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Nordicul
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Top Fruiting Q's
#27942130 - 09/09/22 03:18 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hi, I’m a newbie and have not so far had much success with my shoeboxes, putting it down to bacterial spawn issues.
A couple of weeks ago I was told to try “top fruiting” suspect jars, till then I had never heard of this. Previously I’d just dumped em. So I added a bit of coir to the tops , misted covered with a zip lock and waited.
Within ten days I’d pins and now they’ve exploded in the jars going in all directions 😀
A few Questions.
1.How will I ever harvest these? 2. If I’d blacked out the walls would it have made side pins reach for the stars instead of the bottom of jar? 3. On a jar in which I first broke up the top two inches it has yet to show signs of pinning. Is there anything else I should have done to get pins to have formed on top rather than the side.? 4.Does room Temp have a major effect on fruiting rate as my shoeboxes are set in a room a couple of degrees cooler temp with equally suspect spawn a week or so earlier have yet to pin.? 5. Given how well these jars seem to be fruiting, in future could I just empty suspect spawn into a shoe box and NOT mix it with the coir but only a sprinkle a bit on top, treat it in same manner as the jars and get similar results.? Tia


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smalltalk_canceled
Babnik



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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: Nordicul]
#27942145 - 09/09/22 03:28 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's definitely the downside of coiring the top of a grain a jar, the fruits will not obey unless you create perfect conditions. I haven't figured it out yet.
Harvesting the first flush of a bad jar usually means that it will mold after. Usually
What you can try, is splitting up the worst jars. Split them in two by taking the top half to some small sub in a dubtup, and coir the bottom 50% of the jar
This usually works very well for me.
The proposed explanation is that bacterial jars are most fucked in the bottom half because of moisture and gravity.
And that breaking up *completely* a jar of bacterial spawn is worse than taking the best part and leaving the rest unbroken.
The top part usually puts out:

How much coir to use in a normal top fruit is a pretty difficult question that I will leave to others.
At any rate, narrow mouth jars are always a pain to Harvest "in vitro" (fruiting in har) so that's a normal consequence of the situation.
If anyone has a surefire Tek to harvest these kind of jars perfectly, I'm looking for it too
-------------------- Willpower is the one true virtue
  
Edited by smalltalk_canceled (09/09/22 03:32 PM)
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Nordicul
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Thanks Smalltalk_canceled, for the quick and very helpful reply.
So much to learn, but so good to know that so many on here are willing to share their knowledge and as they say "So many ways to skin a cat".
Be interesting to hear how others manage any narrow necked jars?
Again thanks
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Nordicul
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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: Nordicul]
#27960629 - 09/21/22 12:39 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ok Guys, I had some "sucess" top fruiting, to salvage the last bacterial batch ,(see pics above) but it was messy job harvesting them.
It's now happened again and I have another five grain jars showing clear signs of bacterial contamination, well at least i can recognize it now.
I don't want to try spawnning them using the coir shoebox route, as when done before with bacterial spawn, they took an eternity to produce only a few measely fruits.
Q, Could I just try scooping out all the grain into a shoebox, not mixing with coir but covering it in a light layer of coir, and treating it like the top fruiting jar, ie plastic bag and misting daily? Or is there any other approach to salvaging jars?
I am also working to improve the causes of the contamination. Tia
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smalltalk_canceled
Babnik



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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: Nordicul]
#27960774 - 09/21/22 02:19 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Show your inoculated grain jars and also how they look moisture wise before transfer
It could be your grains are too wet, even pretty clean transfers can end up bacterial then
-------------------- Willpower is the one true virtue
  
Edited by smalltalk_canceled (09/21/22 02:20 PM)
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Nordicul
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Thanks Smalltalk_canceled,
Sorry I did not make myself clear I have 5 fully colonised jars that I want to fruit but they are all showing definite signs of bacterial contamination.
My Q was not about causes, though I know this is fundamental BUT what to do with the jars I have just now.
As i said the top fruiting approach had some merit though difficult to harvest with my narrow necked jars…. Looking for similar alternative approach like I suggested above.
Thanks
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BoySage
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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: Nordicul]
#27960955 - 09/21/22 04:18 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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How about some pictures? Let's see them.
-------------------- New to growing and new to the forum, advanced at enjoying
Appreciate all the input I can get. Willing to ask (possibly annoying) questions, but also good at taking shit.
Thanks fam!
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Nordicul
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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: BoySage]
#27961133 - 09/21/22 05:27 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoySage said: How about some pictures? Let's see them.
Going to take me till tomorrow to get pics, could you just take my word on it,? If they are as I say....what would you say?
Thanks
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BoySage
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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: Nordicul]
#27961226 - 09/21/22 06:00 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not much I can say here, lacking the experience myself. I'll share what I gather from reading and logic:
- The problem with spawning bacterial grain is that by breaking shit up, it puts additional stress on the mycelium for having to re-colonize the substrate, hence contamination might take over. - Harvesting these jars is a pain and same goes for getting out your grain spawn in one piece.
Seeing as you don't want the messy harvest parts you have two option (from my inexperienced perspective mind you):
1. Try harder to create proper surface conditions, meaning: you'll get pins on the side, because the mycelium has pulled the grain together within the jar and has created small gaps, where moisture gathers and evaporates with the introduction of FAE, thus inducing pinning and proper growing conditions to boot. I'm not entirely sure how you'd get around that, but just thinking on the fly, I'd try to get the sides properly sealed with coir/verm, so only the top has fruiting conditions, but I'm not certain whether that can be achieved. Maybe also keep the top layer thinner, to further encourage growth there.
2. According to what the previous commenters said, try some sort of spawning to substrate, maybe only using those grains least affected by bacteria (which would be, as stated, likely near the bottom due to moisture+gravity). Perhaps that could work, simply downsizing your operation from a showbox to some smaller container. That being said you might have enough spawn for a shoebox.
Pictures could still be useful, because maybe it isn't that bad and you can get away with it. I myself spawned 3 MSS to grain bags at a ratio of between 2 and 3:1. First tub yielded over 400g wet, after which I dumped it, because I noobishly fiddled too much with it (probably could've gotten a lot more out of it). Tub 2 is starting to produce, has a great pinset and I expect multiple flushes. Tub 3 currently colonizing and looking good (can ofc still go down the drain).
Well at least I've put some effort into it, hope this isn't total crap I'm spewing and it helps you somehow. Good luck!
-------------------- New to growing and new to the forum, advanced at enjoying
Appreciate all the input I can get. Willing to ask (possibly annoying) questions, but also good at taking shit.
Thanks fam!
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Nordicul
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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: BoySage]
#27961270 - 09/21/22 06:24 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks BoySage.
You’ve put a lot of time and effort into that answer, a lot to consider, I have to sleep on it. Will get back to you tomorrow.
Again thanks
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Nordicul
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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: Nordicul]
#27961980 - 09/22/22 06:13 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hi All,
As requested see pics of jars in question. These are Uk Kilner jars 580ml/19.5 US Fl oz. The weight of spawn within is 300 gm. avg.



Maybe hard to see in pics but I see, ...excess moisture, some naked grains pressed on glass, mixed up spikey rhizo mycelium, and creamy shit!...but hey they are all mine and I love the little darlings.
Without going into here, the causes and fixes of the contamination I want to figure how best to deal with these Gals.
The jars are certainly a pain, starting out again I'd have gotten wide mouth jars which would have allowed me to get the block out more easily for harvesting or tipping into zip locks. One suggestion I liked given by Smalltalk_canceled was to split em, putting the top half to a dub tub on some coir substrate or putting the top half back in the jar with coir sub in the bottom. My next jar buys be wide mouthed.
But I've decided I'm going to try splitting a few jars vertically with a knife, scooping or pouring out half the spawn, maybe discarding the bottom stuff if it looks, smells or feels iffy. Adding capacity coir sub into the empty half and zipping over the top till ready to fruit.
I've had most success, fun and pleasure from watching small jar grows so I'm also going to locate more containers, and do my spawning coir mixes into them. Might even try a Zip Lock bag.
I'm not sure though why my small container grows bloomed and my shoeboxes didn't ?
Could it have been because they were in the house, where I daily talked to them, watched them grow and carefully misted as needed. While my shoebox ones suffered lonely neglect in the garden shed?
Again thanks to all for comments. I'll post updates.
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Camera93
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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: Nordicul]
#27962015 - 09/22/22 06:51 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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what filters are you using on those lids? Oats can look kinda sketch especially if you don't have them properly dry prior to sterilizing.
I agree that these look bacterial, that could have came from the grain prep, the inoculant and/or during the act of inoculating.
I vote top fruit, narrow mouth jars be damned. Better a difficult harvest than a moldy sub right?
I don't think it'll be too bad in the end. Worse case you pull what you can from the surface and use a butter knife or something to break up the spawn a bit to harvest the rest. Or....you could....smash that jar as a sacrifice to the MushGods
-------------------- All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I’m fine.
Whatever you decide won’t really impact our survival
Close your eyes, and do the best that you can
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Nordicul
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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: Camera93]
#27962066 - 09/22/22 07:49 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hi Camera93, Filters are Microppose adhesive Lid Filters, feel happier with them than micropore.
Grain I should have said is Rice/ WBR....it starts as par cooked ....I just simmer from boiling till grain still has a bite soft inside but not burst. Quickly cooled by rinsing then spread out, turned left till touch dried. Jarred and PC’d for 90 mins....I know room for different approaches there.
Ok thanks going to go for it now
Thanks
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smalltalk_canceled
Babnik



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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: Nordicul]
#27962215 - 09/22/22 09:38 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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drier oats my friend , it is a good way to go
No rings of water pressing against glass, no pooling water bottom, super dry exterior, no stickiness.
i am 100% a supporter of your grains being too wet pre-inoculation
-------------------- Willpower is the one true virtue
  
Edited by smalltalk_canceled (09/22/22 09:41 AM)
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BoySage
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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: Nordicul]
#27962818 - 09/22/22 04:47 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nordicul said:
Could it have been because they were in the house, where I daily talked to them, watched them grow and carefully misted as needed. While my shoebox ones suffered lonely neglect in the garden shed?
Personally I like to believe that such things make a difference. Modern science of course doesn't like this very much, but they do have a word for it I believe: "Placebo"  Of course there are some basic things to attend to as well.
-------------------- New to growing and new to the forum, advanced at enjoying
Appreciate all the input I can get. Willing to ask (possibly annoying) questions, but also good at taking shit.
Thanks fam!
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Teaboomboom
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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: BoySage]
#28002166 - 10/16/22 06:04 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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When top fruiting with grain spawn bag, first break up the brick and mix with coir mix and reseal bag? I have a couple bags that have contam and would like to top fruit to at least harvest some fruit. Any advice would be appreciated!
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KROM
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No, don’t break it up. Breaking it up will potentially weaken the myc and spread around the contaminants. Place hydrated coir on top, and let it fruit.
--------------------
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CultiV8
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Re: Top Fruiting Q's [Re: KROM]
#28002291 - 10/16/22 07:30 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Cut the entire top of the bag open and dump hydrated substrate in. Tamp and level, re-seal or tape bag closed, and then cut a slit near the filter patch for FAE
Edited by CultiV8 (10/16/22 07:38 PM)
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