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OfflineGermanShaman
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Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms
    #27982461 - 10/05/22 08:45 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Has anyone tried this method to preserve their stocks?  Just wondering if it is better than just air drying and then Cracker drying .

Of course you need a vacuum chamber and a freezer to do this. I'm looking into building a vacuum chamber for this purpose.

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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: GermanShaman] * 1
    #27982474 - 10/05/22 08:56 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

If you do a search you'll find where this has been discussed many times.  Here's one.

Also, air drying and THEN cracker drying is not a good idea.  Air drying is never a good idea, using a dehydrator is best.


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InvisibleIcyurmt
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: Forrester]
    #27990304 - 10/09/22 02:29 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Also, air drying and THEN cracker drying is not a good idea.  Air drying is never a good idea, using a dehydrator is best.




I believe air drying is a standard practice most often used in studies afaik.

"All basidiocarps were dried at room temperature. Possible present residual water was removed from the mushrooms by freeze-drying." Form "Extraction and analysis of indole derivatives from fungal biomass"
Jochen Gartz

These three papers also claim that total tryptamine content in fungal biomass is not reduced by drying in the dark at room temperature. Do you know of any other studies that have been done directly comparing the various drying techniques or any that may contradict these?

"Occurrence and use of hallucinogenic mushrooms containing psilocybin alkaloids"

"Analysis of psychotropic compounds in fungi of the genius psilocybe by reversed-phase high-performance liquid chromatography"

"Stability of psilocybin and its four analogs in the biomass of the psychotropic mushroom Psilocybe cubensis"


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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: Icyurmt]
    #27991261 - 10/10/22 02:11 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Those studies are fraught with errors and inconsistencies, we know that dehydrator drying is best.

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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #27991915 - 10/10/22 12:44 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DERRAYLD said:
Those studies are fraught with errors and inconsistencies, we know that dehydrator drying is best.




:whathesaid:


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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: Forrester]
    #27991947 - 10/10/22 01:06 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

"All basidiocarps were dried at room temperature. Possible present residual water was removed from the mushrooms by freeze-drying." Form "Extraction and analysis of indole derivatives from fungal biomass"
Jochen Gartz




if all samples were dried the same way, this couldnt be a comparison of drying methods, could it?

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InvisibleIcyurmt
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #28000595 - 10/15/22 04:15 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DERRAYLD said:
Those studies are fraught with errors and inconsistencies, we know that dehydrator drying is best.




Ok, so I'm asking how do you know that?

I find it very hard to believe all 4 of those papers are wrong about air drying, especially without seeing other published works contradicting the findings.


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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: Icyurmt]
    #28000640 - 10/15/22 04:56 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

idk why you keep citing those papers when none them compared drying methods

why are you demanding published studies? just put some fruits in a dehydrator and some fruits in front of a fan. in 24 hours check which are drier. its not that deep

:rollsafe:

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InvisibleIcyurmt
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: bakedbeings]
    #28000941 - 10/15/22 08:21 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bakedbeings said:
idk why you keep citing those papers when none them compared drying methods

why are you demanding published studies? just put some fruits in a dehydrator and some fruits in front of a fan. in 24 hours check which are drier. its not that deep

:rollsafe:




Because they found no loss in tryptamine content with air dried vs fresh. No loss is no loss, they dont have to compare drying methods to test that.. Has the same ever been shown for heat dehydrated?

Part of what appears to be happening during the drying process is an enzymatic reconversion of some of the freed psilocin into more stable psilocybin. The original comment I was responding to claimed that air drying regardless of if subsequent drying was done afterwards to dry further than ambient humidity levels was never a good idea and that a heated dehydrator is always better. They even linked to a discussion of one of the papers I cited that everyone now wants to discredit. I would just like to know where that's coming from? Is it just based solely off of subjective experiences alone without any testing?

This is the advanced mycology section no? Are you really saying to disregard the published science and trust our untested subjective experience? :skeptical:


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Edited by Icyurmt (10/15/22 08:30 PM)

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: Icyurmt]
    #28001127 - 10/15/22 09:56 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

no one tried to discredit that paper and no one said there would be loss of potency during air drying. can you please just slow down and read the following carefully:

you, the last study you cited, and everyone on shroomery agrees that the ideal way to store mushrooms is dry

please only move on once youve processed that information

now, let us compare two methods of drying mushrooms, namely 1) dehydrating and 2) air drying followed by freeze drying, with the knowledge that without user error both methods will dry mushrooms completely

one method is faster and requires simpler technology. one method is slower and requires more complex technology

from those two options, we pick the former

Edited by bakedbeings (10/15/22 10:34 PM)

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InvisibleIcyurmt
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: bakedbeings]
    #28001166 - 10/15/22 10:32 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

one method is faster and requires simpler technology. one method is slower and requires more complex technology




Is that really the only difference between them or is that just an assumption? Yes, both methods dry that's obvious and no one was questioning that or that cracker dry is the best storage method. My reading comprehension is quite good but perhaps yours could use some work. Quoted from my first comment "Do you know of any other studies that have been done directly comparing the various drying techniques or any that may contradict these?" My question is given that there is some evidence of enzymatic reconversion happening during the drying process how are you sure that there is no loss occurring via heat drying?


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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: Icyurmt]
    #28001194 - 10/15/22 11:03 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

how are you sure that there is no loss occurring via heat drying?



because its established that actives are stable well above 400F, and people on this site have cooked shrooms at very high temperatures and perceived no loss in potency

Quote:

This is the advanced mycology section no? Are you really saying to disregard my feelings and trust scientific consensus?



    yes

:solidnod:

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OfflineRusty2096
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: GermanShaman]
    #28001195 - 10/15/22 11:04 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Loss of what? Psylocin/cybin do not degrade at 170f (standard dehydrator max heat). As for other triptamines, I don't know but I know this from experience : fresh mushrooms are slightly more potent than dryed one. Maybe because other less know (also less studied) triptamines contained in most active shrooms do degrade with heat? Or simply evaporate with the water? Or from oxidation? :shrug:


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InvisibleIcyurmt
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: Rusty2096]
    #28001225 - 10/15/22 11:43 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

because its established that actives are stable well above 400F, and people on this site have cooked shrooms at very high temperatures and perceived no loss in potency




The 400f is for the isolated molecule devoid of water and the naturally occurring enzymes. Pinch a fresh mushroom and you can watch the active tryptamines break down at room temperature via PsiP and PsiL enzymes. And no loss in perceived potency (compare with what?) is not the same as no loss. If subjective experiences were so trustworthy, testing and the scientific method would never be necessary.

Quote:

This is the advanced mycology section no? Are you really saying to disregard my feelings and trust scientific consensus? Yes




The scientific consensus is in those studies not untested subjective experiences.

Quote:

fresh mushrooms are slightly more potent than dryed one. Maybe because other less know (also less studied) triptamines contained in most active shrooms do degrade with heat?




Air dried mushrooms actually have higher concentrations of psilocybin, baeocystin, norbaeocystin, and aeruginascin compared with fresh according to the study above. A possible explanation for why the experience still feels subjectively weaker with dried is the ~30% decrease in free psilocin. It appears that during drying that freed psilocin is not actually being lost, but rather converted back into more stable psilocybin by the PsiK enzymes and likely forming some of those other actives as well. This is partially the basis of my question; does heat drying interfere with this process, or does it interfere with the other enzymes causing any losses?


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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms *DELETED* [Re: Rusty2096] * 1
    #28001241 - 10/16/22 12:05 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)


Quote:

during drying that freed psilocin is not actually being lost, but rather converted back into more stable psilocybin by the PsiK enzymes and likely forming some of those other actives as well. This is partially the basis of my question; does heat drying interfere with this process, or does it interfere with the other enzymes causing any losses?




do you have any evidence that it does? because so far i see fuck all. when we are talking about a group of chemicals that are stable well beyond 400F+, the burden is on YOU to prove that dehydrating at 170F lowers potency, and you havent done that

edit/aside - regarding DERRAYLDs comment about most shroom studies being trash, this study you keep citing was done using a grand fucking total of like 15 fruits, and there was "high variability" between them. thats the kind of sloppy bullshit he was talking about

Edited by bakedbeings (10/16/22 01:19 PM)

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Freeze Drying to preserve Shrooms [Re: bakedbeings] * 1
    #28001245 - 10/16/22 12:08 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

im not a chemist, im really not the person who should be here fighting it out in the advanced forum. im really hoping smarter people can come shed some light on all of this

but i do know this: increasing the heat will speed up enzymatic reactions up to a certain threshold after which the enzymes begin to denature. with this in mind there are a few possible outcomes of heat drying:

1- the gradual heating of the fruit speeds up the enzymatic activity in such a way that the reaction is complete before the enzymes denature

2- the enzymes denature before the reaction is complete but it doesnt matter because enzymes dont change the direction of a reaction - they just lower its activation energy - so the heat itself facilitates the reaction without the help of enzymes

3- im misunderstanding something important and it turns out Yes the heat inhibits the reaction in some way and the fruits retain a lot of psilocin. this seems like a good thing. you would be getting a direct hit of psilocin, as with fresh fruits

in none of these scenarios does dehydrating at 170F lower potency and i cant conceive of one in which it does

anyway i hope someone more credentialed can bring us some clarity, tell me if i got close at least. its a shame the dumbest threads go right to the advanced forum but cest la vie

Edited by bakedbeings (10/16/22 01:28 PM)

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