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Offlinemistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
Last seen: 3 months, 27 days
Pasteurization, simple / advanced question
    #28003237 - 10/17/22 02:37 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

There is quite a few ways cultivators DIY pasteurize subtrates... Monitored boiling, oven, Sous Vides, instapot, etc.

...there are also just as many opinions as to the temperatures one needs to kill off the harmful organisms and retain the helpful ones.

I thought I would post here to attempt to get a more solid answer

Although I am tempted to use an oven since it would do a whole lot of sub at once, I am a bit doubtful of getting an even internal temperature - so my plan at the moment is to use my Insta-pot...

According to the manual the "keep warm" setting holds a temp of 145 ~ 172Β°F which seems ideal to me. there's also a "milk pateurization" setting that is 160~180Β°F but thinking this may be too hot?

Googling the term pasteurization seems to indicate that it could involve a temp of 145f for 30 minutes - sounds ideal ( this refers to milk however / so it might not entirely relate )... 



Skimming the boards here for answers, I typically see higher numbers for longer times - usually around 160, sometimes as high as 180f.

What temperature is too hot ( what starts killing off beneficial bacteria etc. ) for typical substrates such as coir, verm, peat, straw, manure  ? ...
probably depends on duration I'm guessing, but want to feel confident that 145f - 172f is an acceptable sweet spot for keeping the good bugs and removing the bad ones.

Thanks.

Edited by mistermushly (10/17/22 06:08 PM)

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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: mistermushly]
    #28003961 - 10/17/22 10:03 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

If you're not using manure you don't need to pasteurize your substrate, in fact it's a waste of time using coir. Just add regular temperature water mix and enjoy. Coir is inert and nutrition-less medium which is why spores have a very difficult time germinating on it alone.



--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"

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Offlinemistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
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Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #28004010 - 10/17/22 10:58 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Thank you  for the reply OfflineEclipse3130.

This question mostly came up since I am venturing beyond cubes into Pans + others that require substrates like manure and straw.

I have done a simple boiling water pasteurization  into a cooler with a coir / Verm mix (* modified bucket Tek ) for cubes and have had very little contamination, though as you mentioned Coir and I believe Vermiculite aren't something that contaminates easily if at all.

I could simply follow the path of others that use successful pasteurization techniques for pans, but since there is much conflicting information about what exactly is required temperature and time-wise for a proper pasteurization I thought it may be wise to0 check if there were some opinions about what is ideal.

It would be great to keep the temperature low enough to retain the "helpful" organisms + bacteria while eliminating the harmful ones. Do you think 145F for 30 minutes as mentioned would work, or does the substrate consists of ( straw, manure, etc) play a role and the temp and time should be adjusted?

thanks -

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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: mistermushly]
    #28004116 - 10/18/22 02:03 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Manure and straw require proper pasteurization,  165F for an hour minimum.

Bucket pasteurizing is not pasteurizing, don't be fooled by shortcuts.

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Offlinemistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
Last seen: 3 months, 27 days
Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #28004138 - 10/18/22 03:27 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

For those who may be interested - looks like my Insta-pot doesn't have settings that will work - it doesn't get hot enough / or gets too hot - I tried a "milk pasteurization" setting that is supposed to climb to 180f then cool down, but after testing with a thermometer I found that the top of the substrate temperature only reached around 130F ...

..so I purchased a wireless meat thermometer and plan on using a covered foil pan in the oven while monitoring the internal temperature...

After weeding through a few more opinions - it seems you're advice is pretty solid Derrayld - thanks. My conclusion is that 160 to 170 is ideal. I'm going to shoot for 165f as you suggested. Some say above 180 or even 170f will kill off beneficial bacterial spores, so I plan on keeping the temp under 170f to err on the side of caution.

more collected opinions ( for straw and manure )..

Opinion =  140 to 160 for 1 to 2 hours
Opinion =  140-150F for 90 minutes
Opinion =  160 degrees for 30 minutes
Opinion =  160-180F for 1-3 hours
Opinion =  A core temp of 140-160f for 90min.   

Edited by mistermushly (10/18/22 04:32 PM)

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Offlinelivelogikal
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Registered: 06/06/15
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Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #28005589 - 10/18/22 10:25 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Man I love this concept. But I've had coir contaminate as often as manure. Maybe use boiling water I might try to saturate the coir.

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Offlinemistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
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Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: livelogikal]
    #28005675 - 10/19/22 12:05 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I can't remember the last time I had Coir contaminate using the technique of pouring boiling water over it in an insulated cooler. Growing cubes, eventually things will start to contaminate after a few months around the 3rd or 4th flush, though I think it's likely the spawn giving up the fight, not the sub. As clipse3130 mentioned, Coir doesn't tend to contaminate easily since it has little to no nutrients and may not really need to be pasteurized at all, it is also heat treated during the manufacturing process as well which essentially sterilizes it I believe.

Looks like one needs to be more precise regarding temperature - using manure and straw, boiling may  though the oven method would probably work for any sub including coir. looks like you need to maintain a temp of around 165 for at least an hour as DERRAYLD suggests.

I am attracted to the precision of the oven method rather that pouring 212 Β°F water and possibly killing the good bugs, and possibly cooling down too quickly to kill the bad bugs.

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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: livelogikal]
    #28006174 - 10/19/22 10:05 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

livelogikal said:
Man I love this concept. But I've had coir contaminate as often as manure. Maybe use boiling water I might try to saturate the coir.




How can you tell if you're not leaving it out on its own?

If its already mixed with spawn, 99% of the time it's the spawn.

Ive let my coir hydrated with cold water sit in bags for 100+ days with no visible contamination, I commonly use coir weeks after making big batches.


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: livelogikal]
    #28006322 - 10/19/22 11:32 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

livelogikal said:
Man I love this concept. But I've had coir contaminate as often as manure. Maybe use boiling water I might try to saturate the coir.



coir does not contaminate. either the spawn was bad or the coir had something mixed into it

if cold water prep doesnt work, boiling wont either

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Offlinemistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
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Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: bakedbeings]
    #28006503 - 10/19/22 01:49 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Yes, Coir has a very high resistance to contamination due to many factors.
this is the advanced mycology board, so ...

... the main idea of this thread is to get educated opinions on the ideal Pasteurization temperatures / times for substrates that do tend to contaminate such as straw and manure, since there is a lot of varied opinions about this.

Also sharing the method I am currently pasteurizing- and getting input on the most effective ways.

Edited by mistermushly (10/19/22 03:22 PM)

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InvisibleSuckatshrooms
Seriously, don’t listen to me.
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Registered: 09/26/22
Posts: 157
Loc: Tamaulipas, Mexico
Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: mistermushly]
    #28012210 - 10/23/22 09:50 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mistermushly said:
Yes, Coir has a very high resistance to contamination due to many factors.
this is the advanced mycology board, so ...

... the main idea of this thread is to get educated opinions on the ideal Pasteurization temperatures / times for substrates that do tend to contaminate such as straw and manure, since there is a lot of varied opinions about this.

Also sharing the method I am currently pasteurizing- and getting input on the most effective ways.



I have a ridiculous amount of experience with probiotics and pasteurization isn’t your best bet for your goals. It would be way easier and effective to just sterilize/hydrate with a PC followed by dilute inoculation with a ginger bug or tibicos/water kefir culture.

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Offlinemistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
Last seen: 3 months, 27 days
Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: Suckatshrooms]
    #28012631 - 10/23/22 02:16 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

oh, "inoculation with a ginger bug or tibicos/water kefir culture" sounds way easier! I've heard that's what a lot of cultivators do :lol:
not sure if this is legit, excuse me if it is.

Jeeze - I'd really just like to know the ideal temperature for pasteurization and the best approach. No debate about Coir contamination, or arcane (trolly?) advice.

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: mistermushly]
    #28012667 - 10/23/22 02:39 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DERRAYLD said:
165F for an hour minimum.




Quote:

No debate about Coir contamination, or arcane (trolly?) advice.



you had your answer. i was responding to another comment on this thread

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Offlinemistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
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Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: bakedbeings]
    #28013318 - 10/23/22 09:36 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I apologize bakedbeings.

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Pasteurization, simple / advanced question [Re: mistermushly]
    #28013332 - 10/23/22 09:50 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

all good :smile:

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