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B Traven
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Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread 8
#27964240 - 09/23/22 12:09 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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We live in a time and place where almost every aspect of our lives is unsustainable.
In this context, the cultivation of psilocybes represents a small drop in the bucket when it comes to our impact on the planet.
Nonetheless, the sustainability of our cultivation practices has been on my mind a lot lately. For me, that comes down to several things:
1. Part of the reason I grow is to help people heal their psychic wounds and shake off the rabbit-brain thinking that allows them to prioritize everything except our impact on global ecology, and our inability to continue down this road indefinitely. Although the impact of my grows is pretty minor compared to what I eat for breakfast or a thousand other aspects of my daily life, there is a symbolic component to finding ways to limit it.
2. Psilocybes are poised to be re-legalized and rolled out as a viable alternative to various psychiatric drugs. The emphasis for most growers is likely to shift away from the considerations of the underground hobbyist, and towards production techniques with reproducible results (shroomery is clearly already on that path). As that happens, it would be great to see a scene that addresses the environmental impact of expansion, and does what it can to develop an alternative example of what truly sustainable agriculture might look like.
3. I hope to move on eventually- into the production of edible species, alternative sources of fuel and construction materials, other medicinal species, etc. I believe microbiology will form a major cornerstone of any future systems that help us not drown in our own shit. But I'd also like to learn and develop techniques which will work indefinitely, and have the smallest possible environmental impact. As it stands now, I'd be dead in the water without natural gas and modern plastics, among other things.
So, these thoughts keep emerging as I read various threads. All too often, discussions pf this nature devolve into moralizing, finger-pointing, and accusations of pie-in-the-sky idealism and hypocrisy. After all, we're trained as consumers to believe that these issues aren't structural, and that it's all down to a few choice decisions at the grocery store. And it's not really appropriate, for instance, for me to blurt out something about the carbon footprint of Uncle Ben TEK when trying to convince someone that their current path leads to trich and disappointment. It's both off-topic and unlikely to win anyone over.
So, I'm starting this thread as a place to discuss this stuff. From the impact of various decisions, to personal anecdotes about our thoughts and experiences, to speculation about how one could truly close the loop. It would be cool if we could have a dispassionate discussion here, centered on information and possibilities, and hopefully avoid the usual pitfalls that arise when one brings this sort of thing up. We're all ants in the grand scheme of things. But I'm just following through on a thread idea here. It'll go wherever it wants.
More to follow, just wanted to get this basic intro sorted and posted.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
Edited by B Traven (09/23/22 12:50 PM)
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B Traven
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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: B Traven]
#27964272 - 09/23/22 12:32 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Just a few thoughts on what sustainability means as I understand it, and how it might pertain to us:
First of all, sustainability can mean different things to different people. And discussion of sustainability is often adjacent to a number of other things. For the moment, I'm narrowing it down to the most dispassionate version I can muster: the ability to maintain a given practice indefinitely, without running up against its own constraints or consequences.
With all the talk of environmental destruction and global warming, it's easy to lose sight of one more basic and fundamental reality: humanity in its current form will run out of energy. Fossil fuels are a finite source. Nobody has developed anything on a large enough scale to replace them. Every major alternative energy source still relies on fossil fuels for construction, maintenance, and/or delivery. Closing the energy cycle to rely strictly on the solar or geothermal energy available in the present, and not just burning through the stores of carbon fixation from the carboniferous, is the basic prerequisite for anything to be sustainable over the long-term. Ultimately, basic materials also cost energy to produce. So this also applies to the use of plastics, metals, etc.
While our global production and transport system has made things cheap and convenient for a lot of people, it's ultimately a massive waste of energy. Until the world switches to human porters loading stuff onto solar-powered barges, locally sourced materials seem to be the only viable option for long-term sustainability. Additionally, we all know that there are various forms of economic exploitation and exported externalities built into this system. Ignoring any political or moral angles here, the reality is that this creates an inherently unstable situation. Eventually, there will be unrest and economic development in the source countries, and that will have an impact on the global supply chain. The pandemic also revealed how seemingly unrelated global crises can quickly impact our ability to receive various goods, or trigger inflation that changes the viability of a given practice.
Local sourcing means nothing if we're just treating the land and people like shit right here at home. There ultimately still needs to be a closed nutrient cycle and relatively equitable economic arrangement, or whatever we're doing will eventually collapse.
At the end of the day, I know we'll all be dead before we get anywhere near a lifestyle that adequately addresses even half of these points. But I guess these are the invisible goals that I'm starting to think more about in my daily grind, with an eye towards replacing my current practices with something more constructive in this realm. I am still very much stuck in daily expediency mode when it comes to most cultivation decisions, and likely to remain there for a while.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
Edited by B Traven (09/23/22 12:52 PM)
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natedawgnow
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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: B Traven] 2
#27964279 - 09/23/22 12:35 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Good thread idea. Definitely a lot of waste in this hobby/field for those of us who are trying to make it with edibles or what have you.
While there's a lot of waste there are also things you can do to mitigate portions of it. First and foremost is a compost bin for old subs. I just put 4 4x8ft pallets tied together in a square and thats the bin.
Works great for garden amendments once it's all composted and it can even open up other avenues for income as I've had people try to buy my mushroom compost on a few occasions.
You can stick with glass vs. using bags although thats not feasible for us edible growers. They do make biodegradeable bags now but I honestly dont know how well they work as I've been afraid to pull the trigger on some cause if they pinhole easy that's a lot of income down the drain.
One thing you can do also is run your grow room on solar. A relatively cheap set up can power a couple leds, a fan, and a humidifier unless you use a big pond fogger. Could also do water pressure misters instead of a fogger which wouldnt require any electricity except for the timer and a small pump. My grow room is entirely solar powered
Unfortunately my impact is still an issue cause i use propane for a lot of shit and my hood is run on a generator. Nothing really I can do about that as my solar system is way to small to power the fan motor for any length of time.
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B Traven
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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: B Traven]
#27964290 - 09/23/22 12:44 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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3 of 3, then I'll let this thread lie for a bit and see if it accrues any responses.
Quickest and most obvious example of something I think about:
Coir.
I live and die by it.
It's the most forgiving of substrates. It comes in pre-weighed bricks. I have my formula for water content perfectly dialed in. Spawning, at this point, is something I could train a robot to do.
And, overall, my conscience can handle it. Coir is a waste product from coconut plantations. My coir dollars certainly aren't the deciding factor as to whether people plant more coconuts. And it's mostly just generated by natural growth processes, and vastly preferable to a mined product like peat. When I'm done with my cakes, they get composted and mixed back into the soil. So the direct carbon footprint is relatively minor.
Indirectly, it's atrocious. Coconut plantations typically replace tropical forests, which are much greater carbon sinks. Labor conditions are probably not very good. Chemical fertilizer and pesticide use is likely rampant, affecting both the immediate environment and the global carbon budget. It gets shipped halfway around the world, and then I drive to go pick it up. The bricks I get are shrink-wrapped in plastic, of course. And I'm still too paranoid to just use tap water, so of course I'm burning a bit of natural gas to bring it to a boil.
I saw a thread recently about using straw as substrate. Even locally sourced straw from a farm store would be a vast improvement, but I'm afraid to make the leap to pasteurization. Super long-term, I'd like to grow or scavenge my own substrate right here in my own neighborhood. I don't think I'm allowed to keep cattle in my city, not sure about goats. But I'm open to so many other possibilities- leaf litter, my own small patch of straw-producing crops etc.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
Edited by B Traven (09/23/22 12:47 PM)
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B Traven
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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: natedawgnow]
#27964293 - 09/23/22 12:46 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
natedawgnow said: Good thread idea. Definitely a lot of waste in this hobby/field for those of us who are trying to make it with edibles or what have you.
While there's a lot of waste there are also things you can do to mitigate portions of it. First and foremost is a compost bin for old subs. I just put 4 4x8ft pallets tied together in a square and thats the bin.
Works great for garden amendments once it's all composted and it can even open up other avenues for income as I've had people try to buy my mushroom compost on a few occasions.
You can stick with glass vs. using bags although thats not feasible for us edible growers. They do make biodegradeable bags now but I honestly dont know how well they work as I've been afraid to pull the trigger on some cause if they pinhole easy that's a lot of income down the drain.
One thing you can do also is run your grow room on solar. A relatively cheap set up can power a couple leds, a fan, and a humidifier unless you use a big pond fogger. Could also do water pressure misters instead of a fogger which wouldnt require any electricity except for the timer and a small pump. My grow room is entirely solar powered
Unfortunately my impact is still an issue cause i use propane for a lot of shit and my hood is run on a generator. Nothing really I can do about that as my solar system is way to small to power the fan motor for any length of time.
Nice, thanks for chiming in! Yeah, the bag thing when it comes to edibles is something I think about a lot. I wonder if there are any developments on the horizon in that regard. I have yet to see a biologically sourced "plastic" of any kind that really passed muster.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
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LotKid
Never.Trust.A.Prankster



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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: B Traven] 2
#27964306 - 09/23/22 12:55 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Finally! An unoffical thread... breath of fresh air...
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SymPlayTon
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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: LotKid] 1
#27964316 - 09/23/22 01:09 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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This is something have been thinking about as well. Using material that is easy to grow at my location.
Some ideas I have.
Black eye peas. I will test at the end of the season. It is easy to turn a handful into a gallon. Might be able to replace BRF in PF TEK. Might be able to replace WBS. The pod husk Might be usable like coir.
Okra. Easy to grow, drought resistant, when overgrown and dried becomes "woody". Has seeds. Might be able to use the seeds to replace WBS. The woddy husks might be shredable/crushable to serve as a substrate.
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LotKid
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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: SymPlayTon] 1
#27964327 - 09/23/22 01:15 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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I have almost a whole box of the biodegradeable spawn bags. They kept splitting open in the sterilizers and spilling grain. I contacted the supplier about it. They offered to send me another box and i asked for the regular bags. I was scared of wasting more grain and energy.
I've thought about slipping a few in the mix here and there again.
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Tweeq
Tweeq of Nature


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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: LotKid] 3
#27964339 - 09/23/22 01:22 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Well, out with those energy slurping hoods then lol. Re enter the 'Sustainable Air Box'.
Fun thread idea. I bet there's tons of things members do to be less wasteful that we know nothing about.
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: SymPlayTon] 1
#27964345 - 09/23/22 01:24 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SymPlayTon said: This is something have been thinking about as well. Using material that is easy to grow at my location.
Some ideas I have.
Black eye peas. I will test at the end of the season. It is easy to turn a handful into a gallon. Might be able to replace BRF in PF TEK. Might be able to replace WBS. The pod husk Might be usable like coir.
Okra. Easy to grow, drought resistant, when overgrown and dried becomes "woody". Has seeds. Might be able to use the seeds to replace WBS. The woddy husks might be shredable/crushable to serve as a substrate.
Any kind of cereal grain and even wild harvested grass seeds would do better than a bean.
Fruit seeds would be interesting to test I think seone here has done pumpkin seeds but I dont know how the grow turned out
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LotKid
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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: natedawgnow] 1
#27964391 - 09/23/22 01:56 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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i switched to glass plates from plastic disposables
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B Traven
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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: LotKid]
#27964408 - 09/23/22 02:03 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
LotKid said: i switched to glass plates from plastic disposables
I'm on glass plates now, too, one thing I really didn't anticipate is how much I prefer them.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
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Zifozonke
Stranger


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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: natedawgnow] 1
#27964410 - 09/23/22 02:05 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Awesome thread... While there is always going to be waste in this hobby and there will always people who simply don't give a shit about it-here are a few things I do that at least make me feel a little better at the end of the day Conscious cultivation... Agar dishes Pasty plates/Mr.Alien no pour agar dishes These can be used multiple times over -Ive got some that I've had for over 3years still going fine-glass Petri's would obviously be the best but I use what Ive ready got & cringe at thinking of how many single use polyethylene dishes go to dump after only one round Syringes//needles Can also be reused perfectly after a quick clean and run thru PC cycle Grain bags (if you use them) Give them a quick wash after initial use & flip them inside out and use again for a fruiting bag Gloves Give them a good alcohol spray after a session and use again-Ill use a pair at least 2-3times before discarding Spent subs//contaminated grains Like @natedawgnow everything goes into compost pile-plants love this composted stuff And of course any used plastics//glass//paper//foil goes recycle bin
Keep it green
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B Traven
Stranger



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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: SymPlayTon]
#27965896 - 09/24/22 11:22 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SymPlayTon said: This is something have been thinking about as well. Using material that is easy to grow at my location.
Some ideas I have.
Black eye peas. I will test at the end of the season. It is easy to turn a handful into a gallon. Might be able to replace BRF in PF TEK. Might be able to replace WBS. The pod husk Might be usable like coir.
Okra. Easy to grow, drought resistant, when overgrown and dried becomes "woody". Has seeds. Might be able to use the seeds to replace WBS. The woddy husks might be shredable/crushable to serve as a substrate.
Yeah, it would be cool to grow something that could be used for both the grain and the bulk sub.
I guess the biggest issue is how nutritious the sub is (the reason legumes might not be ideal, I guess). But I wonder if one could just compost it and make artificial "manure."
Or go for the triple whammy: grow something that can be used as the grain source, the sub source, and the fuel source to run a rocket stove for sterilization and pasteurizing.
I think that might be my first long-term experiment whenever I can get around to it....
I have a patch of sunchokes (jerusalem artichokes) in my yard, these things are indestructible. If you don't dig up the tubers, then they just keep regrowing and spreading. The stalks can be cut down multiple times in a season. And they dry out to form a nice fibrous straw, similar to okra. Also form nice late-season flowers for pollinators. Only thing is, I do think that they're a bit too nutritious. So some combination of composting and pastuerizing would probably be necessary.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
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schpat
psychesomadelic



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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: B Traven] 1
#27968333 - 09/26/22 12:44 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Could you grow wheat and use it as a triple threat?
I'm thinking: Seeds for the spawn Dried stalks for the sub Dried shredded, wet and the compressed and dried as a fuel source (like those ecologs)
But also using any waste product that you can find will also up your sustainability. Sawdust can be used as a sub and can also be compressed into ecologs.
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Grind365
AlwaysGrinding

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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: B Traven] 1
#27968338 - 09/26/22 01:03 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
LotKid said: i switched to glass plates from plastic disposables
Quote:
B Traven said:
Quote:
LotKid said: i switched to glass plates from plastic disposables
I'm on glass plates now, too, one thing I really didn't anticipate is how much I prefer them.
I shall join you both. You know to do my part. I will still run plastics but alot less. It's pretty damn easy to blow through a case of 500 plates. Hopefully the next case will be the last I have to buy for many years.
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LotKid
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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: Grind365] 1
#27968632 - 09/26/22 09:14 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Glass plates also help you from having too many plates laying around. It gets much easier to throw old stuff out when you need the dish for something fresh.
I'm actually about to go clean some out so i can make some fresh plates for transfers.
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ChildOfTheMoon
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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: LotKid]
#27968718 - 09/26/22 10:34 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
LotKid said: i switched to glass plates from plastic disposables
Any good places to buy them from that aren’t Amazon? Trying to avoid buying from Bezos like the plague.
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Egon_Spengler
Ever lurkin never workin



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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: Zifozonke]
#27968776 - 09/26/22 11:12 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zifozonke said: Gloves Give them a good alcohol spray after a session and use again-Ill use a pair at least 2-3times before discarding
Additionally there are of course gloves designed for multiple uses. Think dish gloves, mechanics’ nitrile gloves etc.
I’m enthused about this thread, and I look forward to reading more about what people reuse or repurpose for use in this hobby.
I’ve spent weeks trying to find a suitable lid that will allow me to reuse the small glass containers of Oui branded Yoplait yogurt as an agar dish.
It’s a kind of pricey brand my lady enjoys as an infrequent treat (I’m convinced a huge percentage of the higher price is directly related to the shipping costs associated with the glass containers themselves). And we recycle them. But I’d much rather re-use them. The problem is the glass containers are basically tiny vases packaged with sealed foil lids that you peel off. There are no threads for screwing down any typical jar lid, it’s just a smooth lip. Plus they’re a weird size, unusually small diameter. I can find nothing easily available to me that can be repurposed as a PC-able lid that would let me turn these things into LC jars, media bottles or agar plates. There are commercially available lids sold by the yoplait website, designed to fit these vessels and be re-used, but they’re not the correct plastic for PC temps.
I know there are No-lid foil teks etc. but one, this seems unlikely to be consistently successful. Two, the generation of more waste goes directly against the spirit of this thread, and my personal interest in limiting the amount of trash I produce.
Anybody out there ever find something reusable as a lid for these things?

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mind.at.large
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Re: Sustainable Cultivation Practices- an Unofficial Thread [Re: LotKid] 1
#27968780 - 09/26/22 11:17 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Great thread idea! One thing to point out that we all seem to recognize, is that production of anything leads to waste. Finding a truly sustainable, closed loop, means of producing is difficult. It can possibly be done on a small scale, but then you need to factor in all the waste that was produced in just procuring resources to setup the system. Modern society seems to have this desire to find a sustainable way to continue our high scale production of everything, and I just don’t see that happening. I see the solution as just not producing so much stuff, globally. I say all that because I feel like true sustainability goes far beyond what modern society hopes it is. Eliminating plastic straws and single use plastic water bottles barely even touches the true problem. It’s definitely a step in the right direction, which I’m all for, but the issue is so much more in depth than that.
I like growing mushrooms. I hate producing waste. But I like growing mushrooms more than I hate producing waste, so I’ll keep growing mushrooms. But finding ways to reduce that waste while continuing to grow mushrooms is definitely a goal of mine, so I appreciate threads like this and other like minded people.   
But here are some of my thoughts on how us mushroom growers can reduce our waste and work towards sustainability:
Coir- such a great substrate! I love it and use it for cubes due to its ease of prep, water holding capacity, and productivity. Unfortunately, it gets shipped halfway across the world to get to me, wasting countless resources in the shipping process. Manure and straw, despite being inferior substrates and requiring true pasteurization, are locally abundant and insanely cheaper. Like I said, I prefer coir for the reasons listed above, but if the goal is sustainable production, coir is not the way to do it. The fact that this new Oregon legalization does not allow manure based cultivation is ridiculous and will further strain the limited coir supply.
Reusing substrate- over the last year or so I’ve played around with reusing all my substrates, from coir/verm to sawdust/wheat bran, I’ve had success reusing all of it. You need to factor in the resterilizing process, which drains resources, but I’m assuming that it is less draining than just buying new stuff. Check out https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27768853
Cold water soak pasteurization- I’ve had success using anaerobic pasteurization of straw, which is essentially soaking it underwater for 24 hours. This method requires no heat, nor additives to pasteurize. Disclaimer: I have noticed higher contam rates with this method compared to heat pasteurization.
Reusing myco bags- I have reused myco bags many times with success. Mostly what I do is use a new bag for grain spawn, collect those bags after spawning and use them as substrate bags for either actives or gourmets.
I’m excited to see what this thread turns into!
-------------------- Mind's Easy Bag 2 Bag Grain Transfers Endless Sub Tek ...the doll's trying to kill me and the toaster's been laughing at me...
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