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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27991332 - 10/10/22 04:45 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Can translate a quote or something lol?


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27992085 - 10/10/22 02:07 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

I don't know how much I'd consider a lot of those parties 'rivals' - almost none of them held a single seat in the legislature.

They were banned based on some forms of evidence of collaboration with the local government coups in the east, or other forms of collaboration. I didn't really review any of those cases but yeah.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27993136 - 10/11/22 04:15 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Can translate a quote or something lol?




I can't remember how I got Google Translate but that's what I use in Chrome :shrug:

It was a lot to go through and I didn't want to be accused of cherry picking information, so here's the entire article.



Quote:

Strana has obtained a new draft law on media, which will be submitted to the Rada after July 1.

This document replaced the previous bill, on which pro-government deputies and officials of the Ministry of Culture worked for five months.

In May of this year, after numerous complaints from the media community, the "old" project was sent for rework. In the relevant committee - on issues of humanitarian policy - they reassured journalists as best they could that the new document would take into account all their claims.

"Strana" read the new bill, and it turned out that almost all the most scandalous norms of its predecessor migrated to it. Moreover, some of them have been seriously strengthened and expanded. And in general, the law has become even more repressive in relation to the media.

Twin brother of the old project
The list of complaints from the media community to the "old" project was quite extensive. The main one is that the government gave virtually unlimited powers to the National Council for Television and Radio Broadcasting, which will oversee all media in Ukraine (and not just radio and TV, as it is now), including the right to block objectionable online publications.

"Country" has repeatedly analyzed in detail the "gross" violations that could lead to the blocking of sites.

Initially, they wanted to adopt the bill on media in the "green printer" mode.

But the harsh criticism to which he was subjected both by Ukrainian media workers and a number of international organizations, including the OSCE , forced the mono-majority to slow down the process. The committee withdrew the draft and began to refine it. And already in mid-June, it turned out that the new version of the bill was almost ready.

"This is an updated version, on which the working group, together with deputies, industry representatives, experts from the Council of Europe and all interested parties, worked for about six months," said Yevgenia Kravchuk, deputy head of the committee on humanitarian policy.

In a conversation with Strana, the deputy explained that the document will be registered in the Verkhovna Rada after July 1 , first it will be presented at a meeting of the relevant committee, and after that it will appear on the website of the Rada.

By the way, as Strana has already written , one of the main reasons for the delay in considering the bill was the incomprehensible situation with the National Council for Television and Radio Broadcasting. More precisely, with those who will control this body, which the new law endowed with superpowers.

We described in detail the alignment of forces in the National Council, the majority of which now belongs not to the president, but to representatives of the largest oligarchic groups.

However, in the near future, according to "Strana", the process of its rotation will be launched. The Rada will express no confidence in the National Council, which will lead to the automatic dismissal of half (four) of its members appointed according to the parliamentary quota. And new people will come in their place, selected taking into account the wishes of Bankova.

Thus, by the time the law is adopted, the National Council will already be formed and will be controlled by Zelensky. At least, this is the plan of Bankova. But in Parliament its implementation, it is possible, will meet with resistance. Which, by the way, can slow down the process of approving the bill.

What has changed in the new project
The form of the updated bill, which was at the disposal of the "Strana", has not changed much.

Instead of 124 articles on 174 pages, there were 126 on 183 pages. Both in the first case and in the second, the essence of the document is presented in 10 sections. In terms of structure, the difference, perhaps, is only in the fact that a separate article has appeared on the media of the Ministry of Defense and military-civilian administrations.

The bill tried to clarify a number of basic definitions. For example, in the concept of "online media" a clarification was added that this is a media that not only distributes information using the Internet, but also has "its own website or its own page on an information sharing platform."

Obviously, with such a clarification, the legislators tried to get bloggers out of the law.

But the reference that the dissemination of information should take place on a personal page on an information sharing platform (for example, a personal page on any social network) still classifies bloggers as online media.

But in the term "media" (mass media), they added a clarification that this is a means of disseminating mass information in any form, which periodically or regularly comes out under editorial control. Therefore, if we take the same bloggers, no one exercises editorial control over them, which means that they can no longer be classified as ordinary media.

A large block of new terms appeared in the draft law, such as: who is the ultimate beneficial owner of media entities, who is the key participant in a media entity, what are signs of indirect and direct decisive influence on media activities, and other terms that relate to the media ownership structure.

An important point should be noted. All these additions, according to the outgoing data of the bill, were made by a certain Tatyana Smirnova. A person with the same name is a lawyer for the 1+1 TV channel.

As before, the National Broadcasting Council will oversee the entire media market. The new project simplified the requirements for its members. For example, if earlier those who were 30 years old could become a member of the Regulator, now there is no age limit at all. However, priority in the appointment will be given taking into account gender equality. That is, if there is a majority of men in the National Council, then women should be appointed to vacant positions. And vice versa.

The patronage service will organize the work of the National Council. Moreover, if earlier it could only include the assistant and secretary of the head of the National Council and one adviser to a member of the Regulator, now each member of the Regulator can give one representative to the patronage service, and each of them is entitled to a salary.

The powers of the National Council in the new project are further expanded. For example, after the adoption of the law, the Regulator will be able to apply to the owners of public information access platforms (including foreign ones) with a request to restrict access to user information distributed by media that have been sanctioned.

Also, the National Council will have the right to apply to the owners of search engines, including foreign ones, with a request to exclude or block information in search results or catalogs that is subject to sanctions in Ukraine.

What does this mean? The fact that the National Council will demand not only to block objectionable media in Ukraine, but also to close the pages of this media in social networks, such as Facebook, and not to publish its articles or other informational materials in Google, Yahoo, Bing search engines and so on.

As before, in order to demonstrate alleged transparency and lack of censorship for the media, it is proposed to create such a mechanism as general regulation. This is a public union that will be created under the National Council from representatives of licensed media.

The new draft clearly spells out what can become the subject of general regulation. This is the establishment of criteria according to which entities in the field of online media will include persons who distribute online information, but are not registered as media, defining criteria for what information is prohibited to distribute, defining criteria for what information can harm the psyche or moral development of children , as well as broadcasting rules on memorial days.

However, as before, it is up to the National Council to decide on sanctions for the media.

Media blocking capabilities expanded
There are five types of sanctions in total: a fine, cancellation of media registration, cancellation of a license, a ban on online media on the territory of Ukraine, and a ban on a foreign audiovisual media service on the territory of Ukraine.

Of all these types of sanctions, only the fine can be established by the National Council on its own. As for the cancellation of registrations, licenses or media blocking, this will take place on the basis of a court decision.

A whole block has appeared in the bill on how the blocking of online media will be implemented.

For media whose domain name is UA or ROC, the domain name registrar will be required to terminate the registration or maintenance of the domain name. They will also oblige the hosting service provider (if he is a resident of Ukraine) to stop providing these services.

If the media is registered in other domain zones, then the providers will be required to block the resource.

For online media that submit information through information sharing platforms (for example, YouTube), they will require the owner of the platform to restrict access to the pages of this resource.

As in the previous draft law, sanctions for the media depend on three groups of violations: minor, major and gross.

For example, minor violations are a violation of the deadlines for responding to requests from the National Council, a violation of the deadlines for making changes to the register, or non-compliance with the requirements for outgoing data.

Significant violations are the publication of any generally prohibited information. An article about what information is subject to a media ban? almost completely migrated to the new project from the old one.

Among the important innovations, the document introduced a ban on statements that encourage discrimination based on gender identity.



In general, the project was saturated with many ideas of gender equality. Here, as mentioned above, there are requirements for the gender composition of the National Broadcasting Council, and the provision of advantages in appointments to positions in the Regulator to representatives of the sex, whose number was less. 

As before, the bill will introduce direct censorship of the positive mention of the communist leaders of the USSR - from secretaries of district committees and above, as well as Soviet law enforcement agencies. It is forbidden to publish materials that demonstrate the symbols of the communist or national socialist (Nazi) totalitarian regime in order to justify or deny their criminal nature.

A new clause was also introduced to this article - it is prohibited to broadcast statements or materials that humiliate or show disregard for the state language.

Also, significant violations include the dissemination of information that can lead to serious consequences for the psyche of children (by the way, the previous project dealt with adolescents, now there is a division into information for children and adults) or the availability of this information in constant access without using the parental system. control.

And a few more points - this is a violation of the requirements of the law during the election campaign, information support for elections or a referendum, as well as a violation of the procedure for distributing advertising and sponsorship.

But gross violations include the disclosure of information prohibited by a whole separate section of the draft law "Restrictions related to armed aggression."

The same section also almost completely corresponds to the "prohibition" from the previous draft, which concerns the "aggressor state" ("occupier state"), that is, a certain country (it is not directly called), but it is clear that we are talking about Russia . And also in the event of the appearance of "successors" of such an "aggressor state", and them too.

We are talking about three groups of expressly prohibited information.

It:

1. Materials that contain popularization or propaganda of the authorities of the aggressor state, its officials, persons and organizations controlled by the aggressor, and their individual actions that justify or recognize as lawful armed aggression, annexation, occupation of the territory of Ukraine, in particular and public denial these actions.

2. Unreliable materials regarding armed aggression and actions of the aggressor state, if the consequence of this is incitement of enmity or hatred or calls for a violent change of power, overthrow of the constitutional order or violation of the territorial integrity or constitutional order.

3. Programs and materials (except for informational and information-analytical) among the participants of which there are persons included in the List of persons who pose a threat to the national media space.

It should be noted that, according to the new draft, such a List will be drawn up not only by the National Council and the National Security and Defense Council with the Security Service of Ukraine, but also by the Ministry of Culture.

The draft law also states that it is prohibited "exclusively" (this word was not in the previous version of the document) positive coverage of the activities of the aggressor's authorities, "for the purpose of their popularization" (there was no such turnover in the previous draft). 



What does this mean?

First, that one can only criticize life beyond the line of demarcation. It is impossible to broadcast any speeches of Russian officials at all (since they can talk about Russia's achievements). You can not submit different points of view on what is happening in the Donbass, but only "reliable" information, for example, data from the headquarters of the JFO.

Well, the ban on "exclusively" positive coverage of the activities of the authorities of the aggressor state, obviously, means that any positive information from Russia must be seasoned with a fly in the ointment. Otherwise, it is a gross violation of the law. Although in fact this is all direct censorship. After all, such media can be blocked (by a court decision) or at least fined (simply by a decision of the National Council).

By the way, if earlier in the bill the maximum fine for online media was up to five times the minimum wage on the day the violation was committed, now such a fine shines only for minor violations.

Significant ones will cost from five to ten times the minimum wage, and rough ones - up to 15 minimum wages (now the minimum wage is just over 4,700 hryvnia, from September 1 it will increase to 5,000 hryvnia, and from the new year to 6,000 hryvnia). Or, blocking. 



It should be noted that fines for print media, on the contrary, have been reduced. If earlier it was about fines up to 75 minimum wages, now the maximum is also 15 minimum wages. But for the audiovisual media, the fines were left as they were. They can reach a maximum of 75 minsalary.

As before, the legislators entrusted only the district administrative court in Kyiv to make decisions on media blocking. According to the usual procedure - within 30 days. But, as the bill says, "in the event of a real threat to the interests of national security," the court must consider the claim within two days. And the appeal and cassation - within ten days.



Recall that now it is possible to block a site only after cases of violation of the law have been proven in a legal order - for example, criminal cases have been investigated over the content of the site.

It is important that the draft law on media included the responsibility of foreign audiovisual media that will broadcast prohibited information on the territory of Ukraine.

Even during the discussion of the project, the question was raised about the possibility of blocking and imposing a fine on such media, in particular, on the foreign Internet site YouTube. Moreover, top managers of Ukrainian TV channels and people's deputy Nikita Poturaev, now the head of the relevant committee, spoke for this.

However, in the final version of the project, the direct responsibility of such sites is not discussed. The document only says that the National Council can send such media a request to remove the relevant information or restrict access to it on the territory of Ukraine.



The new bill also contains some cosmetic concessions for the media.

For example, a clause appeared that the media should not coordinate their materials with officials of state authorities and local self-government, as well as political parties. Previously, there was no mention of the parties.

At the same time, persons who believe that inaccurate, incomplete or inaccurate information has been made public about them are given the right to demand its refutation or give an answer within 14 days after the release of this information (previously, the period was 30 days).

But this pill is unlikely to sweeten both direct censorship, which, as it was in the previous project, has remained in the new one, and lightning-fast court decisions that will block media that, according to the National Council, have violated some norms of the law.




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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27993821 - 10/11/22 02:17 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

You don't want to be accused of cherry picking information? What a joke lol.

Can you quote a single bit or even just talk about it?

Like provide your own summary or something ey.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #27994649 - 10/12/22 03:40 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

How 'bout no.
I gave you a brief description in a previous post, then translated it because you couldn't be fucked working out how to, then copied it for you.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27996225 - 10/12/22 11:55 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

In regards Ukraine, the media censorship is just another step. It's a pity our shit media don't tell the full story in regards to the Ukrainian leadership, they're not the poor unfortunate's that they're portrayed to be




I literally ask for a related quote to provide context and you say, go find it!

I asked for a quote related to the your brief description, you know, context, citation, support for your claim, because there's a lot of opinions and propaganda flying around.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27996347 - 10/13/22 02:15 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

The accusation is that there are unlimited government powers to censor media in Ukraine, but the stipulation pointed out afterwards is that the national council can only request to remove relevant information within Ukraine from foreign websites such as YouTube.

Quote:

The main one is that the government gave virtually unlimited powers to the National Council for Television and Radio Broadcasting, which will oversee all media in Ukraine (and not just radio and TV, as it is now), including the right to block objectionable online publications.


But in the term "media" (mass media), they added a clarification that this is a means of disseminating mass information in any form, which periodically or regularly comes out under editorial control. Therefore, if we take the same bloggers, no one exercises editorial control over them, which means that they can no longer be classified as ordinary media.


Also, the National Council will have the right to apply to the owners of search engines, including foreign ones, with a request to exclude or block information in search results or catalogs that is subject to sanctions in Ukraine.






It's not cherry picking, it's called reading the article and quoting the relevant points.

Due diligence imo! To have a stance, to see things we agree or disagree with, and to then attempt to support our reasons for thinking so.



Quote:

Media blocking capabilities expanded
There are five types of sanctions in total: a fine, cancellation of media registration, cancellation of a license, a ban on online media on the territory of Ukraine, and a ban on a foreign audiovisual media service on the territory of Ukraine.

Of all these types of sanctions, only the fine can be established by the National Council on its own. As for the cancellation of registrations, licenses or media blocking, this will take place on the basis of a court decision. 





Here's the big one imo, because it talks about how one of the biggest issues or focuses in regard to media regulation is that of 'restrictions related to armed aggression', clarified as Russian aggression. Which means positive coverage of Russian aggression is likely to be prohibited which makes sense to me, I mean if the Taswegians had taken over Victoria by force and changed channel 9 to pro Taswegian propaganda, it certainly wouldn't be in Australia's interest to let it happen, because free speech does have limitations and that is threats of physical violence, or in this case the annexation of a country.

Quote:

But gross violations include the disclosure of information prohibited by a whole separate section of the draft law "Restrictions related to armed aggression."

The same section also almost completely corresponds to the "prohibition" from the previous draft, which concerns the "aggressor state" ("occupier state"), that is, a certain country (it is not directly called), but it is clear that we are talking about Russia . And also in the event of the appearance of "successors" of such an "aggressor state", and them too.

We are talking about three groups of expressly prohibited information.

It:

1. Materials that contain popularization or propaganda of the authorities of the aggressor state, its officials, persons and organizations controlled by the aggressor, and their individual actions that justify or recognize as lawful armed aggression, annexation, occupation of the territory of Ukraine, in particular and public denial these actions.

2. Unreliable materials regarding armed aggression and actions of the aggressor state, if the consequence of this is incitement of enmity or hatred or calls for a violent change of power, overthrow of the constitutional order or violation of the territorial integrity or constitutional order.

3. Programs and materials (except for informational and information-analytical) among the participants of which there are persons included in the List of persons who pose a threat to the national media space.

It should be noted that, according to the new draft, such a List will be drawn up not only by the National Council and the National Security and Defense Council with the Security Service of Ukraine, but also by the Ministry of Culture.

The draft law also states that it is prohibited "exclusively" (this word was not in the previous version of the document) positive coverage of the activities of the aggressor's authorities, "for the purpose of their popularization" (there was no such turnover in the previous draft). 


What does this mean?

First, that one can only criticize life beyond the line of demarcation. It is impossible to broadcast any speeches of Russian officials at all (since they can talk about Russia's achievements). You can not submit different points of view on what is happening in the Donbass, but only "reliable" information, for example, data from the headquarters of the JFO.





Here's another part on some regulatory power being only upon request.
Quote:

Recall that now it is possible to block a site only after cases of violation of the law have been proven in a legal order - for example, criminal cases have been investigated over the content of the site.

It is important that the draft law on media included the responsibility of foreign audiovisual media that will broadcast prohibited information on the territory of Ukraine.

Even during the discussion of the project, the question was raised about the possibility of blocking and imposing a fine on such media, in particular, on the foreign Internet site YouTube. Moreover, top managers of Ukrainian TV channels and people's deputy Nikita Poturaev, now the head of the relevant committee, spoke for this.

However, in the final version of the project, the direct responsibility of such sites is not discussed. The document only says that the National Council can send such media a request to remove the relevant information or restrict access to it on the territory of Ukraine.




Here's a quote that raises my eyebrows and I would like to look further in to because it sounds like a serious allegation and an odd one at that if true. With the if true part emphasised. In regard to what information can bring harm to children.

Quote:

The new draft clearly spells out what can become the subject of general regulation. This is the establishment of criteria according to which entities in the field of online media will include persons who distribute online information, but are not registered as media, defining criteria for what information is prohibited to distribute, defining criteria for what information can harm the psyche or moral development of children , as well as broadcasting rules on memorial days.




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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28001397 - 10/16/22 05:49 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
It's not cherry picking, it's called reading the article and quoting the relevant points.

Due diligence imo! To have a stance, to see things we agree or disagree with, and to then attempt to support our reasons for thinking so.





Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to you when I said I could be accused of cherry picking. If you'd been following the Ukraine thread and the people posting in this thread, you'd understand.

Glad you found the article worth reading  :thumbup:  it has a decent amount of information and needed to be read in total imo.

Ukraine is not the squeaky clean badly done by country it's portrayed as. You may have heard of the government endorsed kill list that Roger Waters is on. The same one that boasted when civilian Daria Dugina was killed.

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/08/25/roger-waters-ukrainian-govt-hit-list/

Quote:

Roger Waters added to Ukrainian govt-sponsored hit list.
Russian political analyst Daria Dugina, who was killed in a car bomb explosion in Moscow on Saturday, now appears as “liquidated” on the Ukrainian online hit list. The site was created under the watch of the Minister of Internal Affairs.




Quote:

Mirotvorets is a database which lists thousands of journalists, activists, and anyone else who is declared an “Enemy of Ukraine.” Their personal information is published, such as the addresses of their homes, their phone numbers and bank account numbers; anything that can help them be easily located. When the people on this list are murdered, like Italian journalist Andrea Rocchelli was, the word ЛИКВИДИРОВАН, “LIQUIDATED,” written in Ukrainian, is stamped across their picture in big red letters.




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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #28001411 - 10/16/22 06:13 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Imo there is a strawman here as no country is squeaky clean and I don't know who would say otherwise, but no country deserves to have its territory annexed at the whim of their neighbours.

Imo, even if Ukraine killed a Russian propagandist, it comes with that person being a threat by pushing further the very real military invasion of their country.

The article just said Ukraine wanted to ban pro Russian propaganda in a time of war..

I'm taken aback why you seem to be sharing a view that frames Ukraine in a negative fashion juxtaposed to it being militarily invaded.

Alas, I still haven't heard or seen anything our glorious leader AnAl has done this year, any heads up?


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #28001431 - 10/16/22 06:45 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

If you'd been following the Ukraine thread you'd probably understand why.

Albanese? Nah of course not, glad I decided against voting Labor.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #28001452 - 10/16/22 07:23 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

I doubt that.

I haven't heard any scandals or changes in parliament yet, but I mean I haven't heard anything and I often listen to different radio stations through the day.

I always thought he was a filler, but I'd like to hear some ideas moving forward other than radio silence. 

Looking it up he wants to save us 12 bucks on rebate prescriptions..

Wow, this article of the Albanese budget legitimately said nothing other than saving 12 bucks for rebate prescriptions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/sep/06/albanese-warns-of-tough-budget-as-coalition-promises-hand-to-hand-combat-over-cost-of-living

And bringing forward tax cuts for high income earners.

Why is it so damn hard to find an article that summarises the October budget.

This is a bloomin sad joke that I can't find any relevant info with 3 different articles, but there is this!

Quote:

The government on Monday released data suggesting a series of defence projects were running behind schedule and $6.5bn over budget, leading to speculation some projects could be cut or delayed in this month’s budget.




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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28001767 - 10/16/22 12:59 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
...no country deserves to have its territory annexed at the whim of their neighbours.



Does any country deserve to have its government couped at the whim of a country on the other side of the globe?  Surely you've seen the leaked Victoria Nuland tapes where she discussed who should be in charge of Ukraine once the coup was complete.



The US didn't even attempt so preserve democracy in Ukraine - it actively supported demonstrations to overthrow the Ukrainian government.

Russia cries foul over Western embrace of Ukraine's demonstrators

And Russia didn't even want to annex any new territory.  They wanted Ukraine to recognize the 2014 borders as voted on by the people of Ukraine who chose not to live under a US puppet government.


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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28001834 - 10/16/22 02:08 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

When I try and talk to people who are anti Putin/anti Russia the same argument is put forward every time "but who invaded?"

Followed by, they aren't interested in understanding what happened before February 2022.

But I guess when you have the media constantly parroting the "unprovoked invasion", offering zero context, and a one sided story, it's no wonder.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #28001934 - 10/16/22 03:20 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

The US does have a history of meddling in the internal affairs of other countries like Ukraine through fiscal policies. To stretch beyond this with extraordinary claims, you require extraordinary evidence. 

Civil unrest became apparent during the term of Yanukovych when the Maidan Revolution took place and he was removed from office after ordering the murder of dozens of protestors.

You're asserting the US was involved in a coup with this as your only point of reference.

Quote:

She and the ambassador also discussed which members of Ukraine's opposition might be best to have in the government, and which should not be included.




Imo it's a big unfounded jump to say the US is responsible for the chaos of the Maiden revolution, and to therefore conclude Russia is in the green light to militarily invade a sovereign country.

You don't have proof that the US couped Ukraine in 2014. Russia sent military forces in to, and provided military aid to the Donbas region during the process of annexing it.

In no uncertain terms, you haven't denied that you think Ukraine deserves to be militarily invaded.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #28002060 - 10/16/22 04:44 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
The US does have a history of meddling in the internal affairs of other countries like Ukraine through fiscal policies. To stretch beyond this with extraordinary claims, you require extraordinary evidence. 

Civil unrest became apparent during the term of Yanukovych when the Maidan Revolution took place and he was removed from office after ordering the murder of dozens of protestors.



As you just said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  On the one hand, we have Nuland definitively saying which members of Ukraine's opposition would be best to have in the government, and which should not be included, instead of discussing how to prevent an illegal coup from happening in the first place in a supposedly democratic country.  On the other hand, we have a highly contested claim with no evidence about who was responsible for the killings other than a statement from the opposition party, parroted by the West.

Quote:

sudly said:
Imo it's a big unfounded jump to say the US is responsible for the chaos of the Maiden revolution



We could have at least tried to stop it from happening, but we clearly fanned the flames.  Why?  Because when deciding whether to purchase energy from Russia or the West, Yanukovych chose the cheaper option as being better for his people (Russian energy).  The US was furious and then encouraged his ouster.

The people of Crimea and Donbas didn't want to live under an unelected puppet government of the West and voted to separate from Ukraine, as they believed in democracy.

After numerous debates on this board about whether the Crimean people really supported Russia or not, I traveled to Crimea myself and spoke with ~40-50 people and became convinced beyond a doubt the people there overwhelmingly supported Russia.  Many even said if Ukraine ever tried to take Crimea back, they would fight to keep Crimea out of Ukraine's hands.

Quote:

sudly said:
Russia sent military forces in to, and provided military aid to the Donbas region during the process of annexing it.



They provided military aid to keep the peace during the referendums, which had a HUGE turnout according to the locals there, with no visible military presence whatsoever.  Do you remember what happened in Odessa to prevent a similar referendum?

Quote:

sudly said:
In no uncertain terms, you haven't denied that you think Ukraine deserves to be militarily invaded.



Crimea and Donbas were already separated from Ukraine since 2014, and Donbas was begging for Russia's help for what many believed to be an upcoming Ukrainian invasion (which Poroshenko himself confirmed he was planning to do).


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/16/22 04:51 PM)


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Offline336
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius]
    #28002104 - 10/16/22 05:16 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

I have a question for the Aussies. Would you prefer to live in Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii, or somewhere else in the Pacific and why?


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: 336]
    #28002181 - 10/16/22 06:15 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Hawaii seems isolated, but I'm good in Australia. Healthcare is a plus and it's generally safe here. Not a fan of pollies who are scared of THC but will bum down a carton and ciggies though.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #28002259 - 10/16/22 07:10 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

It's a few minutes with talk of who they think a good leader would be. You can't reasonably extrapolate coup from that. You can postulate as evident.

Yanukovych's last minute decision to walk away from the EU deal by citing pressure from Russia for his decision after a year of touting it is what brought protesters to the streets.

Violence swelled on the Maiden after a new law was put in place banning all public protests.

Russia gave separatists weapons..
Since you've bought in to the idea of an unmonitored referendum of pro-Russian separatists after anaxxing a country, I have a bridge to sell you.

To me you've just said the annexed places were already annexed and you still haven't said you don't think Ukraine deserves to be militarily invaded.

Why don't we bring this into the Ukraine forum. Lest we start a North Korea forum and praise their Phantom Hotel.

(I'll respond there from now on)


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: sudly]
    #28002450 - 10/16/22 10:16 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Why don't we bring this into the Ukraine forum. Lest we start a North Korea forum and praise their Phantom Hotel.

(I'll respond there from now on)




That's a good idea, just remember you're about 600 pages late to the party. You'll see Falcon has a lot more patience than most people commenting in that thread.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #28004409 - 10/18/22 09:16 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)



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