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InvisibleAsante
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Over six million dead!
    #27990858 - 10/09/22 07:47 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Over six million dead!
1 million of which, Americans in America.

Covid Shmovid, most people are barely if at all impressed by this.

You can say "people take iot well" but instead, people on the whole barely give a fuck about 6 million less people on the world.

Has MASS DEATH become no biggie as long as you yourself are not affected?

Isaac Asimov once argued that with population increase inevitabl;y comes a decrease in the perception of the value of a human life.

People so easily say "we got opverpopulation anyway"

some of our humanity was lost between the 2996 dead of september eleven, that we will never forget, and the 6.532.705 covid dead we will never remember.

If the media puppeteers play the heartstrings the people cry their eyes out, and if the administrationm bumbles its way through a pandemic causing 600,000 excess american deaths, 200x more, people dont give a hoot.'10x the US body count of the vietnam war.

What happened to giving a fuck?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Over six million dead! [Re: Asante] * 1
    #27991043 - 10/09/22 09:45 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

There is a difference between dying from a disease and being murdered, though. 3000 murdered is horrific.  6 million dying from a disease isn't even close to the amount who die of heart disease.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Over six million dead! [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #27991428 - 10/10/22 07:02 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Friedrich Engels coined the term ‘social murder’ in 1845, writing about the English working class, to highlight the flawed distinction between unnatural deaths, based on how these deaths took place.

Quote:

When one individual inflicts bodily injury upon another such that death results, we call the deed manslaughter; when the assailant knew in advance that the injury would be fatal, we call his deed murder. But when society places hundreds of proletarians in such a position that they inevitably meet a too early and an unnatural death, one which is quite as much a death by violence as that by the sword or bullet; when it deprives thousands of the necessaries of life, places them under conditions in which they cannot live – forces them, through the strong arm of the law, to remain in such conditions until that death ensues which is the inevitable consequence – knows that these thousands of victims must perish, and yet permits these conditions to remain, its deed is murder just as surely as the deed of the single individual; disguised, malicious murder, murder against which none can defend himself, which does not seem what it is, because no man sees the murderer, because the death of the victim seems a natural one, since the offence is more one of omission than of commission. But murder it remains.






tl;dr: forcing the working class into the cattle cars of the service industry during the pandemic because the ruling class can’t be bothered to bear a short term decrease in profits is still murder.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Over six million dead! [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27991712 - 10/10/22 10:46 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

There has to be an arbitrary line drawn somewhere. Everything is influenced by everything. Do we charge the entire social network of a criminal for the actions they took that may have precipitated the crime?

On the other hand, to continue using Asimov as an example, this does allow the Nestor-10 loophole, admirably adapted by Engels, in which a society intentionally sets up lethal conditions for a segment of the population, knowing they will be held blameless as long as they do not push the final button.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Over six million dead! [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27992211 - 10/10/22 03:14 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

I mean, feasibly? No. But words matter and they affect how we approach social issues.

It’s easy for us to condemn a murderer when we see video of him shooting a guy, but we don’t think in those terms when a group of senators commit to a “welfare reform” bill that the CBO tells them will result in tens of thousands of deaths. That’s premeditated murder on a massive scale, we just don’t think about it that way.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Over six million dead! [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27993193 - 10/11/22 06:06 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

I think alot of it stems from consent. Those senators were empowered to make those choices, by a large segment of society. A carjacking/ murder does not have the same background, or consent of the society for thier horrific actions.

Also, welfare reform could amount to death for some, but it is not as immediately lethal like a .357 to the head, nor can it be clearly attributed to legislative actions, like a bullet.


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Over six million dead! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #27994041 - 10/11/22 05:04 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I mean, feasibly? No. But words matter and they affect how we approach social issues.

It’s easy for us to condemn a murderer when we see video of him shooting a guy, but we don’t think in those terms when a group of senators commit to a “welfare reform” bill that the CBO tells them will result in tens of thousands of deaths. That’s premeditated murder on a massive scale, we just don’t think about it that way.




Technically, no. Murder is defined as an unlawful killing. Senators changing the laws in a way that causes deaths is, by definition, lawful killing. Therefore, murder doesn't really apply.

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I think alot of it stems from consent. Those senators were empowered to make those choices, by a large segment of society. A carjacking/ murder does not have the same background, or consent of the society for thier horrific actions.

Also, welfare reform could amount to death for some, but it is not as immediately lethal like a .357 to the head, nor can it be clearly attributed to legislative actions, like a bullet.




This consent concept seems most relevant. We have, as a society, elevated Senators to the point where they make those decisions. This might be more akin to a self defense situation, in which a criminal essentially "consents" to their (lawful) killing/maiming by choosing to commit that crime.

But the reality is that when welfare reform that results in deaths is instituted, the deaths fall disproportionately among people that voted against the guy. So consent is also not a perfect analogy.

I don't think the lethality argument stands even a little bit. The abused housewife that slowly poisons her husband over several years is still charged with murder, even though the process might have taken longer than deaths due to poverty. Similarly, a .357 to the head is not itself lethal, the permanent lack of consciousness is lethal. The bullet only starts a chain of physical events that end in a permanent lack of consciousness. The chain of events is much more rapid than the chain of events that causes death due to welfare reform, sure, but bullets, like welfare reform, are not inherently lethal. They must be properly applied for full effect. Much like welfare reform.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Over six million dead! [Re: Kryptos]
    #27994140 - 10/11/22 06:02 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Your stating that you could determine death as a result of welfare reform more easily than poisoning and/or a gunshot wound?

One is a  action against another, both in proximity and physical contact.

The other, arbitrary laws that are not physical nor even close in proximity. To determine that one has died from a law or reform would be much, much more difficult to prove. In fact, I have researched welfare reform as a cause of death, and come up nil. Do you have link that shows welfare reform as a cause of death?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (10/11/22 06:17 PM)

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Over six million dead! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #27994183 - 10/11/22 06:22 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

I found this:

Half a percent?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-welfare-limits/welfare-limits-tied-to-more-deaths-over-time-study-idUSBRE95D0YO20130614


Of the 1,611 people who were pressured to get jobs, 75 of them (4.7 percent) died by 2011. That compared to 67 deaths (4.2 percent) among the 1,613 people who received traditional welfare.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Over six million dead! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #27995016 - 10/12/22 10:43 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

No, I'm not saying that it is easier to determine cause of death from welfare reform than cause of death by bullet. I think it is actually much harder, because there is a large group of people who are heavily invested in the idea that welfare is inherently evil.

To continue to use guns as an example, I think a more apt comparison would be the connection between gun ownership and likelihood of being a victim of gun violence. There is very limited direct evidence that owning a gun is a significant threat to the health and safety of the gun owner, partly because studying that was effectively illegal for some time. However, there is a LOT of circumstantial evidence that links guns to violence. As a general rule, the more guns there are in a population, the more gun violence there is in a population.

Similarly, we see that when welfare is expanded, metrics like child poverty, nutritional instability, and educational attainment improve. When welfare is curtailed, all of those metrics get worse. Those metrics are also linked to early deaths.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spending-health/study-finds-welfare-cuts-can-cost-lives-idUSTRE65N6PS20100624

But again, there is a strong political incentive to ignore the fact that cutting welfare leads to poverty, and poverty leads to deaths of despair, because it is a very inconvenient correlation for the kind of politician that believes austerity fixes everything while simultaneously wishing to get votes.

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Over six million dead! [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27998020 - 10/14/22 04:27 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I mean, feasibly? No. But words matter and they affect how we approach social issues.

It’s easy for us to condemn a murderer when we see video of him shooting a guy, but we don’t think in those terms when a group of senators commit to a “welfare reform” bill that the CBO tells them will result in tens of thousands of deaths. That’s premeditated murder on a massive scale, we just don’t think about it that way.




Yeah we can't put body cams on Senators. IDK if a bill results in tens of thousands of deaths or not, but it results in that number or more of bad lives made worse, and misery that goes on for generations. Impossible to count but deaths and lives worse than death keep accumulating.

Back to Assante's point, Desantis' replacement for whatever is Florida's equivalent of Surgeon General just told younger males not to get vaccinated. The only reason we aren't putting witches in charge of medicine is that they're not Christians. No offense against actual Wiccans, who tend to be humanists.


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I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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