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Offlinecroyleje
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Registered: 08/22/22
Posts: 122
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
Question about Generational degradation and Properly Counting Generations?
    #27984966 - 10/06/22 04:39 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Hello Everyone,  I have read multiple papers and been told multiple times that after multiple generations mushroom genetics, vigor/colonization time and fruiting can all be negatively impacted.  My question is why? Is there an agreed upon generational cycle/age it is recommended not to exceed?  And finally at what point should it be considered a new generation?  Below is an example of what I think is correct and what I have been using for my notes.

Spores to agar - Gen 1
Agar to grain - Still Gen 1
That colonized grain transferred grain - Gen 2
That colonized grain to substrate - Fruited Gen 1
Original agar isolate to agar - Gen 2 (MOST QUESTIONABLE)
Clone of fruit - Gen 2
Spores from fruit - New Gen 1

This is an example of my basic workflow.  I originally found one strain I had excellent success with and was fast to colonize and I wanted to work with this strain to try and teach myself mushroom genetics and breeding.  I wanted to have a baseline I could compare my outcomes to but found after multiple grain to grain transfers it appears that original strain colonization time slowed and fruiting was also effected.  It was at this point I became aware of the generational decay and was amazed at how fast it occurred (5-6 generations grain to grain).

If my overview is close to correct what is so difference from grain to grain transfers and agar isolates?  Are they both not technically the same "age"?  Both are new growth.  Or is a matter of the growth media?  Is this the reason it is recommend to switch up your agar from time to time?

Or am I just an idiot still, chasing the wrong question?

Again sorry if I am using the wrong term in the wrong place.  Please let me know if I am it is the only way I will learn.


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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Question about Generational degradation and Properly Counting Generations? [Re: croyleje] * 1
    #27984999 - 10/06/22 05:05 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

when spores germinate, cells begin to divide. they can only divide so many times. when you move mycelium from one agar plate to another you arent starting a "new generation" youre just giving it more room to expand

theres no telling how far a particular culture can expand just like no one knows how long they will live. the whole point of slants, immortal cell lines, whatever, is grabbing a culture when its still a baby and keeping it that way, so when you grab some of its cells they still have a lifetime of divisions to go


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Offlinecroyleje
I'm a teapot

Registered: 08/22/22
Posts: 122
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
Re: Question about Generational degradation and Properly Counting Generations? [Re: bakedbeings]
    #27985132 - 10/06/22 06:11 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Ok that makes the slants make more sense then thank you for the clarifying that.


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Learn Linux and cut your ties to big tech, remember if a service is provided to you for free you and your data are the payment.
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OfflineMuad.Dweeb
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Registered: 04/13/17
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Re: Question about Generational degradation and Properly Counting Generations? [Re: croyleje] * 1
    #27989825 - 10/09/22 09:44 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Generations are measured from the time spores germinate and pair up, to the time they fruit and make more spores. The new spores start the new generation.

You don't really have to worry about degradation, per se (genetic drift, senescence, etc...), but cultures can tank from bacteria, competing molds, chemical and environmental damage, and other preventable scenarios. There are cultures that have been transferred well over 1000 times and still perform well.

As far as keeping track of transfers and such, we generally use the "T" label, i.e. the first transfers from a germination or clone plate are T1, transfers from the T1's are labeled T2, etc...

Hope that helps!


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A beginning is the time for taking the most delicate care that the balances are correct. This every sister of the Bene Gesserit knows.



How to Breed like the Bene Gesserit
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Offlinecroyleje
I'm a teapot


Registered: 08/22/22
Posts: 122
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
Re: Question about Generational degradation and Properly Counting Generations? [Re: Muad.Dweeb]
    #27990021 - 10/09/22 11:29 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Thank you for explaining this to me, it is simple stuff like this that I find one of the hardest things to find correct answers to and if you don't mind me asking a question or two more to clarify.

Assuming no contamination it is acceptable to keep transferring mycelium over and over, say from one grain to grain or from agar to agar with out worry of degradation?

Does mycelium need to be allowed to grow out from time to time.  Meaning would it better off to transfer from my slants to new slants or should I grow out that slant and take new cultures from those fruits?


--------------------
Learn Linux and cut your ties to big tech, remember if a service is provided to you for free you and your data are the payment.
https://www.fsf.org/


Edited by croyleje (10/09/22 11:30 AM)


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