Home | Community | Message Board

Cannabis Seeds - Original Sensible Seeds
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineSnowDaze
Probably Relapsing on Heroin
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 5,996
Loc: Home, Home Again....
Last seen: 5 months, 11 days
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: feevers]
    #28019104 - 10/27/22 10:42 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

MAT isnt sobriety.

I was on MAT for years and although I had stopped doing heroin, i had just swapped addictions and then still was a slave to that.

PHP/IOP data would only show up to the point of where they exited the program as if they were "recovered" or not.

I would like to see the numbers on people who have gotten YEARS actually sober from only doing therapy


--------------------
:gd_icon: If you get confused, listen to the music play :gd_icon:

:smugjerry: :feelswierman:

:wook: :barbershreds: :scumbagsteve:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinetheRealrollforever
I DID-DENT
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 12,736
Loc: Bada-Bing!
Last seen: 1 day, 19 hours
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: feevers]
    #28019639 - 10/27/22 03:30 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

SnowDaze said:
12-step method has the best odds of recovery out of anything we currently have for addiction.




Not by a long shot.

As Northerner said, the majority of people who get clean do it without 12 step or any formal treatment at all.

Medication assisted treatment has the best success rates in terms of formal treatment, especially when combined with therapy. Partial hospitalization programs, IOP's and even basic outpatient CBT have equal or better (some studies say double) the success rate of 12 step programs

It's one tool that works for some people, most people need something else



MAT is not sobriety

Fuckin recovery industry propaganda


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNorthernerM
splelling chceker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/29/12
Posts: 14,137
Loc: FNQ
Last seen: 7 hours, 13 minutes
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #28019734 - 10/27/22 04:02 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Here's an article that explains the progression of addictions and recovery times from a very large sample, and explains poor reporting of actual addiction and recovery rates.

Years ago I dug up the study and cross referenced the data and found it to be accurate.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinetheRealrollforever
I DID-DENT
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 12,736
Loc: Bada-Bing!
Last seen: 1 day, 19 hours
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #28020479 - 10/27/22 10:24 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Interesting read, it is interesting that addiction can "age out". 
Definitely thought provoking


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSnowDaze
Probably Relapsing on Heroin
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 5,996
Loc: Home, Home Again....
Last seen: 5 months, 11 days
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #28020609 - 10/28/22 01:13 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

SnowDaze said:
12-step method has the best odds of recovery out of anything we currently have for addiction.




Not by a long shot.

As Northerner said, the majority of people who get clean do it without 12 step or any formal treatment at all.

Medication assisted treatment has the best success rates in terms of formal treatment, especially when combined with therapy. Partial hospitalization programs, IOP's and even basic outpatient CBT have equal or better (some studies say double) the success rate of 12 step programs

It's one tool that works for some people, most people need something else



MAT is not sobriety

Fuckin recovery industry propaganda




thats not propaganda bro...

how is being on opiates still being sober.

it might stop some of the behavior but you are still a slave to the drug. I was on methadone or suboxone for 5 years, im not just saying this shit from not experiencing it. I almost saw NO ONE get off methadone when going to the clinic and most people get on to subs and cant get off cause they cant handle the withdrawal.

are you on subs or something?


--------------------
:gd_icon: If you get confused, listen to the music play :gd_icon:

:smugjerry: :feelswierman:

:wook: :barbershreds: :scumbagsteve:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze]
    #28020616 - 10/28/22 01:20 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Then technically that would mean no one is ever sober.  :lol:
Anyways you might want to check your definitions.  Sobriety, for one.
  No matter your personal opinions, and unfortunate experience with something that doesn’t mean it’s the end all be all about it as whole; rather, it’s more likely merely a facet of it. 

The evidence - empirical evidence - shows otherwise… and it’s pretty undeniable after decades upon decades of data.  You could say similarly of antidepressants, and I do, I hated my own experience with several of them, but I will still acknowledge that some people have an improvement in QOL after some trial and error.  Do I think there are better alternatives?  Damn straight I do.  But life isn’t usually that simple.

It’s one thing if you yourself do not respond well to a specific drug treatment and another if nobody does.  But for what they are intended to do they (methadone, & primarily bupe) are decent substitutes that allow some people to live normal lives with significantly improved QOL , and for others they are practically a god send for smoother, more humane detoxes from the harder, shorter acting substances of the same class.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (10/28/22 02:50 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinetheRealrollforever
I DID-DENT
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 12,736
Loc: Bada-Bing!
Last seen: 1 day, 19 hours
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze]
    #28020898 - 10/28/22 08:18 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SnowDaze said:
Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

SnowDaze said:
12-step method has the best odds of recovery out of anything we currently have for addiction.




Not by a long shot.

As Northerner said, the majority of people who get clean do it without 12 step or any formal treatment at all.

Medication assisted treatment has the best success rates in terms of formal treatment, especially when combined with therapy. Partial hospitalization programs, IOP's and even basic outpatient CBT have equal or better (some studies say double) the success rate of 12 step programs

It's one tool that works for some people, most people need something else



MAT is not sobriety

Fuckin recovery industry propaganda




thats not propaganda bro...

how is being on opiates still being sober.

it might stop some of the behavior but you are still a slave to the drug. I was on methadone or suboxone for 5 years, im not just saying this shit from not experiencing it. I almost saw NO ONE get off methadone when going to the clinic and most people get on to subs and cant get off cause they cant handle the withdrawal.

are you on subs or something?



I have no idea what you are saying...I'm shayin' that maintenance by definition is not sobriety.


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrian Jones
Club 27
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,340
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 6 hours, 27 minutes
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze]
    #28024114 - 10/30/22 08:01 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SnowDaze said:
Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

SnowDaze said:

AA is simple and works well for a lot of people. It just takes effort that most people are not willing to do. They refuse to believe they are not the center of the universe, there is no way a higher power of any kind could exist because they cant conceptualize god, and they put in minimal effort of going to a meeting or two/half assing the steps just to prove it wont work for their own ego because they couldnt ever be wrong.




AA admits they have never helped anyone defeat an addiction.  They say it's impossible.

Let's follow the science Shroomery peeps.  Ya don't need a higher power to change your behavior.




Actually, this is not true. The Big Book clearly says "Alcoholics Anonymous: The Story of How Many Thousands of Men and Women Have Recovered from Alcoholism". It says that it requires maintenance to stay recovered but people do recover.

There is also a big difference between having a dependency on something and having the disease of addiction/alcoholism.

We want others to have an open mindedness when it comes to drugs but when it comes to a higher power or the 12-steps we dont wanna have an open mind toward that.

12-step method has the best odds of recovery out of anything we currently have for addiction.




What's the big difference between having a dependency on something and having the disease of addiction/alcoholism? I could see a possible argument based on degrees of dependency, but IDK. There are degrees within alcoholism and addiction as well. Some alcoholics have fully functional work lives. Some doctors use heroin or other potent opiates throughout their lives but not every day.

To me, dependency and addiction are pretty synonymous.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #28024474 - 10/30/22 01:19 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Imho 100% agree.  It’s a spectrum.  Sliding scale.  Dependency covers it all - physical and psychological - they are not independent or altogether separate .  Again, dependency is all there is.  Addiction as a term needs to die hard and fast so that a clear picture of dependency reigns without the extra woo woo baggage mucking up the peoples minds anymore than they already naturally are.

The 12 step slogan “Keep it simple stupid” - taking on a whole new meaning.  :smirk:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (10/30/22 01:27 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinestzacrack
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/05
Posts: 3,862
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 hours, 36 minutes
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze] * 1
    #28025078 - 10/30/22 06:53 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SnowDaze said:
Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

SnowDaze said:
12-step method has the best odds of recovery out of anything we currently have for addiction.




Not by a long shot.

As Northerner said, the majority of people who get clean do it without 12 step or any formal treatment at all.

Medication assisted treatment has the best success rates in terms of formal treatment, especially when combined with therapy. Partial hospitalization programs, IOP's and even basic outpatient CBT have equal or better (some studies say double) the success rate of 12 step programs

It's one tool that works for some people, most people need something else



MAT is not sobriety

Fuckin recovery industry propaganda




thats not propaganda bro...

how is being on opiates still being sober.

it might stop some of the behavior but you are still a slave to the drug. I was on methadone or suboxone for 5 years, im not just saying this shit from not experiencing it. I almost saw NO ONE get off methadone when going to the clinic and most people get on to subs and cant get off cause they cant handle the withdrawal.

are you on subs or something?




I was on subs for a few years up until a few years back, when a new dr came in and said he wouldn't prescribe xanax and suboxone together, so I went home and kicked the subs cold turkey and got my xanax prescription back

It's quite a blessing not to be on subs anymore


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehjalmar
chemist, autist
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 295
Loc: Belgica Secunda
Last seen: 9 months, 24 days
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: stzacrack] * 2
    #28064598 - 11/22/22 11:00 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

I've been addicted to opiates for several years, and managed to kick the habit. Although I tried many times, to quit cold turkey, I couldn't do it alone. Luckily in my country there is good support for people seeking to get treatment for addiction problems. First I got on methadone, very slowly tapered off from 80mg to 20 mg, over a year or so, then switched to suboxone. Although I haven't used in ~ a year, and last year I relapsed only 4 days in one year (one of them christmas, I'm sensitive to the dark and lonely days), I still take suboxone, as it is a partial agonist with high affinity for the µ opioid receptor. Meaning you can't really use opiates while on suboxone, it's throwing away money, so that is an additional safe-guard.

I've been inside rehab clinics quiet a few times, and eventually got into a year long program, in which they help you get your life back together. Although it took me 2 years, they've really helped me a lot.

I was able to settle all debts, cut all contacts with suppliers and other users, and get my life back together... got a job and went back to studying. Because most of the times when I relapsed, it was because of alcohol taking away all inhibitions. So when you're craving, the worst thing you can do is drink even a single beer, you will say "fuck it" and go score some, whereas otherwise you would try and fight it. That's why I've been taking antabuse the last 2 years. I never really had an alcohol problem, except that for every time I relapsed with opiates, there was alcohol consumption before.

I still go meet with a psychologist in the treatment center for an hour every week, I find it is good for many things, not just addiction related. They've really helped me learn to enjoy life without constant substance use. I occasionally smoke cannabis, meaning less than once a month. I find that I have seldomly been this active in life... I bake bread, made and maintained my own sourdough starter, go pick berries and make jam, I cook alot, in my free time there's always some project going. And I really enjoy it, and it is thanks to the help I received and still receive from the rehab treatment center people.


Edited by hjalmar (11/22/22 11:05 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSnowDaze
Probably Relapsing on Heroin
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 5,996
Loc: Home, Home Again....
Last seen: 5 months, 11 days
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: hjalmar] * 1
    #28089719 - 12/09/22 01:36 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

wanted to come back to apologize for the things I said about sobriety, MAT and more.

MAT is sobriety

there are many ways to get sober

I was letting the AA brainwash really get into me... fuck thats not good


--------------------
:gd_icon: If you get confused, listen to the music play :gd_icon:

:smugjerry: :feelswierman:

:wook: :barbershreds: :scumbagsteve:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMohinder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/15/20
Posts: 93
Last seen: 5 months, 12 days
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: SnowDaze]
    #28091528 - 12/10/22 08:48 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SnowDaze said:
wanted to come back to apologize for the things I said about sobriety, MAT and more.

MAT is sobriety

there are many ways to get sober

I was letting the AA brainwash really get into me... fuck thats not good




I've been there to about the AA brain wash. Even though i respect AA because it did help me at a time of need, it is cult-like except the make-money concept. They also see ADHD medication as not being sober, which actually helps some people to stay sober. They're critical of medicinal practice in general and value their therapy above medicinal and psychological. Sometimes a good brain wash is better than to die from drug use but feels pretty good to not be brain washed and still drug free :rasta:


--------------------
My contributions


Alcohol free double extract TEK


Min-max Bag pasteurization TEK


"I choose a lazy person to do a hard job. Because a lazy person will find an easy way to do it." - Bill Gates


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleloladoreen
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,327
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: feevers]
    #28140251 - 01/14/23 08:52 PM (1 year, 13 days ago)

Treatment has changed drastically. Drastically.
The problem it sounds like is you are going to state or federally funded treatment.Which follow evidence treatment models that medicaid/VA/medicare/IHS/insurance companies will  pay for.
There is a lot of success when you find someone who bases your needs on you. Not a cookie cutter treatment model that does not work for everyone.
The research and knowledge we have is so different then it was just 10 years ago. MAT has enormous success, 12 step has enormous success but it doesn't mean it works for everyone.
The problem usually isn't the provider/counselor/socialworker/psychologist/whatever they have to earn a paycheck and their paycheck is very small. No one goes into the field for the money. It is a thankless job that pays shit. They do it because they genuinely and sincerely have a desire to help others. The probably would assist differently if allowed or were taught.
Harm reduction is saving lives. And forcing government funded facilities to change their ways.
Find someone who treats you as an individual if you are unhappy.
And in treatment, jails and prisons- COFFEE rules everything. And if allowed cigarettes.
I envision future treatment to involve nutrition, breathwork, bodywork, meditation, etc. Which it does not but varies on where you go.


--------------------
“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMoonlightblue
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 455
Last seen: 1 year, 8 days
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: loladoreen] * 1
    #28140503 - 01/15/23 12:39 AM (1 year, 13 days ago)

Opiot and meth addiction is very difficult, I have seen it. Never done hard drugs myself.

I am a recovered alcoholic. The program dissolved my ego. That's all the cure I needed. I made friends in the meetings. Friendships are important. We never talked about the 12 steps outside of meetings. Or did cult like things.

Rehabs, though, seems like a longer, rocky road to recovery. I could be wrong. I wish it was easy to understand everything. But Science and the powers that be will never show us amazing recovery. And we can achieve.

Some do drugs, have a terrible experience, now they are scared straight, and never touch drugs again. Awesome.

Respect,


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,010
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 1 day, 5 hours
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Moonlightblue]
    #28142761 - 01/16/23 12:06 PM (1 year, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Moonlightblue said:

I am a recovered alcoholic. The program dissolved my ego. That's all the cure I needed. I made friends in the meetings. Friendships are important.




Did meeting people and making friends help to dissolve your ego?

How did this transform you from being "out of control" to now being in control? 

Or maybe you believe you were always making choices regarding drinking behaviors . . .


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMoonlightblue
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 455
Last seen: 1 year, 8 days
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28147735 - 01/19/23 03:51 PM (1 year, 8 days ago)

Basically, AA texy book stuff is Kabalistic, hermetic philosophy, all religions evolved from the Kabalion text. Lost, translated, paganism ect.
I found the people there who seemed to understand the teaching of it.
2 people need each other for change; confirmation and witnessing. the twin aspect of it. (There's more to it)
I know it sound occultic, but wasn't isn't? Everything in this reality came about because of cults.
My choices are based of the teachings about cause and effect. I make good choices, they will bring about a positive ripple effect.
AA is pretty simple. It feels like control; master the work, become a master, not a pawn of the systen.

I drank of selfishness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAbombs
Chaotic Neutral
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/17/21
Posts: 884
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Moonlightblue]
    #28152777 - 01/22/23 08:01 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

Fuck sobriety is hard.


Edited by Abombs (02/24/23 09:45 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAbombs
Chaotic Neutral
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/17/21
Posts: 884
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Abombs] * 1
    #28152787 - 01/22/23 08:07 PM (1 year, 5 days ago)

I also experienced a reset period at the hospital things became difficult and before I knew it a few days had gone by. I hadn't drank alcohol in years so waking up fuzzy was weird. The best thing about rehab was just hanging up on life for a couple weeks.

Cuz that's the thing they don't explain to YOU about life growing up. IT'S EVERY FUCKING DAY!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinetheRealrollforever
I DID-DENT
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 12,736
Loc: Bada-Bing!
Last seen: 1 day, 19 hours
Re: about rehab and it hurting people. [Re: Abombs] * 1
    #28153373 - 01/23/23 08:14 AM (1 year, 5 days ago)

They say every day is a gift.  Well why's it gotta be a pair of socks?


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Hospital, meds...hard decisions.
( 1 2 all )
MOTH 4,520 33 04/04/06 01:56 PM
by cybrbeast
* i am hurt by being alive *edit* but not for long ... i quit opiates HB 1,423 8 12/11/04 05:54 PM
by Worf
* For Those Who Have Been In Rehab the free thinker 2,944 16 11/07/03 09:17 PM
by Osker246
* Fucked up hospital experience *Updated* Should I sue??? Bi0TeK 1,994 15 03/19/04 11:07 PM
by Bi0TeK
* Dream about birth and death in hospital EternalCowabunga 529 0 07/08/07 07:56 AM
by EternalCowabunga
* I spent christmas in a psyc. hospital....
( 1 2 all )
TameMe 2,889 31 01/19/06 07:58 PM
by TameMe
* Traumatized From a Seizure? Earth_Droid 1,290 3 04/29/03 12:12 AM
by I_Fart_Blue
* Rehab, good idea? Captain Loafy McPoopdick 1,636 17 01/27/06 07:39 PM
by kotik

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: CherryBom, Rose, mndfreeze, yogabunny, feevers, CookieCrumbs, Northerner
1,105 topic views. 0 members, 1 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.034 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 16 queries.