make myself cum. i was also subjected to routine physical and sexual abuse at one of the facilities, and as a result i have trouble feeling safe in certain situations.

to me, these "treatment facilities" are just another form of privatized prisons. they are typically run by business people, and are focused on extracting as much money from you for as long as possible in exchange for the least amount of service. i will not pretend to know what the solution is for our mental health crisis, but i can tell you for sure that this ain't it.

the best luck i've had is with 1-1 counseling. but it's like dating. you have to find the right therapist for you, and that can be really hard.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Anonymous #1

Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: millzy] * 1
    #28193650 - 02/18/23 08:33 PM (11 months, 2 days ago)

The post above makes me sad. Situations like that persons are very traumatizing.
I have been in an emotional trauma recovery unit about 30 years ago. (I was an adult at the time) Probably saved me from myself.
I have seen other peoples lives dramatically change from going to mental health and substance use inpatient treatment, going by force and by choice. I have seen both be amazing.
I struggle with children going.
I dont know if there is a right or wrong answer to all of this.
Some NEED it. Some have guardians who are not qualified to care for them so they put them in- out of not knowing what to do.
Some are severely traumatized from it.
I am a not a supporter of incarceration, with the exception of some crimes. I do fully support people getting help.
My experiences are different then many. I do have worked in corrections. I have worked in in patient facilities. Corrections is so so so traumatizing and most dont belong there.
I am conflicted on my feelings..
With adults, I see harm but I see more good. A LOT more good.
But with children.... i am so conflicted.


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Anonymous #1

Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze]
    #28197977 - 02/21/23 07:04 PM (10 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

SnowDaze said:
wanted to come back to apologize for the things I said about sobriety, MAT and more.

MAT is sobriety

there are many ways to get sober

I was letting the AA brainwash really get into me... fuck thats not good



:smile:


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OfflineLucisM
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #28203277 - 02/24/23 09:21 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

I believe people cannot become sober until they truly want to become sober, you can't force someone to be sober so if someone has tried to force a loved one to be sober they probably will not become sober.

The individual that is trying to get sober has to decide on their own if being sober is what they want to do without their arm being twisted.


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Lucis] * 1
    #28203330 - 02/24/23 10:47 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

That's always been sound advice, I don't think it's that black and white anymore though. I've seen people get sectioned or involuntarily forced into sobriety and had it stick, it's not the norm but it does work for some. With people in my own life I've definitely been more hands off and tried to let them figure things out on their own, but after losing close friend after friend to fentanyl I can't really argue against the "get them clean by any means necessary" approach. Every single day of actively using is genuinely Russian roulette with the way things are now

I hate Suboxone/methadone because I feel like they fucked my brain up in the long term way more then heroin ever did, with their long half-lifes leading to a brain that is fully loaded 24/7 for months/years on end as opposed to the highs and lows of real dope. At this point they're truly a second chance at life for people though, my philosophy now is to just try to get them on the doctor dope asap and hope they can figure the rest out later. At least it gives them a later


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