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OfflineSeussA
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Learning from a trip
    #2794909 - 06/15/04 01:50 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

There is a common thread that I see in lot of posts... somebody is tripping on mushroom's and has an enlightened experience... an understanding of how reality works...

My question: How valid are discoveries made while tripping?

On one hand, for anybody that has experienced them, they are very real. There are also a lot of similarities in the experiences between different peoples, times, settings, and cultures.

On the other hand, the experience and discoveries were made under the influence of a mind altering substance. If my tripping mind comes to some realization as to how reality works, is this realization valid to my non-tripping mind?


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Offlinefilthysock
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Re: Learning from a trip [Re: Seuss]
    #2794917 - 06/15/04 01:53 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

In my case its very valid.


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Magic mushrooms are not addictive, the shroomery is!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Learning from a trip [Re: Seuss]
    #2794918 - 06/15/04 01:54 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

That's a tough one...do mind-altering substances cause us yo lie to ourselves?

I think there are certainly things to be learned from a psychedelic experience, as there are things to learn from all experiences. For me, most of what I learn "from" psychedelics comes after the drug has worn off. Being able to have a separate mode of thought to compare to baseline helps define what "baseline" really is.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: Seuss]
    #2794943 - 06/15/04 02:06 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

the context of the realization may be very fleeting or abstract, but the realization is likely quite valid in its own context.

(it would be discriminatory to discount short lived realities or short lived realizations for their shortness)

many contexts do not port back to this thinner consensual reality, but we can get fluffed up in self importance about having had realizations which becomes a waste of time, we should be having them.

nice to accept shifting paradigms and to use that as a basis for new realization.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: Seuss]
    #2795004 - 06/15/04 02:26 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

There is a difference between insight and sheer delusion. Hallucinogens are conducive to both. Often times a vision has a personal insight for you. If you take it at face value it could become a delusion. The use of mushrooms for the purpose of insight must be conducted in the proper set and setting with the proper intentions. The higher the dose the better the chance, but set and setting are all important. Using them to further your fantasy life is not what I am talking about here. There is an experience that psychologist Abraham Maslow called self actualization, or as many of you have heard reference to, the peak experience. Buddhists call it being realized. It happens during certain drug experiences under the proper conditions and can also happen while engaging in high risk sports such as sky diving (done this and it works) and during extremely stressful situations such as engaging in combat. It frequently occurs during religious worship and at this time it assumes the identity of the religious experience because of the context. During these fleeting moments (sometimes a few hours) you will be granted insight into something you seek to understand. Many people come to understand their place in life or realize their potential. Usually much of this fades with time and you are left only with the kernel of the understanding you acheived. THIS determines if the understanding you gained is valid: Can you put it to practical use in increasing the quality of your life? If the answer is no then the understanding is not valid, but if the answer is yes then you have gained insight from the spirit world/unconcious/collective unconcious/whatever you want to call it. The acid (pardon the pun) test is IS IT PRACTICAL? When you come down from the mountain real life is still waiting for you at the bottom. This is my opinion and experience.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2795124 - 06/15/04 03:08 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

taken in context at face value is good
taken out of context it can be delusional, or coincidental.
the important thing is to keep attuning to what the context is.

many insights are private to moments that are not consensual
this significance is high in the tarot cards:
the FOOL and THE HANGED MAN.


how do you tell which fool is enlightened?
http://www.yhwh.com/Tarot/Tarot0.htm
http://www.yhwh.com/Tarot/Tarot12.htm


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: Seuss]
    #2795125 - 06/15/04 03:08 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I think there was a post exactly the same as this one called:
"Do mushrooms lie?"
I wrote my opinion there:

Quote:

In the maths that most of us are tought for example, there is this rule that you can not divide a number by zero. There is though an other kind of approach to this where you can divide by zero and when you do, all the basic rules and principles, everything changes and you end up with a whole new set of maths which at first seems pretty useless. But scientists have found that certain phenomena can be explained and put into formulae using these maths whereas using the standard maths you end up in a deadend.

Now without the psychedelic drugs, your mind works in a certain way (standard maths). When you use psychedelics, its chemistry balance is disturbed and some things get distorted like time or space or feelings and relative to the no-psychodrugs world, some things don't make sense. But some other things like the so called enlightment may be true even if we are using different chemistry balanve (different maths).




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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2795250 - 06/15/04 03:35 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

> There is a difference between insight and sheer delusion.

Yes, but how do we tell the difference? Let us pretend that while I am tripping I have some kind of insight that allows me to perform miricles, heal the sick, etc. While in this state, I realize the negative impact that doing such acts will have, and choose not to do anything. After I sober up, I can remember the feeling but not the mechanics involved. Was I delusional?


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: Shroomerious]
    #2795298 - 06/15/04 03:46 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I really like your theory on this.. it is a very interesting concept.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: Seuss]
    #2795313 - 06/15/04 03:50 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I would say that if you noticed that you had performed the miracles, it would be grand, but if you were just hollering around that you could do this or that, it would just be mental indigestion.

simmilar for most prophecy.

the miracles can be quite minor, and in any case the events are not realizations any longer once the realizer is out of context, i.e. when you can no longer access the insight or perform the miracles.

like trying to walk after an amputation. without prosthetics etc.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: Seuss]
    #2795332 - 06/15/04 03:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

If, while tripping, you decided you could heal through your touch alone and you did not perform an empirical test to show your hypothesis viable then it was a delusion. No insight is viable unless it serves a purpose. An insight that has no practical application does not exist except in the mind of the guy who thought it up. The ability to put into practice what we learn and make our thought material is the difference between a philosopher and a shaman. Sitting around and coming up with cool abstract concepts is certainly fun, but not really worth much except as an entertaining social activity.


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (06/15/04 03:59 PM)


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Offlineentiformatie
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Re: Learning from a trip [Re: Seuss]
    #2795333 - 06/15/04 03:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I suggest waiting till your sober, and tyhink twice about your revelations. Don't take them as certain. I've had life-changing and certainly liberating experiences and thoughts while tripping, but I had myself convinced of some ridiculous shit sometimes.

Remember one thing: You are NOT God.


--------------------
/opinion
.sean


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2795365 - 06/15/04 04:06 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Oh yes, redgreenvines, the fool has his head in the clouds looking for some revelation from heaven while stepping off a cliff. The hanged man knows exactly where he is and is enlightened from it because he sees reality as it is. Just my point. Those cards are clever never really paid attention to them until now.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2795381 - 06/15/04 04:10 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

the fool and the hanged man are both misunderstood by the public.
the fool is tripping endlessly into the unformed abyss of creation
mind empty of any "revelations"
it's the best trip.


(also agree with shroomerious theory with math code)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2795400 - 06/15/04 04:15 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

...all I know is he better watch where he is going better or he is in for a big fall...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2795612 - 06/15/04 05:35 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

yes, hueheu,
as we all are if
we feel the need to "believe" or "prove" other than what is.

all of creation is
happenning at such a pace

be careful
be gentle, and what you don't understand you can still admire, no need to control.

I kinda think that would be the downfall of wanting to know if something is true or real, then next comes an impulse to meddle or dominate.

best to let it be.


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Anonymous

Re: Learning from a trip [Re: Seuss]
    #2796060 - 06/15/04 08:20 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Over the years, I (we) have made many, many 'discoveries' stone cold sober that were foolish or wrong.

In other words, things are kind of messy whether you're tripping or not.

Also, we are not so used to these mental extensions and what they may reveal. The experience is new to us, all of us. Its a kind of lost art/science for us. I imagine it will take time to sort things out.

I'm sure you know this Seuss but I'll say it anyway: Volunteer for a study. Take a class. Read a book. Discover some tools that you can take with you on your journeys to help sort things out.

2 cents

edit: 'course, if you just want to have fun and not learn a dag'd nab't thing, I say shine on!


Edited by Anonymous (06/15/04 08:34 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2796178 - 06/15/04 09:13 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Your getting to esoteric for me. I didn't understand a word of what you just said. I ain't real smart so I need it plain I guess. Bufo,it seems to me that meditation, sweatlodges, and the vision quest are all more precise tools than hallucinogens due to the fact that more control is retained. Hallucinogens are an excellant quick in, and can produce a mystical type experience with little preparation for an experienced user. I have a great fondness for them, but my use is now limited to certain occasions not frequently. There was a time a few years back when my experimentation with plant sacraments was much more frequent, but now it is just 2 or 3 times a year. To use a sacrament too frequently mocks it I now feel. If I want entertainment, though, I read a book, play a good video game (Doom III yes!!!), or go fly fishing. That is my 2 cents, but because I get long winded it is more like a nickel.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2796310 - 06/15/04 09:57 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

or go fly fishing

I used to love to go to Montana and fly fish, but I never caught a single fly.  :mad:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Learning from a trip - more matter of fact - changes [Re: Swami]
    #2796454 - 06/15/04 10:27 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I cheated and tied a fake one to the end of my line so others would think I was successfull. They got these cool hooks on them too so you can hang them on your vest.


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