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Listed
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Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation
#27951994 - 09/15/22 08:11 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Hello people,
this is my first post here.
After being successful with a new bulk method taking advantage in efficiency of single-speared sealed vacuum bags with original dark rice powder / vermiculite base, I will take my studies further on mushroom growing in indoor cultivation methods. Thus mimicing the nature I find the best way and assume when finding an environment that would be suitable for benefiting for the culture and less for the uninvited habitats.
After watching this Fungus: The 3rd Kingdom documentary
I inevitably keep thinking of finding a liverwort that would have a symbiotic relationship in the growing environment with the Golden Teachers.
I need your help here, - Does someone have or does the forum have a list of generally recognized symbiotic organisms with mushrooms/ specific species?
-Is there a liverwort recognized to found a symbiotic partnership with any species of cubes and promoting growth/yield?
- Is lichen and moss out of context when facilitating the second growing substrate? Covering coco with moss would keep the humidity stable, risk of watering the mycelium in zero and mold away. Species of lichen are found on tree bark and do consist of high quantities of antioxidants the medical research on cancer medication have shown as by sharing their antibacterial properties with trees. The lichen are found growing in healthy forests on the bark of trees, pines and spruce. If lichen grows on wood bark, it must the most intuitively grow on coco coir.
I want to get rid of mold and probably it can be done by quite natural ways after all the sterilizing practices. This idea came to my mind when observing a vacuum bag where the mold and mycelium where fighting for their living environment against each other. The mold isn't the end of a culture. I think it might be a strengthening factor for the mushroom. It can be washed away as the fungi is a living battling creature. I was surprised how the mushroom was really alive and totally won the battle and, to put it in words, carved a 3d shaped area from the substrate (rye seed, for experimental purposes) for itself while rest of it was for the mold. It definitely had a unique "shape of body" created by itself so to speak. The substrate smelled really bad so I was prepared to use gloves and a facemask with my glasses. With a spoon I gently carved the smelling part away until the white mycelium appeared. Doing all this in the bathroom, I had the shower to wash all the organic excess away from the mycelium, pretty much with the analogy of dunk and roll as the mycelium appeard to be a bit dry after leaving it to "work out" after discovering the mold in the bag. End of the story is that I broke it gently in little less than fist sized pieces and it produced mushrooms quite generously and then faded away. My opinion is that with nutrients and more natural environment it would have lived much longer carving those shapes in the dirt 🙂
To mention, liverwort grows also from spores and lichen grows also on bedrock atleast here where I live, like they mentioned about mushrooms in the documentary.
There you have it, the first post - dream big etc. I hope to see you guys sharing your thoughts about this experiment in search of intelligent, further developed cultivation of mushrooms.
Best,
L
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DERRAYLD
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: Listed] 1
#27952220 - 09/16/22 12:06 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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May I ask why you're choosing this route vs normal sterile practice and the methods we advocate here for cultivation?
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Listed
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: DERRAYLD]
#27952930 - 09/16/22 02:41 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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The sterilized practices are in use already. What I am looking for are more nutrients for the mycelium to grow through symbiotic behaviour with plants if there is none and to find out ways of creating the environment more like in your garden or the natural habitat the strain has once taken from. I see that there are practices which promote the cultures livelyhood and which don't.
If I would find a plantable moss from the nature that would keep the mold away through antibacterial characters, which the mushroom would sustain or even benefit, I would definitely have it in the grow box when fruiting. Edit: I find this also less labourish but also developed practice if the smallest risk of contamination could be excluded by this sort of action.
1 + 1 = > 2
Edited by Listed (09/16/22 02:50 PM)
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Crashexx
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: Listed]
#27994573 - 10/12/22 12:13 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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That's an interesting idea, have you found answers or made any experiments?
I'm just as much a plant nut as I am a mushroom enthusiast, and I'm always looking to simplify my methods, as in preferring to use resources I can find around my home. There's plenty of liquen here, I'm currently using Usnea for medicinal purposes.
At some point I might find the time to experiment with antifungal and antibacterial properties of different plants and liquens for agar, grain and substrate. However if something is antifungal I guess it would inhibit the growth of mycelium as well as mold?
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bakedbeings
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: Crashexx] 1
#27995221 - 10/12/22 01:04 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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if some cube myc had the choice of landing in a forest or a jar of sterilized grain i think we all know which it would choose
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rumfor69
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: bakedbeings]
#27996147 - 10/12/22 10:12 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Isn't antibacterial, anti-BACTERIAL not antimold. That'd be an antifungal. Anything that's bad for mold is bad for any fungus.
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Crashexx
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: rumfor69]
#27996616 - 10/13/22 09:50 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
rumfor69 said: Isn't antibacterial, anti-BACTERIAL not antimold. That'd be an antifungal. Anything that's bad for mold is bad for any fungus.
Yep but apparently some plants are both anti-bacterial and anti-fungal.
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rumfor69
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: Crashexx]
#27996618 - 10/13/22 09:50 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Well you definitely wouldn't want anything anti-fungal
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bakedbeings
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: rumfor69]
#27996689 - 10/13/22 10:44 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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i wonder how universal antifungals are because i once accidentally bought oats coated with an antifungal and the myc ripped through it. with antibiotics there are certain keys for certain locks so it could be the same thing
idk im a dumbass and i will research this no further. pressure cooking is pretty fucking broad spectrum
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rumfor69
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: bakedbeings] 1
#27996728 - 10/13/22 11:17 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Nature sucks at efficiently growing piles of cubes on its own. I wouldn't ever wanna simulate it. I want industrial cookie cutter efficiency all stamped out identical tubs raging as hard as they can till the wheels fall off lol
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bakedbeings
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: rumfor69]
#27996739 - 10/13/22 11:23 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Crashexx
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: rumfor69]
#28000480 - 10/15/22 02:44 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
rumfor69 said: Nature sucks at efficiently growing piles of cubes on its own. I wouldn't ever wanna simulate it. I want industrial cookie cutter efficiency all stamped out identical tubs raging as hard as they can till the wheels fall off lol
That's okay as a goal, but not everyone wants the same. I want to grow my own mushrooms on a near zero budget with resources I find around the place I live. Not because I believe that will bring the largest amount of mushrooms (it won't) but because that just happen to be the rules I've set up for myself. I used to spend thousands of Euros to order fancy equipment abroad for other hobbies I had and have pledged to not do that anymore. Also, don't let nature hear you think it sucks at growing stuff. It has been growing all sorts of things for way longer than you have. (No offense, just joking. I'm a hippie and can't help it)
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bakedbeings
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: Crashexx]
#28000498 - 10/15/22 03:03 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crashexx said:
Quote:
rumfor69 said: Nature sucks at efficiently growing piles of cubes on its own. I wouldn't ever wanna simulate it. I want industrial cookie cutter efficiency all stamped out identical tubs raging as hard as they can till the wheels fall off lol
That's okay as a goal, but not everyone wants the same. I want to grow my own mushrooms on a near zero budget with resources I find around the place I live. yeah thats pretty much what we are going for too. Not because I believe that will bring the largest amount of mushrooms (it won't) but because that just happen to be the rules I've set up for myself. I used to spend thousands of Euros to order fancy equipment abroad for other hobbies I had and have pledged to not do that anymore. Also, don't let nature hear you think it sucks at growing stuff. It has been growing all sorts of things for way longer than you have. (No offense, just joking. I'm a hippie and can't help it) the point is, even in the perfect biome you will find an extremely low density of fruiting bodies. "nature" is an abstraction. what you see when you walk outside is countless organisms fighting over resources. if you want to grow one of those organisms, you need to give it exclusive access to some resources. thats all mush cult is
you arent the first person here to have this kind of idea. there are legit ways to grow natchy but between you and me they are more expensive. like you could buy a pasture and goats and FEED them spores
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Edited by bakedbeings (10/15/22 05:02 PM)
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rumfor69
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: bakedbeings]
#28000621 - 10/15/22 04:37 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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but feed...not feet
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bakedbeings
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: rumfor69]
#28000653 - 10/15/22 05:04 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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lol fixed, thanks
you feet one spore to a goat and thats all anyone remembers about you
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rumfor69
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: bakedbeings]
#28000693 - 10/15/22 05:26 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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🦶 ➡️ 🐐
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luteofolius 2.0
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: rumfor69]
#28003047 - 10/17/22 12:14 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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That depends because some antibiotics allow fungi to grow and keep bacteria at bay if present. Gentamicin sulfate is one I use.
As far as the op, I don't think there is any information on liverworts having associations with fungi other than mycorrhizal ones through coevolution. For what your wanting to work Id bet you'd have to synthesize the active ingredients in your liverwort, usnea, or some other (antibiotic producing organism) to the substrate, to allow the effects of the antibiotic to work unless the plants require being alive to produce the chemical I don't see why you don't just add something like hydrogen peroxide and alcohol to your perlite.
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bakedbeings
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: luteofolius 2.0]
#28003048 - 10/17/22 12:16 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
some antibiotics allow fungi to grow and keep bacteria at bay if present
antibiotics are not antifungals
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luteofolius 2.0
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: bakedbeings]
#28003055 - 10/17/22 12:26 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I hate to say it but the only difference between an antifungal and an antibiotic is dosage when we are explicitly referring to natural antibiotics created by imperfect fungi or plants. Antibiotics do kill mold as well. However bacteria don't have the tolerance for it that fungi do and I assume that's due to how bacteria are built if you will.
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luteofolius 2.0
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: luteofolius 2.0]
#28003059 - 10/17/22 12:30 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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It's funny that usnea is being brought up. I'm actually friends with someone that is trying to extract usnic acid for medical use, and the first thing I thought of was: can I powder it and put in in agar to ward off bacteria? I guess to answer the ops question again I would say that we already use antibiotics created from organisms as an aid in fungi culture, for example Gentamicin is naturally produced by the bacterium Micromonospora purpurea and is used in fungi culture
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luteofolius 2.0
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: luteofolius 2.0]
#28003061 - 10/17/22 12:31 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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If you Google the discovery of penicillin you will see that we humans have known about antibiotics for quite some time. However use in our field is relatively new as in the last 50 60 years
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rumfor69
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: luteofolius 2.0]
#28003104 - 10/17/22 01:18 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Bacteria in agar is so frickin easy to get rid of through technique alone without any of all that stuff. Just a waste of time and money imo lol
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bakedbeings
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: rumfor69]
#28003125 - 10/17/22 01:32 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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luteofolius 2.0
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: rumfor69]
#28004575 - 10/18/22 11:48 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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It works really good for cloning wild specimens although you are right that it can be avoided, I find it helpful in certain conditions
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Crashexx
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: luteofolius 2.0]
#28004792 - 10/18/22 02:18 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
luteofolius 2.0 said: It's funny that usnea is being brought up. I'm actually friends with someone that is trying to extract usnic acid for medical use, and the first thing I thought of was: can I powder it and put in in agar to ward off bacteria? I guess to answer the ops question again I would say that we already use antibiotics created from organisms as an aid in fungi culture, for example Gentamicin is naturally produced by the bacterium Micromonospora purpurea and is used in fungi culture
I have been using usnea medicinally for a while, and today I brought home some Xerocomellus that I would like to try to grow on agar - it might respond well to usnea. Will make a batch of usnea agar (and maybe some varieties with different parts of oak?) as soon as I get to it and report about results.
Where I live I'd use the usnea for two reasons: availability and and possible use for mycoremediation and establishing mycorrhizal fungi after wildfire. To get an antibiotic I'd have to drive to town, or order stuff, and spend money and transport energy. Usnea and other liquen on the other hand grow in front of my doorstep.
Another plant I'll start experimenting with is cytisus monoflorus. Hillsides all over are covered with them after wildfire, and they'd make a cheap and easily available substrate. I plan to build some outdoor patches out of cytisus and horseshit - which I also happen to have. If you know of any useful info about that, please point me towards it.
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luteofolius 2.0
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: Crashexx]
#28005544 - 10/18/22 09:18 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I dont know directly 8f scotch broom would be a good candidate for mushroom substrate. I will say that I have witnessed various species of Galerina growing from the dead stalks of some scotch broom in my locality. Scotch broom sure has a lot of thick branches that would pulp nicely in a woodchipper. But there are a few things I don't know about it that may not work out. Maybe it conta8is something like conifer trees where in that fungi might not accept the medium. It would be worth a test.
It would be smart to chop them down, let them dry somewhere and hope they don't mold, let's say cure them in a way, and then chop it up fine. Mix that with your horse shit and I would imagine that to be full of lignin and also nitrogen from the horse shit. Not only that but scotch room is rather invasive to native plants so if you could find a use for it you would be helping mother nature out.
I like that idea.
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Boodoo
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: Listed]
#28226678 - 03/12/23 05:20 PM (10 months, 11 days ago) |
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From OpenAI:
"Pseudomonas putida is a type of bacteria that can form a beneficial relationship with Psilocybe cubensis. Studies have shown that Pseudomonas putida can enhance the growth of Psilocybe cubensis under laboratory conditions by improving nutrient availability and increasing the bioavailability of organic compounds.
One study found that when Pseudomonas putida was co-cultured with Psilocybe cubensis, the bacterial cells colonized the surface of the fungal mycelium and produced organic acids and other compounds that increased the availability of nutrients, such as nitrogen and phosphorus, for the fungus. The presence of Pseudomonas putida also led to an increase in the production of some secondary metabolites, such as psilocybin, which is the psychoactive compound found in Psilocybe cubensis.
Overall, the relationship between Pseudomonas putida and Psilocybe cubensis is thought to be a mutualistic one, in which the bacteria provides essential nutrients and growth factors to the fungus in exchange for organic compounds and other nutrients. However, it is important to note that the exact nature of this relationship and its effects on the growth and development of Psilocybe cubensis in nature is not well understood and requires further research."
Not sure about it's availability for you though. It also said it forms relationship with plant roots but this will be to supplement other food sources in nature.
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ichnoguy
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Re: Symbiotic liverwort for Golden Teachers - the hunt for moldless cultivation [Re: luteofolius 2.0]
#28245577 - 03/25/23 03:42 AM (9 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
luteofolius 2.0 said: I hate to say it but the only difference between an antifungal and an antibiotic is dosage when we are explicitly referring to natural antibiotics created by imperfect fungi or plants. Antibiotics do kill mold as well. However bacteria don't have the tolerance for it that fungi do and I assume that's due to how bacteria are built if you will.
yes for some things, bacteria need the lower dose and virus need the stronger one than kills fungus?
but a some are selective, so probably a big problem that we dont know anything about is viruses.
To op its a cool idea i think you can find benefitial organism if you test the substrates of healthy mushrooms in the wild. Check the tissue on the outside of the mushrooms, biodiversity study of healthy and unhealthy environments etc everything has its symbiots
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